Earth's Whitey-est Heroes

TheAmazingHobo

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Honestly ?
If this is the best a quite smart, extremely well-versed in matters of comic books, chap like Bob can come up with, I fell a bit sad.
Because most of these ideas sound just horrible.

A guy that is both thematically and visually utterly redundant ?
The King of a tribe of super-advanced, but masquerading as primitve, Africans ?
The "Master of Kung-Fu" ?
A character for whose inclusion you can´t find a better argument for than "They could get off a couple of cheap shots at other studios" ?

I´m no comic book fan and I´m sure a couple of those characters are actually cool.
But they sound horrible and I don´t think Avengers would have been any better off by their inclusion.
 

jmarquiso

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You missed one other iconic female character, one that gets her powers from - you guessed it - an alien invasion.

Ms. Marvel aka Carol Danvers. Someone who probably would have felt redundant with Maria Hill, though one that could expand the universe into the outer space SWORD stuff that they're obviously foreshadowing for future installments. Already Hill felt redudant with Caulson, but it's good to have her around now. I actually love that character quite a bit, almost as much as Carol.

In fact, if Agent Brand (a Joss Whedon Character) would have appeared, SWORD may have been overly foreshadowed.

The other iconic female character you're missing is the Wasp, of the original lineup. Of course you'd have to had dealt with Ant-man as well - so here's hoping they'll show up in Edgar Wright's movie.
 

jmarquiso

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Hitchmeister said:
I feel that both Luke Cage and Black Panther need to be established in their own movies before being thrown into an Avengers mix. They need to be introduced to movie audiences in a format where they get extensive screen time to avoid looking like tokens. Although a Heroes for Hire movie could introduce Luke Cake, Iron-fist, and Misty Knight and for added diversity they could amalgamate Iron-Fist and Shang-Chi into an Asian Danny Rand and not get tangled up in the Fu Manchu aspects.

I think it was missed opportunity in The Avengers to not mention War Machine. They could have thrown in a line saying that Colonel Rhodes was not available for the Avengers because he's U.S. Air Force and SHIELD (like in the comics) does not answer to the U.S. military. That would have helped establish why it was just the Avengers and NYPD fighting an alien invasion and not the National Guard.
I think Heroes for Hire is a great movie to make, if not to have someone to bounce off of in an Avengers 2.
 

Misho-

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Lizardon said:
While I'm not sure if it's the reason he was left out of the Avengers, a War Machine movie was/is being considered to be made for after the Avengers. I'm not sure if that has had any development though.

Spider-Woman would be a hilarious addition, although it would really confuse the people who don't know why Spider-Man and Wolverine aren't Avenger.

Your description of Black Panther is very similar to how I've explained him to my friends. "Batman if instead of his parents being rich, they were the rulers of an advanced African civilisation". I'm fairly certain a Black Panther movie is being planned as well.

And I think a rather obvious woman Avenger you left out is the Wasp. As a founding member in the comics, it would be a shame if she didn't get to appear in the movies.
I think he left Wasp out because she's basically a white female and the whole thing is about diversity including racial not just gender. But yeah. I wish they would make a Dr. Strange Movie, a Giant-man and Wasp movie, a Ms Marvel Movie and a Black Panther movie, but out of those examples only Black Panther really offers some diversity.

Also the absence of War Machine will probably be explained in Iron Man 3.
 

Deacon Cole

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Urameshi13 said:
I have been thinking that when DC finally gets their act together, the GL for the Justice League movie should be John Stewart. Especially if Marvel can successfully pull off a solo Black Panther movie, then I think a movie about a former US Marine gaining the power of the Green Lantern should be an easy sell.
They'll probably do that anyway to distance the project from the Green Lantern movie.

I remember watching the 70's Spider Woman cartoon as a kid. I always kind of liked the character. Interesting that it's Spider Woman and not Spider Girl. Strange for the 70's, but maybe not that strange.
 

uneek

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I would like to see Black Panther in the Avengers. Not because of the racial diversity, but because he's a really good character.
 

RatRace123

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I hope Black Panther gets a movie, he's one of my favorite Marvel heroes. I mean, come on, how can you go wrong with a guy who's basically Batman, if Batman was king of a country?

