Elder Scrolls Vampirism

[Paragon Fury]

So I'm about to make my first vampire character for Skyrim to have a character for each side when Danwguard comes out on PC, but I've always had this underlying issue with the way vampirism works in the Elder Scrolls games.

That is, the way it works for feeding/power seems to be reversed - you get more powerful the less you feed, when logically (and vampire lore-wise) you should get weaker the less you feed.

Since blood is essentially a vampire's primary food/power source, depriving a vampire of this should make them weaker, not more powerful - a human won't get stronger if you deprive them of food, succubi won't get stronger if you put them in isolation; so why does depriving a vampire of blood make them stronger?

And it seems to kind of skew vampire lore/traditions. I thought a big challenge and conflict for vampires was controlling their desire to feed and gain more power so that they weren't discovered and didn't cause suspicion; self-control vs. the primal need to feed and get more powerful. In the Elder Scrolls, not feeding basically turns you into a walking death-dealer, Sure, everyone gets mad at you, but you can kill most of them just by thinking about it at that point - or make them kill each other just by thinking about, in this case.

Maybe I'm being too picky, but its' just always not sat right with me.

 

[The Scythian]

I've thought of it as a desire to become more human. You drink the blood so you can feel it, almost like being alive again. The less you drink, the less "human" you become. The power comes from undeath, and the blood undermines that.

 

[evilneko]

Elder Scrolls lore != Traditional Vampire lore.

Also maybe you haven't noticed, but there really isn't one universal vampire lore anyway. There are as many as there are authors who wrote about them. And it's not even true that feeding always makes a vampire more powerful. Some lores have it as plain old age.

In Elder Scrolls, vampirism is treated as a disease. It's fairly simple to make an analogy to explain it: the disease gradually transforms you into something else. Drinking blood reverses the transformation, but doesn't kill the disease, ie, it treats the symptoms. Conveniently enough, hunger for blood also happens to be one of the symptoms of the disease. It is reasonable then, that a strong vampire can control their blood cravings and thus benefit from the increased strength and such.

See? There you go. 'course if you still don't like it, you can always reverse it with a mod. There are several.

 

[Erana]

Personally, I think its kind of an ingenious way of making the vampire power level relevant in-game. Well... At least, as effective as any mechanic can be in a series as easy to break as TES.
Need to interact with society? Drink and lose your powers. Want to do things in the day? Drink and lose your powers. It makes vampirism go from something that you just pick up and stuff on your stat sheet, to a bonus with active repercussions.

Not to mention, if you're all interested in lore or what-have-you, why isn't this a cool idea? It both facilitates the idea of powerful, ancient vampire-wizard-coven-wafflehaus things, and the idea that living among humanity in secret has a lot of risks and constant pressures and much more human-like existence.

Still, I never really liked vampirism or werewolf stuff in TES games, anyway. Too much a hastle to me, and that's my biggest problem with it.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

The vampirism and werewolf stuff in Skyrim by default is more hassle than it's worth. Not enough reward or reason to put up with the hassles. Still, I agree with the OP about feeding being the wrong way round. it's not a matter of making sense or not making it, it's a matter of gameplay and reason.

Feeding should should fill the vampire with vitae that strengthens them, vitalises them, makes them stronger and faster with the full might of their vampiric heritage. Being hungry should make them more desperate, sluggish, more prone to damage...this serves as motivation to sneak through the night and find victims to feed on. Activate more powers is fine, but they should be aimed at motivating the player to play as a hungry vampire.

Thankfully there are great mods such as this one [http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/17077] that makes massive, interesting and balanced changes to the way vampirism fundamentally works.

 

[Some_weirdGuy]

Maybe you get stronger cause you're growing more desperate? drinking blood makes you happy, not drinking blood makes you want it all the more, so you become stronger.


Well, that's one path of logic they might have been following.

 

[Gabanuka]

sip

I never saw the downside to Werewolves in Skyrim. Just just get super powerful every once in awhile and cant sleep well.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Vampires in the Elder Scrolls get more powerful the more hungry they get because they're getting further and further away from their mortal heritage.

When a vampire drinks blood, they get close to how they once were, this has an effect on their appearance so that they can mingle in mortal society.

The same way that in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, if you go hungry, you will frenzy, which is really powerful but you have no control, more akin to a hungry beast than an intelligent predator.

 

[Fappy]

sip

I never saw the downside to Werewolves in Skyrim. Just just get super powerful every once in awhile and cant sleep well.

Same here. Werewolves are now especially useful with the Dawnguard add-on. Werewolf perk tree = OP

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I never saw the downside to Werewolves in Skyrim. Just just get super powerful every once in awhile and cant sleep well.

The beast form had too many restrictions for the trade off the player had to make and it didn't scale well at all.

The only positive were immunity to disease.
The restrictions: Only usable once per day. Had to reequip everything on returning to human form. Everyone fears/attacks you on sight. Time limit. Cannot end transformation early. Cannot loot or use doors or potions. Cannot use shouts. Didn't scale well at high levels. Cannot use any magic/item to restore health.

