Editor's Note: Good Griefing

incoherent

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Anyone remember Playing to Win? Of course you do; you've probably read it more than once, maybe read a couple of the follow-up articles. One of Sirlin's big points in that article is that by imposing arbitrary rules on a game, you create for yourself a different game which bears little resemblance to the "real game" played by the "real players". Only when you adapt to this can you consider yourself a "winner" in the game.

In any game with other human players, the "real game" includes responding to any actions that the other human players can take within the boundaries of the game. Some of these actions are, from your perspective, undesirable. A player who intentionally acts in a way that you feel is undesirable is called a griefer. This isn't just true for video games: remember Charlie Brown trying to kick the football, only to have the griefer Lucy pull it out of the way of his foot and cause him to sprawl to the ground.

In an online game, there are wide varieties of actions that opposing players can take that are undesirable to you. If you are a bad player, then just playing a skilled opponent is undesirable, since you can't really win. If you're fishing in WoW, then having someone run around near you is an undesirable action. If you're just standing around town, then having someone kite a raid boss into the town square is an undesirable action. If you're playing a match with certain objectives, someone doing something as simple as "not trying to fulfill the objectives" is undesirable, especially if that person is taking up a slot on your team. So there are a wide variety of ways to grief people.

The reason I bring up Playing to Win is that when you play WoW, you're playing the whole game, whether you like it or not. The whole game of WoW includes getting into unfair world PvP fights. It includes people standing on your bobber while you're fishing. It includes the occasional person who manages to spark a flamewar in one of the chat channels. From the griefer's perspective, the game really is about social engineering as much as it is collecting shiny new bits on a server somewhere, and when you snap and go on an expletive-laced tirade against them, that's winning the game as much as killing the raid boss is winning the game for you.

Why do they do it? Quite simply, because they know you hate it. All you want to do is kill the dragon, or become a highly rated PvPer. That's no more the "real game" of WoW than NR20 games are the "real game" of Starcraft, or "no items, Final Destination" is the "real game" of Super Smash Bros., or any of the other arbitrary rules that Sirlin's article talks about. The griefer's game is about manipulating people, and the easiest people to manipulate are the ones that are too focused on their own corner of the game to see you coming.

Now, as online games have these things called "patches", Blizzard maintains some ability to monitor their game and modify it if they agree that the griefers' actions are undesirable. But used too liberally, unintended consequences result. The standard WoW example of this is the sad state of capital city raids, which were effectively killed off by the addition of dishonorable kills, and which never recovered even after DKs were removed ~18 months later. Yes, DKs solved the problem of low-level players showing up at the Crossroads and finding all the questgivers dead and 20 Alliance players dancing on their corpses, but they also removed an element from the game entirely which might have been fun in its own right.

Oh, and a token shameless plug [http://wowgoons.com/].
 

Delicious

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For me, griefing is just another term for "breaking the game". If I can do something that no one, not even the game developers, can predict, such as team-killing, you bet your ass I will do it.

Think of it liking owning a vase that, when smashed, can be instantly reformed with a few keystrokes. Would you break it?

Hell yes you would. We all enjoy breaking things. The only reason we repress this reckless tendency is because of the consequences such as: pissing off the owner, having to pay for it, or at the least cleaning up your mess. If the consequences become non-existent or insignificant, such as in a videogame, then let's just say you will see of broken vases.
 

dukethepcdr

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Nope, griefing is simply bad. People need to stop being jerks and stop doing it. If you are so bored by playing games that you have to resort to bullying and pranks to get your rocks off, stop gaming and start a new hobby. Like clay sculpting or something.
 

Johnmw

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Pandalisk said:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Wow this guy is an old style bully trapped in a nerds body... You basicly enjoy being a dick. On the why the hell not front: BECAUSE YOUR RUINING IT FOR OTHERS. Are you mentally disabled? Can you not see that even if you enjoy something it might not be the right thing to do?. Go play a sandbox game to indulge in that - the sandbox environments caters to all your gamebreaking needs and doesnt impose on others.
 

Pandalisk

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Johnmw said:
Pandalisk said:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Wow this guy is an old style bully trapped in a nerds body... You basicly enjoy being a dick. On the why the hell not front: BECAUSE YOUR RUINING IT FOR OTHERS. Are you mentally disabled? Can you not see that even if you enjoy something it might not be the right thing to do?. Go play a sandbox game to indulge in that - the sandbox environments caters to all your game breaking needs and doesnt impose on others.
A nerds body? hardly anyway, Nonsense idiot, i didn't say i do it all the time, i do it sometimes when I'm bored, when i want to spice it up a bit, NOTHING IN RULES SAY I CANT DO IT and NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU FROM LEAVING THE SERVERS, I dont even over do it, once is my maximum and i do it rarely, have you never done anything wrong in a game? if you have then YOU good sir are mentally disabled because i can guarantee every single person in this forum has done something like this or anything else in this category in some shape or form, IT DOES NOT RUIN YOUR GAME FOREVER, a mere 10 seconds of your time

Can you not see that telling me what is the right thing to do in a video game IS UTTERLY FLAWED?