And yeah, after my first viewing of the Avengers I wondered where Rhodey went. I mean, you got another man in an Iron Man suit, and there's an alien invasion going on, they didn't think that he might be kinda useful.
 

Something Amyss

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War Machine, being already established in the movie universe, is so FREAKING OBVIOUS.

And since Black Panther was in the cartoon, I was hoping he'd be in it.

Not for diversity's sake, but because I'm a fan of both.

Heroes for Hire or just Cage would have been cool, too. And I didn't even think of Spider-Woman. Though wasn't it the OTHER one who was an Avenger? Not Jessica Drew?
 

jecht35

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honestly I don't want see the same heroes over an over again so yeah a bit of diverity can go a long way with the avengers should it be the ones bob listed, maybe not but I wouldn't mind. Also I may be just thick headed or maybe insensitive by saying this, but does black panthers orgin really bother anyone? its just a character in a fictional world. Also Mrs Marvel may be X Men related enough that she can't be in an avengers movie.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Azuaron said:
Yeah, I saw the title and my first thought was, "Where the Hell was Rhodes?"

Seriously, what was he doing that was more important than stopping an alien invasion kicked off by a god?

Captcha: come back

Yes, Rhodes, come back, where have you gone?
Fiji. He was on the ONE vacation he gets a year, and no goddamn super monsters are going to interrupt his me time.
 

Something Amyss

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RatRace123 said:
I hope Black Panther gets a movie, he's one of my favorite Marvel heroes. I mean, come on, how can you go wrong with a guy who's basically Batman, if Batman was king of a country?
"Lousy Black Panther. Always rubbing his kingdom in my face. Batman could own a kingdom if he wanted to. Batman could own a continent if he wanted to. And not one of those crappy continents, either. Batman would have a brand new continent: Batmanica."
 

honestdiscussioner

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MovieBob said:
Colbie Smulders' Agent Hill gets a fairly visible role, though she never exits the S.H.I.E.L.D. Hellicarrier
Not that it is a big deal, but one small correction: Hill had a pretty nice scene outside of the Hellicarrier early on in the movie, chasing down Loki and Hawkeye in a jeep before getting buried in rubble.
 

hermes

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From the gender diversity perspective, I think Ms Marvel would make a better addition to the movie than Black Widow. Not only she is more interesting (powerwise), she also has a cool origins story, which can be tied to the overall screenplay of the movie. It would sure give us a better villain than the Chitauri... Besides, Black Widow was seriously underpowered compared to the rest of the team, even Hawkeye.

Both Luke Cage and Black Panther would be good additions, and I think the rights for a movie were in the talks for years now. However, from an ethnic perspective, they should include The Wasp. Not only an Ant Man movie is close to be next in line for Marvel, but Wasp is both woman and Asian, which covers two "niches" in one. They can always retell her origin so she is not a mutant. Alternatively, they can go for the Scott Lang version, instead of Hank Prim.
 

AlexVanko

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Is no one else going to question why diversity characters need to be shoehorned in in the first place? I don't get this sense that big movies like this are obligated to have a certain level of diversity. It's a piece of fiction, and Whedon can write whatever he wants to tell the best story he can. For the Avengers, even one more character in the film would have been beyond the breaking point, especially one that had not been established in films. It's just weird to me that this is a problem for people. The characters in the film are the ones written for the part, I don't sit there thinking, "Man, why isn't that guy black?" Same thing for women, I don't see the big deal. And it's obviously not discrimination that kept women out of the film--I mean, Joss Whedon LOVES to write him some female characters, and he's generally thought of as being really good at it. I just don't think this is a question that needs to be asked, and I absolutely don't think a fictional story should compromise its quality in any way just to add/substitute token diversity characters.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Well Bob, your #1 problem is of course that they are trying to sell the idea of super hero cotinuity movies still. They have succeeded at it all of once, despite all odds, and did it largely by using some of the longest running, best known characters out there, and a basic plotline taken directly from the comics.

