Eagles of The Hobbit (Spoilers)

[MammothBlade]

Really?

Of course this is technically the first time it happened, but come on.

Why not just ride the eagles to the end spot? Or does Gandalf just like taking his time?

1. Read the book
2. Read the book
3. READ THE BOOK!

 

[Soviet Heavy]

1. Suit thyself.

2. Doesn't stop it from being true though.

3. If that is what is said in the movie, fine(have not seen it myself yet). However, unless I'm much mistaken that is not how it went in the book. They knew Smaug was there, and they wanted revenge. But as killing a dragon is hardly an easy feat, they settled to stealing from him instead. Not the best thoughtout plan, but they are Dwarves. Don't exactly have the best history of decision making("Hey, let's mine to the deepest part of the Earth! Nothing bad could possibly happen!").

Actually, that's pretty much exactly how it went down.

The justification in the book is that Thorin and company have fallen on incredibly hard times, and are pretty much hovering above the poverty line. Gandalf implies that they've been mining coal to make ends meet, which for Dwarves of the Erebor line would be incredibly demeaning.

So the plan for them is basically to steal a load of gold, and not be poor anymore. While they grumble about getting revenge on Smaug and not having Erebor anymore, their only real plan seems to be steal a bunch of gold, and see what happens from there.

Partly why I'm nervous about the film: apparently the justification has been changed more along the lines of 'trying to reclaim their homeland'. If that's the case, why do they settle on using a hobbit as a burglar? In the book it makes sense, as their only real aim is burglary. But if you're planning on retaking your mountain fortress home from a dragon, surely a company of soldiers and a ranger or two would make far more sense?

Especially annoying as in the book, Gandalf explicitly squashes the idea of trying to take back Erebor by force, claiming that all the heroes of note are either dead or difficult to find. Leaving petty theft and burglary as the only option available to the dwarves to get some of their heritage back. This whole "reclaim the homeland" angle sounds a bit forced, and rather out of keeping with the book's rather subversive, light-hearted take on fantasy tropes. Tolkien wrote the Hobbit in part as a sort of send up of heroic quests. Instead of a gallant knight on a heroic quest, the main characters are a bumbling everyman, a bunch of kleptomaniac dwarves, and a sour tempered old goat of a wizard.

4. As I recall Smaug was one of the last of the 'Great Dragons'. Not sure exactly what that means, but it's possible that there were weaker dragons about somewhere.

Smaug was the last of the Fire Drakes, the breed of dragons that could breathe fire. Cold drakes, dragons without the ability to fly or breathe fire, were apparently scattered here and there in the Iron Hills, according to supplementary Middle Earth material. Dangerous, certainly, but nowhere near the same level of threat as a flying, fire-breathing dragon.

If I recall the book, the actual plan was for Bilbo to retrieve the Arkenstone, which would give Thorin the political sway he needed to rally the Iron Hills and the Blue mountains to his cause. So while burglary was their primary focus, it was still only a means to an end for Thorin in his continuing quest to retake Erebor.

And the movie supports this. Bilbo is needed because Smaug is too used to the smell and sound of Dwarves for any of them to break in without him being on them in a heartbeat. Bilbo is alien to Smaug, and the Ring gave him the extra edge they needed.

Having just saw the film, they are really doing justice to the book. Gold is still a priority for the Dwarves, but they are playing up the "retake the homeland" bit, at least with the more noble Dwarves like Thorin, Balin and Dwalin. (By the way, I swear that Dwalin is played by the voice actor for the Scots in Medieval 2 Total War)

 

[tippy2k2]

Are you fucking serious...

The movie has been out for ONE FUCKING DAY and you're throwing spoilers into a title.

I didn't go into the thread to see that this was a LoTR thread; there is one movie I can think of that has eagles rescue the heroes and one prequel that just came out. It doesn't take a God damn rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together. Seriously...pretty please with sugar on top change your title.

EDIT: Alright, a Mod has talked me off the ledge (for now) but I still think it would be best if you change your title. Like it or not, this is a spoiler and there are plenty of people like me who avoid everything about this movie to get a distraction-free experience.

EDIT PART 2: I don't know if it was the Mod who asked nicely to have you change it or if you realized that it was a bit of a spoiler of your old title but I'll go ahead and say Thank You for changing your title. It maybe too late for Tippy2K2 but hopefully others will not share my fate (although Marter insists that this isn't a "I am your father!" mind blowing spoiler so hopefully the knowledge that you spoiled will not kill this movie for me).

