Emulators

[ALuckyChance]

I don't see why using emulators stops you from being a legitimate gamer.

emulators are illegal.
thus you are not a legitimate gamer.

Er, no they're not. Most emulators (at least for the Playstation 1/2 ones) need a BIOS to run them, and illegally getting one of those is a problem. Emulators are more on a 'legal grey area' than anything else.

Even then, what is a 'legitimate gamer?' That sounds a lot like the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy I've heard before. To me, a 'legitimate gamer' would be someone who, you know, plays games.

 

[JPH330]

I dont have a problem with them, but I prefer the console versions. The "piece of shit" retro controllers are quite the opposite. My NES controller has lived through hell but many many PS2 controllers broke easily. The games themselves also last a lot longer than CD based games. If you have any problems, a Q-tip and some Windex will fix them.

When I said piece of shit controllers, I didn't mean to imply they weren't durable, I just meant that they aren't comfortable to hold. It wasn't until later consoles that they started to make the controllers shaped well for you to grip.

 

[Miumaru]

I dont think emulators make you less of a gamer, but they definatly make you less of a collector. I know I always want the real thing.

 

[demoman_chaos]

When I said piece of shit controllers, I didn't mean to imply they weren't durable, I just meant that they aren't comfortable to hold. It wasn't until later consoles that they started to make the controllers shaped well for you to grip.

I never had any comfort issues with the NES, SNES, or Genesis. I've had a few issues with other consoles (Wii especially), however.
It may be that I grew up on the older consoles and you likely didn't, meaning I know how to best handle them and I am somewhat biased towards older games (if 2D is so bad, why are so many games these days going back to it?)

 

[SyphonX]

I use emulators for PS2 games, as well as other systems. It works especially well for.. say, a Final Fantasy, so I can run the game's native resolution x3, so it looks crisp, smooth and colorful.

They're very useful.

 

[Amnestic]

I'm not touching this with a 10-foot pole.

Leave my penis out of this.

 

[Amnestic]

I don't see why using emulators stops you from being a legitimate gamer.

emulators are illegal.
thus you are not a legitimate gamer.

emulators are not illegal.

roms are.

Aren't ROMs only illegal if you don't have the actual game attached to them? I have a legitimate copy of Grandia for the PS1 upstairs, but lack a PS1 memory card which means I can't really play it (JRPG over two discs. Yeah, try that without saving). Wouldn't it be legal for me to download a ROM since I am essentially just obtaining a copy of the data I already own?

 

[Jewrean]

Emulation is sometimes the ONLY way to get some old school games working (such as very old DOS based games). For this reason alone I say if anything it makes you an even MORE devoted gamer.

 

[Amnestic]

if you have a legitimate copy of Grandia for the PS1, dump a PS1 bios from hardware you own yourself and play it on a PC emulator then ye that's legal.

tho the bios is a sticky legally untested point that can be debated.

=_= Seriously? I have to actually dump it myself for it to be legal? God dammit is that ever stupid. If it's legally untested I'd wager it'll get overturned if it ever does go to court because, frankly, that's frickin' retarded.

 

[reg42]

Screw authenticity. I wanna play games using a 360 pad, on a decent sized monitor, with the graphics sharpened and some anti-aliasing.

I also want to quick save. Old games with infrequent save points or (gasp!) no save points become a lot less frustrating and a lot more fun when you can just play through happily without fretting over your potential impending doom setting you back half an hour.

Holy crap. you've been here a long time. Just thought I'd tell you that, in case you forgot.

OT: Emulators are fine in my books. It's just more convenient for me to (as an example) download an .iso of FF7 (which I've bought twice I'll have you know) and play it on my PC than to play it on my PS3.

 

[viranimus]

As for the argument of real gaming.. your facing off against nostalgia which is a badge of honor. Kinda like some punk kid telling his grandpa who lived through Pearl Harbor, that 9/11 was the greatest American tragedy ever. Its honestly not going to end well cause neither are "right"

As for being a lesser exp? Arguably yes. Things like save states make the games more in line with modern difficulties. Also frameskipping and turbo allow you to do things much faster. Also most EMUs have built in emulators that emulate things like the game genies and such, and the old school game codes for cheating still in essence work. So quite frankly it is cheating, but its nothing more than exploiting advantages that if were present back in the day, would be just as exploited. All they really do is help to alleviate things like time sinks and focus on what we enjoy about the games, not the aggravation of them.

I could go on, but, meh, I wont. I think its admirable that someone of the younger generations wants to explore where the industry came from. I think it teaches valuable appreciation for gaming, which is good.

 

[Danzaivar]

if you have a legitimate copy of Grandia for the PS1, dump a PS1 bios from hardware you own yourself and play it on a PC emulator then ye that's legal.

tho the bios is a sticky legally untested point that can be debated.

