England Jails Homophobes

[Grey Day for Elcia]

I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Nooooo. I am simply saying that hate speech (which this was) is not protected and you can be prosecuted for it.
That is what the law is.
It's not my moral law, its the law law.

Inciting hatred against a group (such as gays) is against the law. If a bunch of guys were doing this (and if you read it clearly they certainly were), they shouldn't act suprised when they go to jail.

Inciting hatred against a sexual orientation is only illegal in the UK and only has been for about a month. Inciting VIOLENCE is illegal in more places.

At the end of the day, these guys didn't actually incite violence and they weren't convicted if that; they were convicted of spreading hate. I think that's pretty fucked up. I have no doubt in my mind at all that someone leaving leaflets about how horrible rapists are wouldn't be punished, because it's 'okay' to hate them. I have no doubt at all that spreading hatred against neo-nazis and the KKK would be unpunished. It's 'okay' to hate them, it seems. The idiots here are being jailed because they spoke out against a group that it's 'not okay' to hate on. Outlawing hate is just not on. There are plenty of groups to hate and that's plenty okay. I think hating homosexuals is absolutely one of the dumbest things you could do, but my opinion isn't fact and I'm sure a KKK member would think hating them is idiotic.

It's a double standard in my eyes and a miscaridge of justice.

 

[Phasmal]

Sniiiiiiiiip.

Well, like I said before, rapists have commited a crime.
Homosexuals have not commited a crime.

Either way is a sort of fucked up vigilantism (which I think is also not legal).
I'm not saying you can't feel conflicted, but I don't.
It is quite clear they were calling for specific violence (and also, I cant find where it says they were calling for it legally, they just said they reckon their guy is cool with it) against a group who have done nothing wrong.

These guys knew exactly what they were doing, and I don't feel sorry for them at all. You can if you want but its probably a waste of time.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Ya this case does not really have all that much to do with free speech. If you read any of the articles on it they were clearly inciting hatred and using intimidation tactics on people. They were not just campaigning for a law to be made.

People were intimidated by them. They didn't intimidate people.

It's the same difference between making it illegal to walk your dog because someone people are terrified of dogs, and someone throwing a dog on someone who is scared of them.

You don't have the right to not be offended and you don't have the right to make laws to keep things that scare you away from you in public.

This law is very new and only exists in the UK. I don't see it lasting long.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Sniiiiiiiiip.

Well, like I said before, rapists have commited a crime.
Homosexuals have not commited a crime.

Either way is a sort of fucked up vigilantism (which I think is also not legal).
I'm not saying you can't feel conflicted, but I don't.
It is quite clear they were calling for specific violence (and also, I cant find where it says they were calling for it legally, they just said they reckon their guy is cool with it) against a group who have done nothing wrong.

These guys knew exactly what they were doing, and I don't feel sorry for them at all. You can if you want but its probably a waste of time.

I guess we will leave it there. In my eyes, they did nothing wrong. In yours and that judges, they did.

Such is the way of us human beings. Curse our differences

 

[Phasmal]

I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Free Speech does not protect you from consequences. Time people start to learn that. There are laws against "hate speech" or "incitement to crime" in about every country which values human rights.

So much this.

These guys were not meekly trying to change a law, they were intimidating and calling for the hanging, stoning and burning of people on the basis they didnt agree with their sex life.
That. Is. Not. Okay.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Free Speech does not protect you from consequences. Time people start to learn that. There are laws against "hate speech" or "incitement to crime" in about every country which values human rights.

If you read the post, they didn't incite crime. They were campaigning for a law to be made for homosexuals to be legally given a death sentence. That's the exact same as campaigning for murderers to be given longer times in prison. It's not a hate crime legally, they were convicted for "inciting hatred". That's the fucked part.

If you support their conviction, you cannot ever again wish paedophiles be imprisoned or vocally oppose their kind; that's hate, being a paedophile isn't illegal, it's a sexual orientation (a fucked up one >_>) and they haven't harmed anyone. Saying hateful things against them is the exact same as saying hateful things against homosexuals. Just that one deserves it and the other doesn't >_>

I think these guys are huge douche bags and I could't care less about them, really. I just feel it is a very dangerous and, quite frankly, pretty fucked uop road to go down if we wanna start locking people up for vocally hating people they think deserve it. You wanna head down a path that could arguably lead to it being a hate crime to hand out leaflets railing a politician or rapist?

Basically: these guys suck, sucked in to them. Maybe not a great idea to imprison them.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

You don't have the right to not be offended and you don't have the right to make laws to keep things that scare you away from you in public.

This law is very new and only exists in the UK. I don't see it lasting long.

Actually its not really a new law its an old law that has been amended. Previously it was only illegal to incite violence against people based on race or religion. They changed it so it now also covers sexual orientation.

Also this has nothing to do with people being offended. Your trying to make this case about something that it isnt because you either didnt read the dam article, were to stupid to understand it, or you just want to have an argument.

There is no grey area in this case if you actually bother to read about what they were doing.