 

[Maxtro]

It's amazing that people are getting so upset that they've been spoiled by knowing that an eagle rescue happens at some point in the movie.

I didn't say anything about when, where, why, who or how.

For all you know, Bilbo could be saved by an eagle while he's fighting the Witch-King in the first 10 minutes of the movie, which is a total lie by the way.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

I asked an eagle to give me a ride once, he just clawed and flew away... I assume the experience would the same in Middle Earth

 

[Xanadu84]

Being rescued by Eagles in Lord of the Rings was not a re-hash of the hobbit, it was a CALLBACK. It was a reference, an example of coming full circle. It works thematically. If you are upset that even if it works thematically it doesn't make sense...well...If you could escape from any situation by being evacuated by giant eagles, that's a trick you would probably fall back on pretty often

Hell, at work, Id use it a couple of times a week if I could.
Boss: "I need you to go through this stack of forms for..."
Me: :ives out the window and gets grabbed by a giant eagle.::

As for the argument of why didn't they just fly to Morodor with the ring...well, they went over this didn't they? Sauron had his giant lidless eye that forced everyone to hide if they didn't want to be watched. Flying to Mount Doom with the ring was the equivalent of tossing Sauron the One Ring. The only reason why 2 tiny, sneaky HOBBITS wern't seen while he was walking in semi-open GROUND was because an entire army was distracting Sauron. A GIANT EAGLE in the middle of the OPEN SKY would have been swarmed by ringwraiths before you could say, "Second Breakfast". But of course, once the ring was tossed into the crack of doom, Sauron didn't have the mojo to do anything except implode or whatever. So Giant Eagles were a reasonable extraction plan.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

Really?

Of course this is technically the first time it happened, but come on.

Why not just ride the eagles to the end spot? Or does Gandalf just like taking his time?

Thanks for posting spoilers in the title, everyone is going to love this.

Spoilers in the title? The title is very vague on purpose.

Even then its a three hour movie.

I didn't spoil anything because once again, I was very vague. Only those who seen it would know what I'm talking about.

No... I've not seen it and I knew what you were talking about.

This thread needs to be removed, and you need to grow some common sense. Before today I never knew people could devolve into becoming so idiotic.

Quite. You can't "say it's not a spoiler if you haven't seen it," that directly contradicts the definition of a spoiler.

(By the way, I swear that Dwalin is played by the voice actor for the Scots in Medieval 2 Total War)

Indeed, that is Graham McTavish. He's been in more than a few games actually, like Uncharted 2 and InFamous 2. His number one asset is clearly that sweet Scottish brogue.

OT:
Yes, the Eagles are an oft-discussed so-called "plot hole." Fortunately this forum has already proven that any reasonably intelligent person can come up with at least one reason why they aren't a feasible solution to every problem. Tolkien's own explanation is basically that Gandalf was a friend of the Eagles, having helped their leader Gwaihir once, and so they owed him a few favors. They weren't about to allow themselves to be exploited, they were just repaying a debt to the extent that they felt was appropriate. It's fantasy, you can allow for these kinds of idiosynchratic behaviors.

 

[Maxtro]

Being rescued by Eagles in Lord of the Rings was not a re-hash of the hobbit, it was a CALLBACK. It was a reference, an example of coming full circle.

It was a callback to the future since the LOTR movies came out first though technically happened afterwords.

It works thematically. If you are upset that even if it works thematically it doesn't make sense...well...If you could escape from any situation by being evacuated by giant eagles, that's a trick you would probably fall back on pretty often

Hell, at work, Id use it a couple of times a week if I could.
Boss: "I need you to go through this stack of forms for..."
Me: :ives out the window and gets grabbed by a giant eagle.::

Yeah getting saved by a giant eagle is a cool thing. But if you could get saved by one whenever you needed it, why not just ride an eagle to work everyday?

As for the argument of why didn't they just fly to Morodor with the ring...well, they went over this didn't they? Sauron had his giant lidless eye that forced everyone to hide if they didn't want to be watched. Flying to Mount Doom with the ring was the equivalent of tossing Sauron the One Ring. The only reason why 2 tiny, sneaky HOBBITS wern't seen while he was walking in semi-open GROUND was because an entire army was distracting Sauron. A GIANT EAGLE in the middle of the OPEN SKY would have been swarmed by ringwraiths before you could say, "Second Breakfast". But of course, once the ring was tossed into the crack of doom, Sauron didn't have the mojo to do anything except implode or whatever. So Giant Eagles were a reasonable extraction plan.