Pretty much every one of the characters you mention is the result of what is at best a moderate success at intentionally creating minority characters for the sake of having minority characters. In the case of most of them, such as Luke Cage, they have been accused of being offensive racial stereotypes and problem characters, as much as they have been embraced by the community at large. It's the time old issue that if you create a black (or other minority) character and they just act like a normal super hero, they get called a "minority by technicality". The recurring jokes by members of the group in question being that they never knew the ethnicity of the character based on behavior. On the flip side if they have the character act like a member of that ethnicity it becomes offensive on some level, either as some kind of oftentimes misinformed backlash empowerment fantasy, or just a flat out racial stereotype.

To "pick on" Cage for example, look at the "Civil War" event from years ago, people make a big deal about Luke Cage being involved, but was it because people actualy liked the character, or because of a PC stunt with Marvel wanting to put one of the only black characters they had at the forefront. A lot of what Cage did has become the stuff of fan parody. For example, early on when Marvel started to lose it's way with this being a "gray" issue and deciding to make it clearly black and white, and a modern political analogy, they had a thing with Tony Stark trying to recruit Luke Cage, and Luke Cage going off on Iron Man in making it all some giant analogy to slavery, including properly shocked reactions from Iron Man. This for a while lead to a few parodies of that scene with captions about how the man (Luke) just doesn't get the issue, or is stupid and gets angry about slavery because that's what Black men quintessentially do when confronted by any social issue they don't happen to like. A point not so much made by white people, but largely fueled it seemed by blacks who felt that this was both stupid, stereotypical, and out of context to that actual universe.... and really, this isn't the first time Cage has come to the forefront for garbage like this. As I've mentioned before Seanbaby once made a crack about how he had trouble reading "Power Man" because he was never sure if Luke wanted to beat someone up or dance with them due to all the jive he used (this was vintage). While exagerrated for humor, he has a point, and it's a funny way of pointing out the issue of him being a racial stereotype.

This isn't really about Power Man though, it's about practicality and how many of those characters are going to put butts in seats at this early stage. Sure, if this kind of crossover thing is still going on in 10 years or so, and becomes a staple, we can start seeing a lot of lesser characters and experimentation, but right now they are wise to work with the wll known characters and establishing the core. Pointing out that they are all white is just rabble rousing, and if they decided to start listening to that and changing things around due to politics, this whole experiment could die a crib death.

I'm also going to say rather cynically that the reason why The Avengers has had such a diverse roster is not because it's some kind of great politically correct thing that worked, and was intended to be diverse as some kind of message, but because it's Marvel's dumping ground. Typically The Avengers has one, or maybe two big heroes that carry their own weight popularity wise to act as a core, and otherwise is used as a place to stick characters who have some popularity, or a reason to exist, but can't hold a title on their own. Characters typically go to The Avengers in hopes that they will recover, or "hit" with some interest, and either do, or wind up gradually disappearing, to perhaps be revived later as a surprise, or make occasional apperances in other books. A lot of those female, and minority super heroes, kind of wound up being in "The Avengers" not because they made "the big leagues" but because they kind of sucked and this was their last chance to get some interest. For a lot of characters Avengers membership is basically a stop along the path to the graveyard. There ARE exceptions to this of course (like there are to anything, especially in comics), but saying "this guy was an Avenger", or pointing out that a character has bounced in and out of the Avengers does not typically mean good things. It typically means that for whatever reason Marvel is keeping a character on life support and doesn't want it to die for whatever reason, or present an avenue (called from Avengers reserves) to eventually revive a character they feel they need to retire, but think might hit later given the right events to use it.