Woah, woah, woah. Is there any need to start calling people "too damn stupid"? We are all having very civil discussions here.

Also, you called me stupid and misspelled "too". That's kind of funny, lol.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Woah, woah, woah. Is there any need to start calling people "too damn stupid"? We are all having very civil discussions here.

Also, you called me stupid and misspelled "too". That's kind of funny, lol.

I can take it that your failure to actually address any of my points is because you know I am right then?

Why would I try to converse with someone who walks into a civil discussion and calls me stupid? If you want to talk to someone, don't call them stupid and lazy in the middle of the conversation >_>

But really, do yourself a favour and leave it there. Name calling and "being a jerk" are both no-no's in the rules. Probably not worth getting in the shit because you don't agree with me.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Also: Just beind a pedophile is NOT illegal. Commiting pedophile acts is. Another thing where you are simply wrong.

being a paedophile isn't illegal

Calm down, stop insulting me, read my posts before calling me ill-informed, lol.

We were all having such an easy going talk until a few people came in, guns blazing and ruined it -_-

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Now now, they're just trying to emulate Iran. After all, there are no homosexuals in Iran.

Imagine being born a gay man or woman over there... What a terrible life

 

[Gerishnakov]

Snip

Calling for violence against a group based on sexuality is a crime under British law, there is no irony in jailing people for calling violence against a group of people because of their sexuality.

You mention that they were just 'calling for the death penalty for homosexuals'. Newsflash: That's one and the same as my first point.

It's not the same as calling for tougher sentences for murders or active paedophiles (I really wish more people would spell that correctly), because those people are criminals. We are all well within our rights to discuss sentencing policy for those people. Are you trying to say that committing 'homosexual acts' is a crime? It's not, that was decriminalised in the 1960s.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Snip

Calling for violence against a group based on sexuality is a crime under British law, there is no irony in jailing people for calling violence against a group of people because of their sexuality.

You mention that they were just 'calling for the death penalty for homosexuals'. Newsflash: That's one and the same as my first point.

It's not the same as calling for tougher sentences for murders or active paedophiles (I really wish more people would spell that correctly), because those people are criminals. We are all well within our rights to discuss sentencing policy for those people. Are you trying to say that committing 'homosexual acts' is a crime? It's not, that was decriminalised in the 1960s.

I'm not saying what these douche bags did wasn't against English law (it was). I'm saying it shouldn't be.

But I do find it interesting that you say "we are well within our rights to discuss sentencing policy for those people"--people we have decided are criminals. How does something become a crime if no one talks about it? You are saying it's okay to talk about crime and punishment of an act AFTER it's been made illegal, but you can't talk about MAKING the law in the first place. Laws are constantly made and what is and isn't 'okay' is always changing. For example, at one point in time, people campaigning against having sex with children were in the minority--it perfectly normal for grown men to take a child as their partner. As such, anyone yelling and shouting about how appalling and disgusting that was, at the time, would be seen exactly the same as we are seeing these men.

Although they went about it in the worst way, I don't believe they did anything wrong personally. If they were encouraging people to actually do the things described to gay people on the street, that's different. I feel they were speaking of what SHOULD be done to them under law. They believe homosexuality is a crime and should be punished with death--a violent death, at that. Some people believe rape is a crime and should be punished with death. Just because homosexuality is a sensitive topic and we don't want to hurt gay people's feelings doesn't mean anything. If someone did exactly what these guys did, but did it in regards to heterosexuality, not a single person would care.

I'm not against homosexuality, btw. Wanna make that clear. I only recently got out of a relationship with a same sex partner.

I won't be able to reply for a while if you respond to this comment, sorry. Not bailing out of any discussion, but I've gotta hit the hay.

EDIT: when I say they believe homosexuality should be punished with death, I mean a death sentence, not a group of guys deciding to do it themselves. They seem to want the courts to convict them and sentence them to execution via those means. Which is insane, but in my eyes, no different than wanting anything else criminalized and punishable with incarceration or a regular death penalty. Just... crazier, lol.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

So those would-be terrorists

How are they would-be terrorists? Deluded and immoral, yeah. Believing Sharia law is the best law doesn't make you a terrorist. If you follow that train of thought, to them, you are a terrorist for believing your law is the best law.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

People would be arrested too if they handed out leaflets saying "I feel offended by the existance of Muslims. Kill all Muslims!"

Oh, and they didn't say "kill gay people." They said "gay people should be killed" in regardless to a death sentence.

There is a fine line of difference, but an important one. One is requesting a law be made that would result in a death sentence, while the other is requesting murder on the streets.

The equivalent would be "Being Muslim is an offense. They should be arrested and executed via hanging" etc., etc.

 

[geK0]

It's not really an arrest for homophobia, more for endorsing/conspiring murder. This would have been just as bad with ANY motivation (ie. if they endorsed the killing of aldulturers, thieves or even murderers)

 

[Melon Hunter]

Snip

Calling for violence against a group based on sexuality is a crime under British law, there is no irony in jailing people for calling violence against a group of people because of their sexuality.

