Education & Failure

[Bertylicious]

Several months ago a fellow on Radio 4 told a story about birds having a race and everybody receiving prizes. This refers to the Dodo Bird Verdict, the origin of which comes from Alice in Wonderland:

A bunch of characters get wet and one of them, a dodo bird, suggests having a race around a lake to get dry. All the characters run off in different directions round the lake and dry off. They then ask the Dodo who was the winner. As there was no structure and nobody really paying attention to what was going on, the Dodo furrows its brow for a moment and then declares "everyone has won and all must have prizes".

The analogy is, according to Wikipedia, most used to refer to a problem within psychiatry as it appears that different forms of approach yield similar results, however the fellow on the radio was using it to talk about education and that is what I want to ask you.

The argument is that if all education yields equal merit, if nobody can be deemed to have failed their education, then education as a standard of measure becomes worthless. On the flip side, however, if you deem it possible for people to fail their education then you are kind of throwing those people away. I was pretty rubbish at school, I have a terrible memory and wrecked attention from massive depression, so never went on to higher education but often wonder what might have been if we didn't have a grading system and I'd just gone on to university for the sake of learning and going to university.

Now a lot of you folks are youngsters in university and most of the rest of you are university educated types working in professional fields, so I am curious as to your take on failure in education. Any thoughts?

 

[Fappy]

I think grades and proper education are incredibly important up to the end of High School-age. From there, and a lot of college professors would probably agree, I'd like to see a system for higher education somewhat-void of grading. Obviously you need to be able to provide proof that you are actually educated in your field, so I'd imagine a certain amount of work/certain quality of work would be necessary to progress through your education and there would have to be some series of all-encompassing tests that make sure you are actually learning something.

In theory the system would make it so that people are coming to class to learn and not to get good grades.

If that argument's weak I have one that most people around here wouldn't likely argue. Public education needs more (and more evenly dispersed) funding in the US.

 

[Hyperone]

That's a question I could respond to with a thesis. I'll parse it down as far as I can, it's a cultural failure. It is ABSOLUTELY possible for someone to FAIL their education. Not simply by not completing it, but not doing anything productive with it.

The sad reality I face here, is that I am in line to become a high-school educator in an era where some decent percentage of the population actively does not want to learn. I wish I had a viable solution, I really do.

 

[SciMal]

It needs to happen.

People NEED to learn how to deal with failure, how to accept that they're wrong, and how to go back and try again (or in the case of professional degrees, maybe they're just not cut out for the subject).

Unfortunately the school systems (at least in the United States) aren't usually set up to allow for failure as an educational experience, and instead either ignore failure or punish failure by holding the kid back. Colleges are better; failing a class simply means you take it again, but you still pay for the credit hours if it's the same class. There's also the societal expectation that college degrees are gained in 3-4 years with hard work, but that timespan doesn't allow for re-taking courses or switching Majors.

A system should be in place for those who consistently fail or those who do not want to continue to higher education. Sure, they may not go on to be Lawyers or Nurses, but tradeschools are an excellent option as well (and can pay as much as degree-requiring positions).

Personally, I hope everyone hits that wall of a class that brings them to their knees. People turn out to be so much less douchey and self-centered when the reality that they're not the intellectual god they thought they were.

 

[Fappy]

It needs to happen.

People NEED to learn how to deal with failure, how to accept that they're wrong, and how to go back and try again (or in the case of professional degrees, maybe they're just not cut out for the subject).

Unfortunately the school systems (at least in the United States) aren't usually set up to allow for failure as an educational experience, and instead either ignore failure or punish failure by holding the kid back. Colleges are better; failing a class simply means you take it again, but you still pay for the credit hours if it's the same class. There's also the societal expectation that college degrees are gained in 3-4 years with hard work, but that timespan doesn't allow for re-taking courses or switching Majors.

A system should be in place for those who consistently fail or those who do not want to continue to higher education. Sure, they may not go on to be Lawyers or Nurses, but tradeschools are an excellent option as well (and can pay as much as degree-requiring positions).

Personally, I hope everyone hits that wall of a class that brings them to their knees. People turn out to be so much less douchey and self-centered when the reality that they're not the intellectual god they thought they were.

The 3-4 years thing is slowly changing. There are very few degrees that can be completed in 4 years nowadays. I was lucky mine was still doable in 4.

 

[Esotera]

The only useful metric of success in education is the work that someone can produce in a real-life setting, which is something that our current university & lower education systems absolutely suck at.

Anyway, we should get rid of traditional education and get everyone to self-study with a decent support net available. That would be far more effective past a certain stage (definitely post-GCSEs, possibly before).

 

[Bertylicious]

Interesting responses so far, which is always encouraging. Thank you all.