And i love sandbox games but some things they cannot provide, unless their are mods, you make it out like I've made it my mission to strike out at you Gamers, hardly.

You make it out like your view on it is the FUCKING ULTIMATUM! that's pretty arrogant of you, it depends on the people who are playing, their personalities, in the end it is a game, you do not need to take any aspect of it serious although it is fun to in most occasions
 

Anton P. Nym

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Pandalisk said:
Can you not see that telling me what is the right thing to do in a video game IS UTTERLY FLAWED?
If that's your position, and not just a fig-leaf to cower behind, then I'd like to point out that you are a hypocrite. If others can't dictate to you how to play, then why do you have the power to force them to play your way?

At least the other guys can point to the rules (or maybe even the Terms of Use and Notices) to explain why they're playing in that style. But griefers can't do that, and their certainly not doing it with the concent of the other players; if they were, it wouldn't be griefing and people wouldn't be complaining.

If you want to do something oddball and weird, go start your own server and gather your own friends together on it. If you can't do that, then you could ask others if they want to play your style, or at the very least stop when they ask you to.

Because otherwise you're not a cure for anything, you're a symptom of a narcisistic society that frankly has no right to be telling others how to live and play.

-- Steve
 

Pandalisk

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Anton P. Nym said:
Pandalisk said:
Can you not see that telling me what is the right thing to do in a video game IS UTTERLY FLAWED?
If that's your position, and not just a fig-leaf to cower behind, then I'd like to point out that you are a hypocrite. If others can't dictate to you how to play, then why do you have the power to force them to play your way?

At least the other guys can point to the rules (or maybe even the Terms of Use and Notices) to explain why they're playing in that style. But griefers can't do that, and their certainly not doing it with the concent of the other players; if they were, it wouldn't be griefing and people wouldn't be complaining.

If you want to do something oddball and weird, go start your own server and gather your own friends together on it. If you can't do that, then you could ask others if they want to play your style, or at the very least stop when they ask you to.

Because otherwise you're not a cure for anything, you're a symptom of a narcisistic society that frankly has no right to be telling others how to live and play.

-- Steve
That is what i do, this thread is about why they do these things, and i think i've pointed it out cleary those reasons in earlier posts.
 

incoherent

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Anton P. Nym said:
At least the other guys can point to the rules (or maybe even the Terms of Use and Notices) to explain why they're playing in that style. But griefers can't do that, and their certainly not doing it with the concent of the other players; if they were, it wouldn't be griefing and people wouldn't be complaining.
That's sort of the problem: not all griefing is against the rules. It's not against the rules for me to go have a dance party in the middle of the battleground instead of fighting the opposing faction, but you may feel that I am griefing you by depriving you of a player who is actually doing something productive.

Even if there are generic rules against making other players miserable, there's no guarantee of enforcement, and if the enforcement is just a WoW GM telling you to knock it off, that's just going to cause the griefers to find a new tactic. Which, honestly, is half the fun.
 

xiata

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May 6, 2009
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I blame griefing on the people who play. There are certain strategies that must be employed with online >team based< games. Running and gunning solo is not one of them. A lot of the times, you are trying to do something, e.g. baiting a mech into a trap in Battlefield 2142, and right before you succeed one of your dumbass teammates gives away your position. GGGGGG-GGGGGG-GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Dust. You're now a corpse. That teammate somehow flees the scene unscathed. God damn teammates.

Certain game mechanics demand certain behaviors and people are too damned stupid outside of clans/guilds/etc to implement them properly. This is why I grief. If no one wants to play a team game as a team I am damned set on either disrupting the strategies of either the enemy team or my team by any means necessary. Depends on how bad my team is really. If my team is team retard (you know, teammates running the opposite direction of the objective, unable to identify friend from foe, constantly jumping in front of your shot and bitching about you shooting them), I'll probably grief my team, although generally focusing on the "problems". This is nothing but punishment for their stupidity. Note though: I generally do not target the "noobs" who are new to the game. It's kind of obvious running into them, such as driving a tank off a sudden cliff that everyone else knows about. They are hilarious in their own right. And also really easy to avoid if you are planning something strategic.

However, if the enemy team is just stacked horribly against our own, I'll grief them in hopes to balance things out a bit while they focus their wrath on me alone. Team based games cannot be won by a solo player if the enemies are well organized. I'll admit it, I am not a god at these games, hell I'm usually just your average player. But if it's a bloody team game, I'll, oh I don't know, try to play as a team.

If at the start of the round all the douchebags, you know who you are, switch to the same team just to upset the balance, oh ho ho, the griefing is on big time. Clannies are big time offenders of this. Team games should have *SOME* balance to it. One sided games are not fun for the losing team. You are griefing by your own skill gained by your sheer lack of social skills cave dwellers. Do everyone a favor: if your team is consistently winning, and you are one of the best players on the server, join the other team and give them hope. Not only do you get challenge WHICH I HOPE YOU WANTED but you can teach the lesser skilled the ropes to total pwnage... or whatever you folk call it these days. If you just decided to play so that you can all get 20-1 k/d ratio and rub it in the lesser players' faces, well, piss off griefers.