You mention that they were just 'calling for the death penalty for homosexuals'. Newsflash: That's one and the same as my first point.

It's not the same as calling for tougher sentences for murders or active paedophiles (I really wish more people would spell that correctly), because those people are criminals. We are all well within our rights to discuss sentencing policy for those people. Are you trying to say that committing 'homosexual acts' is a crime? It's not, that was decriminalised in the 1960s.

I'm not saying what these douche bags did wasn't against English law (it was). I'm saying it shouldn't be.

But I do find it interesting that you say "we are well within our rights to discuss sentencing policy for those people"--people we have decided are criminals. How does something become a crime if no one talks about it? You are saying it's okay to talk about crime and punishment of an act AFTER it's been made illegal, but you can't talk about MAKING the law in the first place. Laws are constantly made and what is and isn't 'okay' is always changing. For example, at one point in time, people campaigning against having sex with children were in the minority--it perfectly normal for grown men to take a child as their partner. As such, anyone yelling and shouting about how appalling and disgusting that was, at the time, would be seen exactly the same as we are seeing these men.

Although they went about it in the worst way, I don't believe they did anything wrong personally. If they were encouraging people to actually do the things described to gay people on the street, that's different. I feel they were speaking of what SHOULD be done to them under law. They believe homosexuality is a crime and should be punished with death--a violent death, at that. Some people believe rape is a crime and should be punished with death. Just because homosexuality is a sensitive topic and we don't want to hurt gay people's feelings doesn't mean anything. If someone did exactly what these guys did, but did it in regards to heterosexuality, not a single person would care.

I'm not against homosexuality, btw. Wanna make that clear. I only recently got out of a relationship with a same sex partner.

I won't be able to reply for a while if you respond to this comment, sorry. Not bailing out of any discussion, but I've gotta hit the hay.

You keep making these points about how 'wrong' it is for British law to make hate speech illegal, and I don't think you really understand why.

Britain has some very different cultural views on free speech to America, where most of this forum's views seem to be based. America, thanks to the First Amendment, enshrines the rights and freedoms of the individual; free speech is first and foremost, and the idea of one's speech being censored is anathema to the American psyche, regardless of how hateful it is.

Britain, on the other hand, places far more emphasis on the individual's role in society and tolerance. This is why, unlike other European countries, fascism and the Far Right have never taken off in this country, ever since the days of Oswald Mosely - it simply is not something the British people are interested in. This is why, unlike France, we allow multiculturalism and don't pass laws banning the hijab, because the British way is to tolerate differences.

This is why hate speech based on race, gender and sexual orientation is illegal in Britain - it is not OK. It is not an exercise of free speech to call for the deaths of homosexuals. It is an outright abuse. This is why people who say such things as the men you have mentioned are jailed, because they are a threat to society and must be punished as the law states.

And it is not OK to sit there and start denouncing laws that you don't fully understand, particularly with such utterly facetious arguments like comparing homosexuality to paedophilia, or saying 'if this was said about heterosexuality, no one would care'. The hate speech laws recognise that there are limits to one's right to free speech, and to use it to oppress another portion of society is an outright abuse of that right. We have moved on from the days where your place in society was decided by the colour of your skin, or what genitalia you have, or what gender(s) you're attracted to, and people calling for a return to those days in such a violent and aggressive way as these men have deserve to be removed from society just like any other criminal. I would have thought you of all people on this forum would understand that.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Whether or not they were campaigning for homosexuals' execution under law, it was still infringing on other people's rights and inciting hatred. THAT is against the law, so it's good that they were jailed. I mean, what if one of these man handed a leaflet to his friend, who got into his head that he should "take the law into his own hands" if the government aren't doing anything about it and kill a homosexual himself.

This isn't comparable to a campaign for rapists to be executed, because rape IS illegal and those convicted of rape are arrested and put into jail. Homosexuality was made legal YEARS ago, therefore trying to persuade people to persecute and kill human beings that actually haven't committed a crime (and, in the process, frightening many people in your community) is more than suitable grounds to throw them into jail.

 

[PinochetIsMyBro]

This is what happens when you let the government regulate what people can and can't say.

It's all fun and games until suddenly YOUR ideology becomes one of the unacceptable ones. Enjoy your future jail time for doing nothing except speaking your mind.

 

[Realitycrash]

Yeah..If you hand out leaflets calling for the murder of X public group, you deserve to get arrested. I don't see the problem here.

 

[Realitycrash]

This is what happens when you let the government regulate what people can and can't say.

It's all fun and games until suddenly YOUR ideology becomes one of the unacceptable ones. Enjoy your future jail time for doing nothing except speaking your mind.

I don't care what you do, if you use your freedom to say that another group in the same society should be killed, whatever that group may be, you don't deserve your freedom.
If you honestly think this is correct, I fear for whatever other values you may have. Encouraging a criminal act is not protected by the right to free speech.