=_= Seriously? I have to actually dump it myself for it to be legal? God dammit is that ever stupid. If it's legally untested I'd wager it'll get overturned if it ever does go to court because, frankly, that's frickin' retarded.

There's a PSX emulator out there that doesn't need the original BIOS (Since they reverse engineered it).

 

[JPH330]

When I said piece of shit controllers, I didn't mean to imply they weren't durable, I just meant that they aren't comfortable to hold. It wasn't until later consoles that they started to make the controllers shaped well for you to grip.

I never had any comfort issues with the NES, SNES, or Genesis. I've had a few issues with other consoles (Wii especially), however.
It may be that I grew up on the older consoles and you likely didn't, meaning I know how to best handle them and I am somewhat biased towards older games (if 2D is so bad, why are so many games these days going back to it?)

I did grow up on the SNES, well, both the SNES and the PC. I don't have too much trouble using controllers for retro consoles, but I still think newer controllers are far better in terms of comfort. And I'm not sure why, but I've always sort of preferred PC controls.

And I agree with you on the 2D. I think 2D platforming is awesome, that's why I always go for Smash Bros. Brawl when my friends and I are trying to decide what to play. And if I didn't like old games, why would I care about emulators?

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I prefer to play gameboy games on an emulator. Bigger screen size and the ability to speed it up to make it play around 5-10x as fast is wonderfull.

Emulating actual consoles however, I don't like. I really miss the analog stick and controllers have a lot more buttons then a gameboy which is a pain to remember when playing on a normal keyboard.

You do know that you can connect controllers to your PC?

OT: I love Emulators and Roms. Especially the Roms. Roms allow me to play my games without using the disc. This is allows me to play my games without further damagin my games making them even more useless. For example in FFIX there is a cutscene that bridges Disc 3 and 4 but on my game the cut scene almost always freezes due to continued use. Now this does not happen with Emulators. Also Save States allow me to stop and start playing games whenever I want. This allows me to bypass the sometimes ridiculous length between continue points and Save points in FF games and other games. Although for things like Probotector(Contra) I would more use them for continue points at the start of a level.

 

[demoman_chaos]

I did grow up on the SNES, well, both the SNES and the PC. I don't have too much trouble using controllers for retro consoles, but I still think newer controllers are far better in terms of comfort. And I'm not sure why, but I've always sort of preferred PC controls.

And I agree with you on the 2D. I think 2D platforming is awesome, that's why I always go for Smash Bros. Brawl when my friends and I are trying to decide what to play. And if I didn't like old games, why would I care about emulators?

I have had a few issues with my PS3 controller, mostly when you have to hold the triggers for extended periods of time (like a racing game, or on Castle Crashers when my character looked exactly like the enemy so I had to hold the magic button so that aura thing wouldshow which one I am). Those "real trigger" things GameStop has help, but aren't great for tmes other than holding it.

According to Serris in an above post, you are illegal while I (who own a Genesis, NES, and SNES) am. Emulation is good so old games don't disappear when the last cartridge is lost and so more people can experience the treasures of old. They should adjust the law on Emulation.

 

[JPH330]

I don't see why using emulators stops you from being a legitimate gamer.

emulators are illegal.
thus you are not a legitimate gamer.

emulators are not illegal.

roms are.

Under United States law, obtaining a dumped copy of the original machine's BIOS is legal under the ruling Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., 964 F.2d 965 (9th Cir. 1992) as fair use as long as the user obtained a legally purchased copy of the machine.

emulators ARE illegal if you don't have the original machine.
if you read the OP, then you'll see he uses emulators because he can't get an original.

The Emulation of any game system unto itself is perfectly legal, and any reverse engineering of a system's BIOS to make emulation possible is also legal. The case of Sony vs. Connexant concluded the following:

"Connectix's reverse engineering of the Sony BIOS extracted from a Sony PlayStation console purchased by Connectix engineers is protected as a fair use."

There are some gray areas regarding this however. Some emulators require a copy of the system's BIOS to operate, and distributing BIOS files is in fact illegal unless they have been released into public domain(which can happen if a company's copyright becomes nullified due to various reasons not discussed here.)

ROMs unto themselves are also perfectly legal to own, copy, and distribute. These rules do NOT apply to copyrighted material however, and it just so happens that most ROMs are still under copyright. So unless a ROM is either homemade or public domain, then the probability of it being illegal to own and distribute is substantial.

The conjecture that it is legal to download a ROM if you own the file (or that you must delete within 24 hours of downloading if you do NOT own it), is false and is more or less a courtesy to video game manufacturers. It is illegal to download copyrighted material in any form whether or not you own a legally distributed copy. '

Keep in mind however that it IS legal to copy software provided you legally own an officially distributed copy, as also concluded in the Sony vs. Conexant case that stated:

"Any purchaser of a copyrighted software program must copy the program into the memory of a computer in order to make any use at all of the program. For that reason, 17 U.S.C. Section 117(a)(1) provides that it shall not be an infringement for one who owns a software copy to make another copy"

Though whether or not creating a ROM image specifically is legal has been openly debated. Primarily because of the ruling in Amiga Vs. JS&A Where the use of the PROM Blaster to copy the magnetic catridges was NOT protected by a user's right to copy software.