If things are going well in a game, or is balanced, if I am not playing like everyone else, I generally dick around to almost no harm to any player, such as getting on top of buildings you aren't supposed to and firing single shots of my pistol at unsuspecting enemies clustering below. It's hilarious watching them try to find who is shooting at them! Even better when they teamkill each other due to some lingering internal team conflict. Sure I'm not helping my team all that much, but the game is balanced at this point of time. Most people *should* be having some sort of fun at this time.

whew. End of rant!
 

FlakAttack

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Dec 9, 2007
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I play Garry's Mod. That should be credential enough for anyone who has spent a decent amount of time online in GMOD. EVERYONE in Gmod is a griefer AND a victim at one point, and I really do wish I was joking. It highlights the best and worst of all characters due to the complete freedom offered.

My friend and I have had a few experiences from both sides, but by far, the most prominent experiences were when I was hosting my own server. My god, as a server admin, I had no idea how much griefing there was. But I've dealt with a lot of bullies in my time, and I've learned the best way to defeat them is to grief them. You say it can't be done, but then, you've never played Gmod. Designing automatic turrets that track and kill a specific person? It can be done. Setting them on fire so everytime they spawn they slowly burn to their death? It can be done. Turning them into a ragdoll you can manipulate, attach to things, or launch from a catapult? It can be done. Griefing griefers has been one of the best experiences in my life:
These smug assholes join my server with the intent of ruining other people's fun, and I completely debilitate them and have everyone laugh at them. Nothing pisses a griefer off more than realizing he just made everyone's day brighter.
 

Zayren

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It can be fun to grief if it's some sort of creative thing that will get people to laugh. I can't think of any of the top of my head right now, but that's pretty much the only time I've purposefully griefed.


Minus the times I've already been pissed off at something, and someone just makes it worse. Like when I failed Dead Air on Expert a few times, I was already angry when I joined a game of Versus. When I joined the game, I was immediately prompted with a "Vote to Kick: Zayren" that filled up in two seconds and I was out. That just made me rage, rejoin the game from my recent players list, and just unload into my teammates. Four times.

Oh, which reminds me of another time, I joined a random game of Versus, play through the entire finale with some guys, whom I thought were nice, and was immediately booted when we got back to the lobby. (To quote the booter,"Let's give this guy a seven." What does that even mean?) I rejoined the game four times before they set it to a closed game. The next day they were playing, still on my recent players list, in an open game with an empty slot, I joined then, not to be a dick, but because I thought they'd laugh. They did. And I got booted. Again.
 

Firia

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I'm a girl, and use my mic when I play online games. I get grief from guys trying to get a rise out of me. "Zomg! Is that a girl?" "Nah, sounds more like a 14 year old boy." "Hey kid, when are your balls going to drop?"

>_<

My experiance with griefers online is not what you would call fond. I've seen people that thrive on dishing it out, and I have to agree-- Kind of a dick move.
 

Firia

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Johnmw said:
Pandalisk said:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Wow this guy is an old style bully trapped in a nerds body... You basicly enjoy being a dick. On the why the hell not front: BECAUSE YOUR RUINING IT FOR OTHERS. Are you mentally disabled? Can you not see that even if you enjoy something it might not be the right thing to do?. Go play a sandbox game to indulge in that - the sandbox environments caters to all your gamebreaking needs and doesnt impose on others.
A day will come when he learns that fun at the expense of others will one day bite him in the ass. Even if he doesn't activly realize. :)
 

Kstreitenfeld

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Mar 27, 2009
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While it is sometimes funny to case others grief (or in my case, watch videos of said griefing) I would have to agree that it is a dick move.

Team romba from TF2 come to mind. I found it hilarious when they ported their own team-mates into the enemies sentries... Only to have them say "Oh I'm not taking that teleport again" *takes other teleport which brings them to the same fate* "*insert rage here*". Now if that had happened to me I would likely of raged on them myself.

On the OTHER hand, griefing can quite often just be out-right dumb and not even amusing in the least and just happens because they wanted to do it.
 

Rakombo

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Sep 30, 2012
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I discovered videos of griefers and trolls on youtube around a month or two ago and found alot of them EXTREMLY entertaining but no matter who does it they always at some point come out as dicks or even bullies.I did it ocassionally with a friend on wow and cod4 and never knew until recently it acttually had a name.I remember one time we got on a cod4 server and voted the smallest map and played 1v1 whenevr someone else entered we would kick him out when he returened we would say we're sorry and that we thought he was a hacker that was just on here only to kick him a couple of seconds after that.It was hillarious, we laughed our asses of the whole time but it was a dickish thing to do.The thing is that I can see griefing and trolling being justified if you're doing it to someone that deserves it but majority of the times the people that are doing it just have fun by ruining someone elses good time.A lot of griefers think that making someone rage quit is a win but in reality what the hell is the person supposed to do? stay there and take the shit without a way to retaliate?So I guess the majority of griefers are dicks wheter they justify it or not.