The Avengers is not the JLA, where you pretty much get all the big, iconic characters togerther with great frequency, and also have the also rans. While people compare them,
their purpose and how they are used is a bit differant. Typically when The Avengers gets all of the major iconic characters together, they don't stay together all that long as they all have their own successful comic series to hold down, and in many cases sell better in their solo titltes (with regular crossovers) doing their own things in their own sphere. DC also has the JLA characters holding their own titles, but by trying to handle that is also infamous for making massive messes out of their continuity, and tons of contridictions because of it. Marvel is hardly "clean" here but it does tend to do things better and keep track of where characters are supposed to be at any time. DC has tried to deal with their interests by doing things in the past like creating dozens of alternate universes and versions of the characters who exist seperatly so they can write stories without worrying about all the other stories, needless to say that kind of thing got confusing fast. As a result DC frequently feels the need to reboot their entire continuity a lot more than Marvel does, not only do the Reboots sell a lot of comics (how will it happen this time?) but let's the deal with a writing style where things cease to make sense where one comic might contridict another entirely on how something works, and even occasionally where the same character might basically be written in differant places at the same time accross titles, and well... yeah, listing all of DCs antics and why they have needed to reboot would get crazy, it's not typically just one reason. The differance in styles accounts for a lot. Despite the hype, The Avengers doesn't tend to operate as an all star showcase that often... yet for the movies at this point it's kind of what they need to do, because they don't currently have the install base where people are going to pay to see a constant roster of minor and also ran heroes, B listers, former A listers, and new experimental creations.


You have to be a pretty serious comics nerd to know who Iron Fist, or Spider Woman actually are never mind what they can do or anything about them to see them in a movie. The amusement involved in the whole Spider Man/Woman confusion example is something that would really only appeal to the most extreme kinds of nerds (like me). If you actually know who Misty Knight and would like to see her in a movie, your by definition the kind of nerd, most other nerds are scared of. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her, or by association Iron Fist (there isn't, they are fine characters) but my god, that is so out of context to what your going to try and do in a movie right now it's kind of funny. It's like me saying I want a "Darkhawk" movie, or them to put "Blink" into something, or explore the concept of "X-man" in the X-men (or hey have the X-men fight Adversary, or do the Inferno storyline). Those are all things I'd like to see, without any political elements involved, but now isn't the time if it was ever going to happen even if I could make some kind of "outside" justification for any of it (diversity, etc..) because we're just not ready for that kind of fringe stuff in Hollywood, they have just now managed to finally after many attempts, managed to get super heroes to hit, and haves successfully made the first comics continuity movie. Keep the current characters/formula going for a while and establish itself before you start tossing wierd stuff in.

That said, I agree "War Machine" being used might not be bad, though there is an issue of redundancy with Iron Man (having to do twice as many armor FX and fight scenes, and show the same basic stuff, while still giving all the other characters their time) but that could be resolved. Pepper Potts is Tony Stark's girl friday... I see no real issue with the way they are handling that character.
 

Therumancer

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hermes200 said:
From the gender diversity perspective, I think Ms Marvel would make a better addition to the movie than Black Widow. Not only she is more interesting (powerwise), she also has a cool origins story, which can be tied to the overall screenplay of the movie. It would sure give us a better villain than the Chitauri... Besides, Black Widow was seriously underpowered compared to the rest of the team, even Hawkeye.

Both Luke Cage and Black Panther would be good additions, and I think the rights for a movie were in the talks for years now. However, from an ethnic perspective, they should include The Wasp. Not only an Ant Man movie is close to be next in line for Marvel, but Wasp is both woman and Asian, which covers two "niches" in one. They can always retell her origin so she is not a mutant. Alternatively, they can go for the Scott Lang version, instead of Hank Prim.
Well, I blame Marvel's diversity attempts so far as they go at the moment for this. Marvel wanted a black character for the continuity so they decided to use the "Ultimate" version of Nick Fury, and mostly based SHIELD around that. In this version The Black Widow kind of acts as his aide, and has been popualrized in that role through the Avengers animated movies and so on.

In the actual comics, where Nick Fury is white, and SHIELD is a bit more over the top, The Black Widow is more or less a chaotic prescence. To put it bluntly she was a villain, brought up largely to act as an opposite number to Captain America, her husband "The Red Guardian" was pretty much literally the Russian "Cold War" era version of Cap. It can get pretty borked but Natasha is basically a matter of lifelong conditioning, training, and eugenics which gives her a degree of parity with the super soldier serum. Going way back to the whole "Majripoor" thing they even had a bit where Wolverine had flashbacks to meeting Cap during World War II when he visited the region, and they ran into Natasha as a little girl. The implication as it was is that she's not only just a Russian super agent, but also literally a "Romanov" as in descended at least genetically from the missing princess and technical heir to the what would be the Russian royalty if the revolution never happened. The "real" Black Widow does not rely on modern weapons, but herself uses a grappling hook to swing around like Batman, and a trademark weapon called "The Widows Bite" which is a set of energy projection bracelets. She's also had a trick belt back in the day that included some pretty powerful explosives.

