Entitlement

[Asita]

In this case, I think the car wreck has already happened, and changing the ending would be the equivalent of the wounded driver buckling up after the fact. Can't really make it worse, can't really make it better, either. The crash has already happened, within 24 hours of the game launching (as long as it took the first nerd to run though it as quickly as possible). Except it can make it worse, since putting on the seatbelt costs the driver (studio) money and time, something they aren't willing to do.

...You might want to reread that post, Slayer_2, as I don't think it reads like you seem to think it does. The seatbelt argument was presented as an example of the Perfect Solution Fallacy for illustrative purposes, hence "another invocation might read thusly". I was not drawing an analogy to the seatbelt scenario, I was pointing out the similar fallicious logic used to justify the positions.

 

[Slayer_2]

In this case, I think the car wreck has already happened, and changing the ending would be the equivalent of the wounded driver buckling up after the fact. Can't really make it worse, can't really make it better, either. The crash has already happened, within 24 hours of the game launching (as long as it took the first nerd to run though it as quickly as possible). Except it can make it worse, since putting on the seatbelt costs the driver (studio) money and time, something they aren't willing to do.

...You might want to reread that post, Slayer_2, as I don't think it reads like you seem to think it does. The seatbelt argument was presented as an example of the Perfect Solution Fallacy for illustrative purposes, hence "another invocation might read thusly". I was not drawing an analogy to the seatbelt scenario, I was pointing out the similar fallicious logic used to justify the positions.

I realize it was not an analogy pertaining to the ME3 situation, but it can be well adapted to suit that purpose. My stance is still that nothing Bioware could do at this point will really rectify any damage. The milk has been spilled.

 

[Rawne1980]

then why are you here? If you think so little of this medium, why are you here? How can you say this isn't a piece of art, good or bad, when it clearly has an affect on you, me, and millions of other people?

That's a terrible way to look at games, and demeaning.

I don't think so little of the medium, I really enjoy gaming.

However i'm not going to jump on the "games are art" bandwagon when the truth is we DO pay for a product.

Games are mass produced for the sole purpose of creating income for the people behind said game.

There are some developers out there that care about their work however there are just as money that are in it for the money.

It doesn't matter if the game gives you enjoyment for 5 minutes or 5 years as long as your money goes to them that is their main concern.

In an industry that is mainly about the money, I can't possibly sit here straight faced and defend it as "art".

 

[anthony87]

I wouldn't say they should change the ending but they sure as hell need to fix it....

They could either change the ending or make some DLC to tie things up; the problem with that is that adding DLC would make the DLC the ending, effectively changing the ending.

So no matter what they do, they will be changing the ending.

Which is the exact same thing that Bethesda did with Fallout 3.

 

[Atmos Duality]

then why are you here? If you think so little of this medium, why are you here? How can you say this isn't a piece of art, good or bad, when it clearly has an affect on you, me, and millions of other people?

That's a terrible way to look at games, and demeaning.

Condescending attitudes like this are precisely why I can't get behind the "Games are art" movement.

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone's opinion, and flat out telling them their opinion is wrong just because they don't see the same merits in a work as you (and others) do.

Artistic merit is relative to the beholder; it's not universal.
Some games I find have more utility to them; in that I just want to have fun or test my brain. In others, I can find artistic merits from the graphics and sound right down to the math and mechanics.

But I wouldn't dare try to tell someone that they're being demeaning just because they don't see the same things in a game as me.

 

[Hyper-space]

The games producers describe the product:

"As Mass Effect 3 is the end of the planned trilogy, the developers are not constrained by the necessity of allowing the story to diverge, yet also continue into the next chapter. This will result in a story that diverges
Into wildly different conclusions based on the player's actions in the first two chapters" - Casey Hudson.

"We wouldn't do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can't say any more than that..." - Mike Gamble

To reiterate:

Apparently we forgot how to read hype and took everything at face-value.