They still could have cut a lot of time out of the journey if they flew 3-4ths of the way.

This was is from the Wikipedia page somebody linked

---------------
The idea of the Eagles transporting the Ring to Mount Doom, or at least part of the way, is not discussed in The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien himself apparently never specifically addressed it, except in an oblique manner. In The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, he stated: "The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. [Gandalf] by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape." (Letter 210) In the DVD commentary for Peter Jackson's film adaptation of The Return of the King, Jackson and Fran Walsh joke that not using the Eagles to travel directly to Mount Doom was a plot hole, at which point Philippa Boyens angrily points out to them that the Flying Nazgûl would have intercepted them had they attempted this, and it simply became a common joke that it was a plot hole because the Flying Nazgûl were not introduced in the first film, a point to which Jackson and Walsh humbly conceded.

...

Different adaptations of Tolkien's books treated both the nature of the Eagles and their role in the plots with varying level of faithfulness to originals. The first scenario for an animated motion-picture of The Lord of the Rings proposed to Tolkien in 1957 was turned down because of several cardinal deviations, among which Humphrey Carpenter recorded that "virtually all walking was dispensed with in the story and the Company of the Ring were transported everywhere on the backs of eagles"

....

Needless to say, that would have been a very short movie.

(BTW I've yet to see a reason for why the Eagles didn't fly to the end destination in The Hobbit except for that Smaug might attack them.)

 

[Xanadu84]

Being rescued by Eagles in Lord of the Rings was not a re-hash of the hobbit, it was a CALLBACK. It was a reference, an example of coming full circle.

It was a callback to the future since the LOTR movies came out first though technically happened afterwords.

It works thematically. If you are upset that even if it works thematically it doesn't make sense...well...If you could escape from any situation by being evacuated by giant eagles, that's a trick you would probably fall back on pretty often

Hell, at work, Id use it a couple of times a week if I could.
Boss: "I need you to go through this stack of forms for..."
Me: :ives out the window and gets grabbed by a giant eagle.::

Yeah getting saved by a giant eagle is a cool thing. But if you could get saved by one whenever you needed it, why not just ride an eagle to work everyday?

I said that the eagle rescue in LORD OF THE RINGS was a callback. Sure, there wasn't a movie to call back to at the time, but it still works. Its also simply a common thread. Also, I would absolutely ride to work on an eagle. Of course, the main limiting factor is that the Giant eagles have other shit to do, and while they would help you in a pinch, they are unlikely to act as a taxi service. That's part of why riding eagles even most of the way is probably not to realistic, especially since the closer they get, the more likely it is they will be spotted.

As for the argument of why didn't they just fly to Morodor with the ring...well, they went over this didn't they? Sauron had his giant lidless eye that forced everyone to hide if they didn't want to be watched. Flying to Mount Doom with the ring was the equivalent of tossing Sauron the One Ring. The only reason why 2 tiny, sneaky HOBBITS wern't seen while he was walking in semi-open GROUND was because an entire army was distracting Sauron. A GIANT EAGLE in the middle of the OPEN SKY would have been swarmed by ringwraiths before you could say, "Second Breakfast". But of course, once the ring was tossed into the crack of doom, Sauron didn't have the mojo to do anything except implode or whatever. So Giant Eagles were a reasonable extraction plan.

They still could have cut a lot of time out of the journey if they flew 3-4ths of the way.

This was is from the Wikipedia page somebody linked

---------------
The idea of the Eagles transporting the Ring to Mount Doom, or at least part of the way, is not discussed in The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien himself apparently never specifically addressed it, except in an oblique manner. In The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, he stated: "The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. [Gandalf] by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape." (Letter 210) In the DVD commentary for Peter Jackson's film adaptation of The Return of the King, Jackson and Fran Walsh joke that not using the Eagles to travel directly to Mount Doom was a plot hole, at which point Philippa Boyens angrily points out to them that the Flying Nazgûl would have intercepted them had they attempted this, and it simply became a common joke that it was a plot hole because the Flying Nazgûl were not introduced in the first film, a point to which Jackson and Walsh humbly conceded.