The actual Black Widow character acts more or less independantly, and switches from being a hero to a villain. She's betrayed Russia to join the US, then turned out to be a double agent, then a triple agent, then a quadruple agent, and whatever else the writers demand. She's been effectively the leader of the Avengers, but also one of their enemies. She's fought Captain America to standstills in a death duel, and if I remember also had a romance with him for a while. The most distinctive thing about her is that you never know whose side she's on at any given time, though after everything she typically winds up at least redeeming herself to be a good guy. The whole schtick from the "Marvel Ultimate Alliance" video game, and Avengers Cartoon series (which is hybrid) pretty much summarizes the way the character us typically written.

Yeah, her going up against Chitauri and stuff in the movie was pushing it, because the "Ultimate" version and setting her up with Nick Fury that directly was a mistake. That version of the character was actually given too much credit and probably should have been a skidmark, I doubt she should have even been able to handle one of them. The actual version though would have her doing most of what Cap could do (basically if he can go hand to hand with it, she can), except instead of having a shield she's got energy projection (which seems to vary in how powerful the weapon's upward potential is, depending on the needs of the writers).

Likewise, while the "Ultimate" version of Nick Fury is cool, and Sam Jackson nails the role, It kind of sucks the way it's being done. The "real" main universe Nick Fury is another character who has parity with Captain America, being a WW II vet himself. He's been called by some "Captain America without the Angst" and would probably being a bit more hands on in a situation like this. Samual L. Jackson's "Ultimate" inspired version didn't even seem to have his needle gun.

Truthfully, in response to Bob, if they ever decided to have Nick Fury here act a little more like the comic version does at times, they would have their Black super hero right there without needing to even introduce anything new to The Avengers. Of course I think they already blew that because if he comes out and does more there will be the queston of "Gee, why didn't you do that the last time it would have been helpful in that other movie".
 

Calibanbutcher

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Nov 29, 2009
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As far as diversity is concerned, I really want some new heroes in the next Avengers movie:
1. Token Black, a new upstart guy who is exactly like let's say, everyone else, except for being ASIAN.
2. Math guy: He becomes the aide/accountant of Nick Fury, battling the ever increasing bills and expenses. Also he must be an African American.
3. Titty McBouncypants, the nitpicky male political correctnes officer of SHIELD who enforces diversity in every part of the organization. (Iron Man is now Iron Man/Woman) etc, annoying everyone just for the sake of feeling smug. In the end, the Hulk throws him of the flying aircraft-carrier.
4. Nitpicky Buzzkillington: Does almost everything Black Widow does, but with a more feminist edge. Must be female of course.


And of course the new villain:
5. Joe O'Average-viewer: Annoyed by people forcing diversity on great movies that clearly don't need it, he takes it upon himself to fight political correctness in works of fiction, because seriously srew that s*it, it's not as if the movie was rascist, but some holier-than-thou critics, named "Bob", for example, must take it upon themselves to make sure that everyone feels bad for liking a movie that was not as diverse as it could have been, had they just shoehorned in even more characters, most of them heroes that really aren't even all that popular.
 

the clockmaker

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I know that bob said that he wasn't trying to critisize the film along the edges, but that just raises the question of why he titled it as he did, or why he chose to use the entirety of his weekly soapbox talking about it. Either he is simply trying to court controversy to increase his (based on the number of comments per video) flagging viewer base, or this really is an issue for him.

Do you know why war machine was in the movie? Becasue the whole thing is a showcase of differant heroes interacting, adding another iron man would be redundant and, taking all racial causes aside, Stark is simply the more interesting character, he is more charismatic, has an actual character arc to get through, is the brilliant scientist and has the connections to the other characters.