Stop buying into the hype, when a developer says something about a game when it still has half a year or so left until release, they do not know whether or not they will manage to put in everything they wanted. Shit might have to be left out of the game or changed due to money and/or time constraints.

What the developer sets out to do and what they actually manage to pull off is not the one and the same. I remember when I visited CCP (the studio behind EVE online) and I got to see how big the initial design-document (what they planned to do) was and how little of a percentage they've managed to accomplish over the years (in terms of the overall design-document). Despite the incredible amount of things that has made it into the game, they have still not come as far as say 30% of what they set out to do. I'm pretty sure that the same goes for Bioware, they might have big plans for the trilogy but inevitably they have to make some difficult choices and leave some things out in the final product.

Also, Casey Hudson running his mouth off may not constitute "advertising" per se. But it does constitute misleading the loyal fanbase or, indeed, anyone who watched / read his interviews. Where that stand from a legal standpoint? I don't know.

From a legal standpoint it means jack-shit. When a restaurant says it has an "exotic" atmosphere, you can't sue it even if you find the atmosphere to be the opposite of exotic. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

From a legal standpoint it means jack-shit. When a restaurant says it has an "exotic" atmosphere, you can't sue it even if you find the atmosphere to be the opposite of exotic. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that.

Hyper-Space and I don't agree on much as pertains to the ending, and whether or not requesting it to be changed is the equivalent of laying siege to art, but he's absolutely right on this count. There is absolutely zero legal culpability here.

Stop buying into the hype, when a developer says something about a game when it still has half a year or so left until release, they do not know whether or not they will manage to put in everything they wanted.

As to this, you're right again, but I don't know if this particular truism would or should apply in this case. This is an utterly bizarre thing to skimp on. You run short of time, so the "feature" you drop is an ending that makes sense? If you put 50 men in a think tank for 50 years to try and puzzle out a more surefire way to enrage your fan base you'd come up empty.

 

[Hyper-space]

Hyper-Space and I don't agree on much as pertains to the ending, and whether or not requesting it to be changed is the equivalent of laying siege to art, but he's absolutely right on this count. There is absolutely zero legal culpability here.

I'm all for people voicing whatever opinion they might have, shit, that's why we have this forum in the place. I get if people (not you specifically) are upset over the ending, even though I personally liked it, but there is no legal obligation on Bioware's part to change anything (which is why I think that whole Better Business Bureau petition is stupid).

Stop buying into the hype, when a developer says something about a game when it still has half a year or so left until release, they do not know whether or not they will manage to put in everything they wanted.

As to this, you're right again, but I don't know if this particular truism would or should apply in this case. This is an utterly bizarre thing to skimp on. You run short of time, so the "feature" you drop is an ending that makes sense? If you put 50 men in a think tank for 50 years to try and puzzle out a more surefire way to enrage your fan base you'd come up empty.[/quote]
Well, we have to take a step back and realize that there is a lot of unknowns at work here. Maybe they had to balance out skimping on the ending or whatever to better focus on larger things (gameplay, story, whatever) and again, we don't know.

Plus, I don't think you need to do a whole lot now to enrage the Bioware community. For some inexplicable reason, Bioware's community went on a goddamn misinformation crusade against TOR. Why might they do that? Shit, no reason at all, its not like the TOR went around harassing nuns and kicking puppies in the face.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Plus, I don't think you need to do a whole lot now to enrage the Bioware community. For some inexplicable reason, Bioware's community went on a goddamn misinformation crusade against TOR. Why might they do that? Shit, no reason at all, its not like the TOR went around harassing nuns and kicking puppies in the face.

People dislike certain genres, but when it comes to MMORPGs, that hate gets kicked up to 11. I made a thread about it a while back and by page 6 or 7 I had people more or less calling me Hitler for trying to defend them.

Personally I enjoyed TOR, but I'm also part of "Bioware's Community" as I've been an ardent fan of their product since Baldur's Gate.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I feel everything Bioware ever promised was delivered in ME3. The problem was what I (ad hominem attack).