Whatever the case, distributing copied games is illegal regardless of whether or not you legally made the backup.

The rules above apply regardless of any ROM copyright holder's rules and policies. Though no court ruling has tested the concept that purchasing a game might bind the consumer into a legal contract giving the manufacturer the power to enforce such policies.

Copyright infringement is generally handled as a civil matter rather than as a criminal offense. As such it is the responsibility of the copyright holder and any law-firm representing them to enforce the copyright. Therefore, owning, distributing, and copying copyrighted ROMs is generally considered a "safe" practice. This minor infraction is on the same level as downloading illegal MP3s and is largely unenforceable. The probability of an individual being sued for the possession of illegal ROMs is incredibly low. However, if a website offers downloads for illegal ROM files, then they will most likely be shut down. The owner('s) of said website might also be vulnerable to various civil suits and could sustain substantial financial damage because of it. It's also important to note that extreme cases of copyright infringement may be escalated to a federal offense which could result in up to ten years imprisonment(see the No Electronic Theft Act, 18 U.S.C. 2319).

i spent 7 years as major contributor on certain websites aiding with contributions to the MAME and FBA source and was up to my neck in verification of the last of the SNK arcade roms as they were dumped.

i know the subject, i know where the legal grey areas are, and i'm telling you plain and simple emulators themselves are not in any way illegal.

roms are (including bios roms)

however not every system requires a bios rom.
nor does every emulator require illegal roms
ie. orginal media can be used through various means.

the OP talks of NES and SNES emulation. do either of these consoles require a bios rom to be emulated ? NO
so does he require a bios dump from a machine he owns under the fair use rulings (which btw i have already mentioned a page back) ? NO

.

MAME (and its sister emulator MESS) stand out in full view for all to see as legally unchallenged emulators of truly gargantuan proportions encompassing most if not all of the hardware systems that have been created since the dawn of video gaming as a testament to the innacuracy of your claim.

I also feel I should point out that I do technically own an SNES, but it's completely broken.

 

[Outright Villainy]

I use an emulator. I'm afraid my N64 would burst into flames if I tried turning it on. That and the expansion pack is nowhere to be seen. Oh, and the analogues on the old controllers have worn into nothing. And the video output has become hilariously fuzzy.

 

[Plurralbles]

maybe if the console wasn't 400 dollars on ebay I'd join them in their playing on a console... but no. That'll never happen because the supply is always shrinking and hte demand is always growing.

 

[Plurralbles]

if you have a legitimate copy of Grandia for the PS1, dump a PS1 bios from hardware you own yourself and play it on a PC emulator then ye that's legal.

tho the bios is a sticky legally untested point that can be debated.

=_= Seriously? I have to actually dump it myself for it to be legal? God dammit is that ever stupid. If it's legally untested I'd wager it'll get overturned if it ever does go to court because, frankly, that's frickin' retarded.

There's a PSX emulator out there that doesn't need the original BIOS (Since they reverse engineered it).

which is illegal as hell... lol. Reverse engineering is one of the things they specifically write one cannot do. Classy. Ohwell, if they still manufactured new consoles for cheap they wouldn't have this problem.

 

[Moontouched-Moogle]

Aren't ROMs only illegal if you don't have the actual game attached to them? I have a legitimate copy of Grandia for the PS1 upstairs, but lack a PS1 memory card which means I can't really play it (JRPG over two discs. Yeah, try that without saving). Wouldn't it be legal for me to download a ROM since I am essentially just obtaining a copy of the data I already own?

Well, since you have the discs, you could just side-step the whole ROM issue by popping the CDs into your computer and playing them on the emulator. (Well, assuming your emulator can load actual PS1 discs. And assuming you're not worried the computer will fry them. >_>)

Back to the original topic, I have nothing against emulation. Heck, without it, where would we get our fan-translations of Seiken Densetsu 3, Shin Megami Tensei, or Final Fantasy III (the Japanese one, not FF VI in disguise)? Plus, it's a lot easier and more practical than buying a used NES online for a ridiculously high price, and praying that it still actually works. Not to mention the option to use any controller you want, so long as you have an adapter. I personally enjoy playing games with my DQ Slime controller for PS2. Good ol' Slimey.

I'll admit it's a lot more satisfying, or at least more nostalgic, to play the games on an actual console, but not everyone is lucky enough or wealthy enough to have one. And those that do may find that their console is busted, or that their save files are suddenly gone.

...Although I'm probably still going to cave and shell out $20 for Final Fantasy Adventure on eBay...