I'm getting a vibe that a lot of you seem to be in favour of prizes for all so I'd ask; what about the advantage of identifying, and I apologise for the nauseating corporate-speak, 'talent' that comes from grading mechanisms? What about the value of your own credentials?

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that I was the Berty that might have been and had gone to university to study whatever it is you went to study. At university I spent all my time taking drugs and having parties, doing the bare minimum. Let us say that you, who studied at least reasonably hard and barely bullshitted their way through at all, and I got the same grade; 'pass'. Does that seem right to you?

 

[DugMachine]

Load of crap to me. Busted my ass in school. If you have actual learning disabilities sure but being lazy or rather wanting to be gaming/on the interwebz is not an excuse for crap grades. "Oh but I actually pay attention in class!" Then apply what skills you learn. Retaining knowledge means fuck all if you can't use the information.

 

[Dags90]

The U.S. is more forgiving. I dropped out of high school and still got my degree. High school was a rough time for me, and my biggest problem was not completing assignments on time. My test scores were fine, but I didn't have the drive or the parental oversight to get homework done. So I dropped out and started out at a university the spring semester that should've been my senior year.

I got over that depression a few months after I dropped out and did much better in college/university.

The 3-4 years thing is slowly changing. There are very few degrees that can be completed in 4 years nowadays. I was lucky mine was still doable in 4.

Mine took four and a semester, but I started a semester early (see above), so I still graduated on time. When I was a junior or senior they cut back on some of the non-major electives when they realized how few people were graduating in four years, after I had already taken them of course. I was routinely one of the youngest people in my classes even though I was on track. You pretty much had to take summer courses or 18 credit semesters to have graduated on time, and summer/winter courses weren't eligible for financial aid.

Funding of K-12 education through local property taxes is bull crap, plain and simple.

OT: I think a mix is worth it. In particular, play to student's strengths, not their weaknesses. If someone sucks at doing homework, but is clearly grasping the material through test results, great. Don't hold them back for laziness. History isn't about laziness, it's about history. Laziness is work for a guidance counselor. Ditto for poor test scores. Maybe they have an untreated attention disorder.

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

I ended up finishing with three summer courses after I "graduated". If I hadn't dropped one class two different times and taken larger loads I could have finished in 8 normal semesters. I'm a Journalism major though. If you can't finish a Journalism degree in 4 years you couldn't finish anything in that time-frame

I know very few people who have graduated within 4 years that didn't have some kind of advantage right out of the gate (AP-credit, dual-enrollment, etc.). I only had 3 credit hours from AP Psych right out of High School because it was easy and I come from a wealthy county. Very few school districts actually offer these kinds of opportunities.

 

[Dags90]

I know very few people who have graduated within 4 years that didn't have some kind of advantage right out of the gate (AP-credit, dual-enrollment, etc.). I only had 3 credit hours from AP Psych right out of High School because it was easy and I come from a wealthy county. Very few school districts actually offer these kinds of opportunities.

The four year graduation rate at my school has been above 20% only once in the last 10 years...Yay public schools? I think my cousin started with 9 credits or something from AP classes.

My mom had encouraged me to take CLEP tests while I was in academic limbo for 7 months. I can't say I regret not doing it, but I probably could've saved some time/money on things like Italian and Western Civ.

 

[Fappy]

I know very few people who have graduated within 4 years that didn't have some kind of advantage right out of the gate (AP-credit, dual-enrollment, etc.). I only had 3 credit hours from AP Psych right out of High School because it was easy and I come from a wealthy county. Very few school districts actually offer these kinds of opportunities.

The four year graduation rate at my school has been above 20% only once in the last 10 years...Yay public schools? I think my cousin started with 9 credits or something from AP classes.

My mom had encouraged me to take CLEP tests while I was in academic limbo for 7 months. I can't say I regret not doing it, but I probably could've saved some time/money on things like Italian and Western Civ.

Is that college or high school graduation rate? College I would understand... but high school. God damn.

My best friend dropped out and got his GED. The government gave him $500 and now he makes $24/hour as a Rad Tech. The system makes no sense >.>

EDIT: GED should not look more appealing than a diploma in practice!

 

[ohnoitsabear]

The 3-4 years thing is slowly changing. There are very few degrees that can be completed in 4 years nowadays. I was lucky mine was still doable in 4.

Hell, a big part of this isn't even large amounts of required courses (although that is a huge issue, although it varies depending on the university), but the fact that changing majors is so common (I think the average here is four times per student or something). I think a lot more people would graduate in four years if it weren't for changing majors, or going into university undecided.