...

Different adaptations of Tolkien's books treated both the nature of the Eagles and their role in the plots with varying level of faithfulness to originals. The first scenario for an animated motion-picture of The Lord of the Rings proposed to Tolkien in 1957 was turned down because of several cardinal deviations, among which Humphrey Carpenter recorded that "virtually all walking was dispensed with in the story and the Company of the Ring were transported everywhere on the backs of eagles"

....

Needless to say, that would have been a very short movie.

(BTW I've yet to see a reason for why the Eagles didn't fly to the end destination in The Hobbit except for that Smaug might attack them.)

I think its back to how the eagles aren't mindless beasts of burden. They are intelligent things with there own agendas and desires. I'm sure they COULD fly the Dwarfs around, but, well, why? Sure they are friends with Gandalf, but they are probably friends with gandalf BECAUSE he only asks for their help when it is super-critical, and not every time Gandalfs buddies want to save some time on a suicide mission.

 

[Maxtro]

I think its back to how the eagles aren't mindless beasts of burden. They are intelligent things with there own agendas and desires. I'm sure they COULD fly the Dwarfs around, but, well, why? Sure they are friends with Gandalf, but they are probably friends with gandalf BECAUSE he only asks for their help when it is super-critical, and not every time Gandalfs buddies want to save some time on a suicide mission.

Hah! I wonder how often Gandalf goes on this suicide mission treks and ends up needing the eagles.

I would love there to be a scene where an an eagle rescue seems obvious and it doesn't happen, then there is a cut-away to the eagle roost, and they're all like "Nope." and then Gandalf falls.

 

[headbanger97]

If I am correct the reason Gandalf did not have the eagles fly them all the way to the Misty Mountain was simply because they did not actually know each other that well. They were really only on friendly terms at best. If I am correct the only reason the eagles dropped in in the first place was they noticed a large fire and a bunch of goblins and wargs running around.

(BTW I've yet to see a reason for why the Eagles didn't fly to the end destination in The Hobbit except for that Smaug might attack them.)

The eagles very clearly state in the book that they would not travel anywhere where men lived. The lord of the eagles says "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew... for they think we were after their sheep.... No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay the thanks to you,(Gandalf had at one time healed a arrow wound on the lord of the eagles.) but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plain."

Hope that answers some of it xD

 

[Little Woodsman]

Really?

Of course this is technically the first time it happened, but come on.

Why not just ride the eagles to the end spot? Or does Gandalf just like taking his time?

Never seen any of the movies, couldn't get in to LOTR itself but I *love* The Hobbit, and have
read the book more times than I remember.
In the book the Lord of the Eagles specifically refuses to take the company anywhere near where
men live because "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew". He specifically says that
sometimes he & his kin would steal sheep from the flocks of humans, and implied that the humans
had taken to shooting them on sight. He also implied that the Eagles had no love for dwarves, and
really only rescued them because they hated the goblins and thought it was funny to rob the goblins
of their sport.

 

[Little Woodsman]

Partly why I'm nervous about the film: apparently the justification has been changed more along the lines of 'trying to reclaim their homeland'.

Wait what!?!?
The whole reason that I love the Hobbit is because the dwarves *weren't* a bunch of noble hair-and-cloak-flapping-
dramatically-in-the-wind heroes, just a bunch of regular guys saying "Dammit, we want our *gold* back!".
My interest in seeing the movie has just dropped dramatically.

 

[headbanger97]

Partly why I'm nervous about the film: apparently the justification has been changed more along the lines of 'trying to reclaim their homeland'.

Wait what!?!?
The whole reason that I love the Hobbit is because the dwarves *weren't* a bunch of noble hair-and-cloak-flapping-
dramatically-in-the-wind heroes, just a bunch of regular guys saying "Dammit, we want our *gold* back!".
My interest in seeing the movie has just dropped dramatically.

I saw it. That's partly true, Thorin is fueled by a longing to return to a home lost, but another big reason is because they are afraid of someone beating them to adventuring into the mountain and taking their gold. So it is kind of changed, but the lust of gold is still there. Do not worry, the movie was great!

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Oh my god people! LET....IT....GO!

I like what you've done with your avatar, very subtle!

Erm, if this is a joke, it flew over my head. Care to clarify?