I don't know what Dawnguard brings to the table so some or all of the above may be different with the expansion. Butto summarise vanilla werewolf, it simply cannot compete with simply being Dovakhiin with shouts, magic, stealth, armour, weapons, etc. The annoyances of having to go back through the dungeon to pick up loot I couldn't pick up previously was annoying and the restrictions on transformation limits were unnecessary.

There are many mods that help here but none that I'm to keen on sadly. I only used it for the disease immunity.

 

[Kroxile]

sip

I never saw the downside to Werewolves in Skyrim. Just just get super powerful every once in awhile and cant sleep well.

Not to mention disease immunity. There is literally almost 0 drawback for being a werewolf in Skyrim.

Vampirism meant something in previous Elder Scrolls games where becoming a vampire could boost your stats beyond the cap of 100, but vampirism in Skyrim is so pointless

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Vampires in the Elder Scrolls get more powerful the more hungry they get because they're getting further and further away from their mortal heritage.

When a vampire drinks blood, they get close to how they once were, this has an effect on their appearance so that they can mingle in mortal society.

The same way that in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, if you go hungry, you will frenzy, which is really powerful but you have no control, more akin to a hungry beast than an intelligent predator.

I was looking through to see if somebody had already likened it to that, as I've been playing through it recently. It had to be you didn't it...

 

[Fappy]

-Snip-

Dawnguard buffed them significantly. A fully perked Werewolf is damn-near unstoppable (except maybe high level dragons) and I play exclusively on Expert. Some things you can get from the perks:

- Up to 100% bonus damage
- More HP/Stamina
- Feed on anything with a beating heart
- Get double HP from feeding
- Shout that summons two ethereal Werewolves (way too OP)

I wrecked the final boss of Dawnguard in werewolf form, it was hilarious. The fact that you can feed on damn-near anything means you can stay in werewolf form nearly indefinitely. Ring of Hircine can be used for infinite transformations. I advise not using it for undead dungeons since you can't feed on them.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Vampires in the Elder Scrolls get more powerful the more hungry they get because they're getting further and further away from their mortal heritage.

When a vampire drinks blood, they get close to how they once were, this has an effect on their appearance so that they can mingle in mortal society.

The same way that in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, if you go hungry, you will frenzy, which is really powerful but you have no control, more akin to a hungry beast than an intelligent predator.

I was looking through to see if somebody had already likened it to that, as I've been playing through it recently. It had to be you didn't it...

'Sup bro, got a problem?

 

[Shinsei-J]

I like the Oblivion way of vamps, they didn't make it to far from alot of vampire lore but it was fresh in a way that breaks from most Tolkenesque fantasy tropes while also making an interesting game mechanic.

It's all about the lust and the frenzy, becoming an almost animal instinct.

 

[BlackStar42]

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines

Probably the best presentation of vampirism IMO was in Vampire: Bloodlines. .

Goddamn it, now I have to reinstall it!

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines

Probably the best presentation of vampirism IMO was in Vampire: Bloodlines. .

Goddamn it, now I have to reinstall it!

Yup, them's the rules

 

[Jynthor]

In The Elder Scrolls Vampires are hideous monsters with the exception of the playable Order clan. Because of a deal with Clavicus Vile they are able to look like humans and live with them, provided they have fed.

So when you don't feed you become a monster again, and thus stronger. Basically the inner beast comes out.

 

[DoPo]

Elder Scrolls lore != Traditional Vampire lore.

Also maybe you haven't noticed, but there really isn't one universal vampire lore anyway. There are as many as there are authors who wrote about them. And it's not even true that feeding always makes a vampire more powerful. Some lores have it as plain old age.

This right here.

I'm annoyed with people who keep bringing up "traditionally this and that" and then apply it to TES. It is an entirely different universe that works on different rules. There are too many people who don't understand stuff like glass - for example you'll find many mods that "fix" glass armours by giving them proper weight and making them more brittle, making them clear, etc. And these people totally ignore the fact that glass is mined in Nirn. Also, some of them have no problem with ebony being as it is.

And as evilneko said, there are no "traditional" vampires - the closest you can get to "universal vampirism" is "feeds from the living" which itself isn't a must and gets incredibly sketchy at times.

Other than that, there are plenty of mods to change the vampirism - from reversal to overhauls. Take your pick.

 

[Fappy]

Elder Scrolls lore != Traditional Vampire lore.

Also maybe you haven't noticed, but there really isn't one universal vampire lore anyway. There are as many as there are authors who wrote about them. And it's not even true that feeding always makes a vampire more powerful. Some lores have it as plain old age.

This right here.

I'm annoyed with people who keep bringing up "traditionally this and that" and then apply it to TES. It is an entirely different universe that works on different rules. There are too many people who don't understand stuff like glass - for example you'll find many mods that "fix" glass armours by giving them proper weight and making them more brittle, making them clear, etc. And these people totally ignore the fact that glass is mined in Nirn. Also, some of them have no problem with ebony being as it is.

And as evilneko said, there are no "traditional" vampires - the closest you can get to "universal vampirism" is "feeds from the living" which itself isn't a must and gets incredibly sketchy at times.

Other than that, there are plenty of mods to change the vampirism - from reversal to overhauls. Take your pick.

The glass thing pisses me off the most. I have explained it to people more times than I would have liked.