I think that the reason for this is that primary and secondary education do a terrible job of helping people figure out what they want to do with their life, and what they need to do to be able to do it. It would probably be a lot better if the primary focus of high school was exposing people to a large amount of career options, and then helping them decide if it's right for them. Right now, high school (in America, at least) is more about making sure everybody passes the state tests so funding doesn't get pulled.

Also, having more equal educational opportunities for everybody would help immensely.

As far as the OP's question goes, I think that the current education system works alright if you work well in a traditional classroom setting (assuming you are in a school that actually has a decent amount of funding). If you don't, then the educational system really doesn't do anything to help you at all.

 

[Dags90]

Is that college or high school graduation rate? College I would understand... but high school. God damn.

My best friend dropped out and got his GED. The government gave him $500 and now he makes $24/hour as a Rad Tech. The system makes no sense >.>

EDIT: GED should not look more appealing than a diploma in practice!

College, it's still kinda stupid. Also, where did he get this free $500? I got my GED and I didn't get any $500.

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

I agree completely. The education system in the US needs a lot of work done to it. It also doesn't help that society tells people they need to go to a traditional college to be successful. College used to be a privilege, it was expensive and most people there knew what they wanted. Now it's just this expensive, "necessary" thing that people do, usually ending in wasted money and a wasted education. The amount of people in the workforce that actually utilize the education they went to college for is far smaller than it aught to be.

 

[Fappy]

Is that college or high school graduation rate? College I would understand... but high school. God damn.

My best friend dropped out and got his GED. The government gave him $500 and now he makes $24/hour as a Rad Tech. The system makes no sense >.>

EDIT: GED should not look more appealing than a diploma in practice!

College, it's still kinda stupid. Also, where did he get this free $500? I got my GED and I didn't get any $500.

Might be a state thing. I don't really know. I should ask him...

 

[ohnoitsabear]

-Snip-

I agree completely. The education system in the US needs a lot of work done to it. It also doesn't help that society tells people they need to go to a traditional college to be successful. College used to be a privilege, it was expensive and most people there knew what they wanted. Now it's just this expensive, "necessary" thing that people do, usually ending in wasted money and a wasted education. The amount of people in the workforce that actually utilize the education they went to college for is far smaller than it aught to be.

Pretty much. It doesn't help that there are a very large amount of careers where a college education is not the best course of action.

That said, if you're going into medicine, law, or scientific research (among other things), a college degree is pretty much mandatory. However, there are a lot of people that are going to college that would be much, much better off doing something else and not getting into a shitton of debt.

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

I agree completely. The education system in the US needs a lot of work done to it. It also doesn't help that society tells people they need to go to a traditional college to be successful. College used to be a privilege, it was expensive and most people there knew what they wanted. Now it's just this expensive, "necessary" thing that people do, usually ending in wasted money and a wasted education. The amount of people in the workforce that actually utilize the education they went to college for is far smaller than it aught to be.

Pretty much. It doesn't help that there are a very large amount of careers where a college education is not the best course of action.

That said, if you're going into medicine, law, or scientific research (among other things), a college degree is pretty much mandatory. However, there are a lot of people that are going to college that would be much, much better off doing something else and not getting into a shitton of debt.

My adviser (and the head of the Journalism department) told me that you don't even need a high school diploma to be a good journalist. I can't imagine why anyone would pursue a masters in Journalism unless they planned on teaching it. The only thing my degree really serves as is a talking point for employers. That's it.

I may have learned a few things and grown as a person as a result of the whole college experience, but something tells me that's not what people throw down thousands of dollars a year for.

 

[McMullen]

The way grading and progression is handled in the US is a problem, but no truly satisfactory solution can be put in place without fixing a lot of other things as well.

If tweaking the grading and progression systems is all we can do though, I'd say that those who fail shouldn't advance, because they haven't learned the material they're there to learn. Still, failure in one area shouldn't prevent advancement in others. Maybe it could be set up to be more like college, where you have more choice in what you learn, but there are certain basic requirements for a broad range of skills. If you fail in one of these basic areas you keep retaking it until you pass, but are free to advance in the subjects you are proficient in.

 

[ohnoitsabear]

My adviser (and the head of the Journalism department) told me that you don't even need a high school diploma to be a good journalist. I can't imagine why anyone would pursue a masters in Journalism unless they planned on teaching it. The only thing my degree really serves as is a talking point for employers. That's it.

I may have learned a few things and grown as a person as a result of the whole college experience, but something tells me that's not what people throw down thousands of dollars a year for.

This is the case for a lot more things than people realize. Unfortunately for me, the field that I plan on going into (scientific research) requires not only an undergraduate degree, but also Master's of (preferably) a Ph.D. Thankfully, I have enough scholarships that I'm not paying very much for college, so I should be able to get my time and money out of it (or at least I really, really hope so).