Oh, Your default avatar picture is facing a different direction to all other default avatar pictures in this thread, I thought you'd taken the standard image and reversed it as a really subtle distinction to make a unique avatar, but I looked at a few others and it turns out the avatars can be facing either direction. Sorry.

 

[Maxtro]

If I am correct the reason Gandalf did not have the eagles fly them all the way to the Misty Mountain was simply because they did not actually know each other that well. They were really only on friendly terms at best. If I am correct the only reason the eagles dropped in in the first place was they noticed a large fire and a bunch of goblins and wargs running around.

(BTW I've yet to see a reason for why the Eagles didn't fly to the end destination in The Hobbit except for that Smaug might attack them.)

The eagles very clearly state in the book that they would not travel anywhere where men lived. The lord of the eagles says "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew... for they think we were after their sheep.... No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay the thanks to you,(Gandalf had at one time healed a arrow wound on the lord of the eagles.) but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plain."

Hope that answers some of it xD

That's it!

That discussion never happened in the movie.

The eagles just showed up, did their rescuing, flew for a bit and then dropped them off. No explanation.

BTW, do Hobbits live anywhere close to human lands?

Oh my god people! LET....IT....GO!

I like what you've done with your avatar, very subtle!

Erm, if this is a joke, it flew over my head. Care to clarify?

Oh, Your default avatar picture is facing a different direction to all other default avatar pictures in this thread, I thought you'd taken the standard image and reversed it as a really subtle distinction to make a unique avatar, but I looked at a few others and it turns out the avatars can be facing either direction. Sorry.

Actually, its me who has the reversed avatar

 

[Saregon]

Not sure if anyone's posted this already, but if I remember correctly:

Spoiler

Apparently, spoiler tags aren't enough to alert to spoilers inside, so move along, nothing to see here.

BTW, do Hobbits live anywhere close to human lands?

Yes, Bree is not too far away from the Shire.

 

[Elvaril]

BTW, do Hobbits live anywhere close to human lands?

Yes, they do. The shire is about a days ride West of the village of Bree, but the Great Eagles would not be flying that far West anyway.

If I am correct the reason Gandalf did not have the eagles fly them all the way to the Misty Mountain was simply because they did not actually know each other that well. They were really only on friendly terms at best. If I am correct the only reason the eagles dropped in in the first place was they noticed a large fire and a bunch of goblins and wargs running around.

(BTW I've yet to see a reason for why the Eagles didn't fly to the end destination in The Hobbit except for that Smaug might attack them.)

The eagles very clearly state in the book that they would not travel anywhere where men lived. The lord of the eagles says "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew... for they think we were after their sheep.... No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay the thanks to you,(Gandalf had at one time healed a arrow wound on the lord of the eagles.) but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plain."

Hope that answers some of it xD

This right here. The Eagles saw the giant fire that the goblins had lit. The only reason that this whole argument of riding the Eagles has shown up is instead of the Eagles just showing up at the right time by circumstance and saving the them, in the films Gandalf has now summoned them at least twice by whispering to the stupid moth and because they have never spoken to explain their motives. It makes them look like Gandalf's toadies when they are anything but. During The Lord of the Rings the leader of the Eagles is known as Gwaihir the Windlord, who was a great and powerful being of his own accord, not one who would be akin to the idea of ferrying Hobbits and Dwarves about. He has little interest in the dwarves quest. He is just keeping an eye on the movements of the goblins and rescued the dwarves mainly to spite the goblins.
Also the eagles are the servants of Manwë Súlimo, the King of Arda, the greatest of the Valar who had sworn to no longer interfere in the affairs of Middle-earth. Having the eagles carry the ring bearer to Mount Doom almost certainly would have been a violation of this oath.

 

[Legion]

That's it!

That discussion never happened in the movie.

The eagles just showed up, did their rescuing, flew for a bit and then dropped them off. No explanation.

BTW, do Hobbits live anywhere close to human lands?

That's pretty much the case for the Harry Potter films as well. For some reason creators of movie adaptations don't seem to think explanations for things are needed. Gets in the way of the explosions I guess.

Hobbits do not live far from human lands, but not close enough that they'd bump into each other on a regular basis. They are also quite solitary creatures overall, and tend to keep within their communities (which is why Bilbo is seen to be odd for adventuring).