Everyone strawman strawman strawman strawman sweeping generalization strawman. They also strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman strawmanstrawman strawman strawman strawman. There are a few ways to get there, and you can't change what happened, but strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman strawman sweeping generalization strawman strawman strawman strawman. (personal attack).

Now is where the problem comes in... everyone loved the world a lot or the story or the gameplay (who knows their reason) but when it came time to end the series it turns out they didn't like it. And instead of getting over it they started this (hyperbole).

A lot of games have had something bad, but (personal opinion stated as fact). If bioware had messed up the game and it just crashed constantly I'd understand. Strawman. Personal attack believe this happened.

Well said! You've perfectly summarized the argument of the Retake ME3 backlash.

 

[CaptOfSerenity]

then why are you here? If you think so little of this medium, why are you here? How can you say this isn't a piece of art, good or bad, when it clearly has an affect on you, me, and millions of other people?

That's a terrible way to look at games, and demeaning.

Condescending attitudes like this are precisely why I can't get behind the "Games are art" movement.

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone's opinion, and flat out telling them their opinion is wrong just because they don't see the same merits in a work as you (and others) do.

Artistic merit is relative to the beholder; it's not universal.
Some games I find have more utility to them; in that I just want to have fun or test my brain. In others, I can find artistic merits from the graphics and sound right down to the math and mechanics.

But I wouldn't dare try to tell someone that they're being demeaning just because they don't see the same things in a game as me.

I didn't actually say it was wrong, just that it was demeaning. Opinion.

I also didn't say art is universally good; I said it was good or bad. Opinion.

And you wouldn't say that idea is demeaning because you don't think it is. Opinion.

I like the pattern of the sentences I made. It gets slightly longer each time.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I didn't actually say it was wrong, just that it was demeaning. Opinion.

But how is that demeaning? How is it offensive?

Whether something is art or not in itself is subjective. You cannot objectify it to begin with! Whether the ART is good or bad does not matter towards this end.
(there is a difference, which is why I mentioned it in the first place).

To declare something artistic or as having artistic elements means that YOU interpret it as artistic. That interpretation is purely subjective.

Therefore, telling him that he MUST find some sort of artistic value (good or bad) is inherently flawed. S/He may not see anything more than a video game; a product. You can't FORCE someone to see things that way; it is NOT FACT, but you are assuming that it is ("How can you not see games are art?" to paraphrase).

What you said could be taken as "You don't share the same opinion/premise as mine (games are/not art), so why did you even bother to post in the first place?" based upon the premise I just explained above.

It comes across as condescending, which was my point.

 

[Fumbles]

If I am promised a product that does X, I'm entitled to a product that does X, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund. If I am promised a product that does not do Y, I am entitled to a product that does not do Y, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund.

Simple as, I'm entitled to what I was promised I'd get.

In any industry, no matter what product is concerned. And as a consumer, I have my rights. One of my rights is to not have to "suck it up and take it", I am entitled to standing up for myself and actively - and reactively - fight against being ripped off.

That said, this was a general statement, because frankly, I've talked about the specific case of ME3 long enough and I'm not continuing that charade.

So if you buy a book that you did not like the ending, then YOU should get a full refund, or the author MUST change the ending? If so I should be rich... I'm looking at you Dark Tower series...

 

[Vegosiux]

So if you buy a book that you did not like the ending, then YOU should get a full refund, or the author MUST change the ending? If so I should be rich... I'm looking at you Dark Tower series...

Nope, that's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if I'm promised a horror novel but it turns out to be a (badly written) corny romance novel, then I have every right to speak up and call them out on ripping me off, and demand compensation.

 

[Oro44]

I think the bottom line is that the complaints are valid, the demands are not. However, I still believe it's in Bioware's interest to change the ending because appeasing the fans will make them more money. They'll catch flak from reviewers and some fans for "caving", but, as a corporation, they're going to do what gets them the monies. Even if they make you pay for the DLC, guess what? People will buy it.