He also seemed to pay off the fact that black widow was in the movie and that she kicked arse, except where it suited him. I'm also worried by the idea that two vastly differant characters (hill and black widow) should have been interacting soley because of their gender. THey are vastly differant characters, and not even in the iron man-cap way of it being an interesting contrast. They are simply two characters with nothing in common except they are women who work for shield.

The question also comes up as to what any of these characters would add besides the colour of thier skin. The reason that this film was so successful was because it managed to bring out the amazing characters and powers that superheroes are supposed to be without getting bogged down in the stupid parts. So throwing in characters like the head of a secret African superpower that for some reason doesn't seem to want to help the rest of Africa or someone who has spider related powers and a spider related name but is not related to spider man for reasons that are going to remain unsaid.

Bob seems confused that because hollywood is adapting the comic books that they are taking them warts and all. they are not, they may be throwing in small referances to the more bizzare elements, but that does not mean that they are going to start bogging down their movie in some of the more explotative, bizzare or flat out stupid parts of them.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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hermes200 said:
From the gender diversity perspective, I think Ms Marvel would make a better addition to the movie than Black Widow. Not only she is more interesting (powerwise), she also has a cool origins story, which can be tied to the overall screenplay of the movie. It would sure give us a better villain than the Chitauri... Besides, Black Widow was seriously underpowered compared to the rest of the team, even Hawkeye.

Both Luke Cage and Black Panther would be good additions, and I think the rights for a movie were in the talks for years now. However, from an ethnic perspective, they should include The Wasp. Not only an Ant Man movie is close to be next in line for Marvel, but Wasp is both woman and Asian, which covers two "niches" in one. They can always retell her origin so she is not a mutant. Alternatively, they can go for the Scott Lang version, instead of Hank Prim.
Your the second person to mention "Black Panther" that I've noticed (probably more) other than Bob, but honestly I don't think that's going to happen. Lat that I knew BET (Black Entertainment Television) still had the rights to the character. They did a truely horrendous, racially/politically loaded version of the character as a TV series, with him being opposed by some really horrible interpetations of some classic marvel characters (don't get me started on "The Black Knight"). It's on Netflix, but last time I mentioned it someone told me that despite the technicality that lets him appear in the current "Avengers" cartoon they won't be able to do a movie, unless it's a TV movie, and BET produces it. That COULD be wrong, but that's what I've been told, which is actually kind of annoying as I thought after that trainwreck of a show it was over for BET (especially seeing as he appeared in The Avengers Cartoon, but as I said that's some kind of contracted technicality that supposedly makes that an exception).


We'll see what happens though. As I've said before, if they do this, I think Black Panther should be introduced through a Fantastic Four movie similarly to the comics before getting his own movie. He wasn't a character that succeeded by just being throw out there, he was worked in over a period of time, with his lore carefulyl constructed a piece at a time. To do it right in the comics it would be done seriously.

Also for the record, "If the guy from Coming To America was Batman" isn't quite accurate. The actual introduction for Black Panther was pretty much him inviting The Fantastic Four to Wakanda so Reed could examine the Vibranium deposits. He then set traps for each member of The Fantastic Four one at a time, to defeat them in a pseudo "most dangerous game" type thing, before getting beaten by their then pilot Wyatt Wingfoot. At which point The Black Panther revealed he was actually practicing to prove to seeif he could beat guys with actual super powers, in order to defend his country should Wakanda open itself up more to the outside world. He wound up then working with a number of heroes as Vibranium became more intristic to the universe and how certain things were functioning. He does travel, but
mostly he's regional and defends that specific area against threats, which are frequent, because pretty much everyone wishes they had more Vibranium. :)

I'd describe The Black Panther as "What if Tarzan was actually the tribal leader of one of the advanced lost cities he discovered", but I suppose it's mostly a matter of Semantics. Black Panther isn't enough of a vigilante to really fit the Batman mould, and tends to be a bit more reactive than someone who goes out specifically looking to fight evil. One of the things that can strain his relations with other heroes is that it can sometimes be tricky to get him involved in anything that doesn't have a direct impact on Wakanda unless it's a matter of personal debt. He's not generally the kind of guy that is going to say show up to fight a bunch of The Kingpin's guys by chance.