Epic Mickey Offers No Choice

[FarmerMonkey]

Moral choice systems in games are still maturing, but as far as I'm concerned, Bioware has definitely explored this the most effectively. I see a lot of love for Mass Effect in the thread.

Any of you guys play Jade Empire? That was one of my all-time favorites in terms of role-playing/dialog/branching stories, and one of the few games where I could actually stomach playing through the story as the "evil" character. Instead of calling the moral system in the game "good vs evil", it was about two competing philosophies, "open palm vs closed fist" or something like that. Following the way of the Closed Fist often made you a grade A prick, but you were never being evil for evil's sake. The philosophy was all about valuing strength above all other values--let the weak fend for themselves, not out of cruelty, but because the struggle will make them stronger. If you take away their incentive to struggle, you promote weakness. Etc.

While the Bioshock series has thus far had a pretty rudimentary moral choice system--not quite evil for evil's sake, but evil for power's sake, its exploration of the pitfalls of strict individualism or collectivism are way more mature than most of what the gaming medium has had to offer.

 

[FarmerMonkey]

Would you rescue one baby or five old people?

I read an interesting story about that once actually, you are standing near a switch, there is a train coming in, on one set of rails is fat man, on the other there are 5 people, if you pull the switch the fat man dies, if you don't the 5 people live.

Most people say they would pull the switch, 5 for 1 and all that jazz.

Now same situation, only there is no switch, and the only way to stop the train from hitting the 5 people is to throw the fat man in front of it (just roll with it).

Would you still do it? Most people say no, but morally it's the exact same choice, trading one life for five, you're hands are just a little dirtier.

Just how fat is this person that his bulk is capable of halting a speeding locomotive?

And are we getting into a eugenics discussion here? Weed out the fatties?

 

[Falseprophet]

Actually, I think I'd prefer to see faction approvals, like Daggerfall (Elder Scrolls II) had. E.g., doing action X makes the merchants and guards happy, but pisses off the thieves and nobles, while doing action Y makes the guards and nobles happy, but pisses off the church and merchants, and action Z makes the thieves happy, but pisses everyone else off.

Dragon Age almost pulls this off on a personal level, but assigning numbers to it and letting you bribe past it with gifts makes it more like a dating sim than a real choice system. Like the last Extra Credits video put it, it's a calculation, not a choice.

Speaking of Extra Credits, I think they mentioned the faction approval system on their old YouTube video on Moral Choices.

 

[ewhac]

Just how fat is this person that his bulk is capable of halting a speeding locomotive?

And are we getting into a eugenics discussion here? Weed out the fatties?

I confess with some shame that I found myself thinking along the same lines.

And who are the five other people? Are these the same five old people in Yahtzee's example? And what is wrong with them that they keep putting themselves in situations like this?

 

[JakeOfRavenclaw]

I'd say that one of the best moral choices I've encountered in gaming was during a playthrough of Bioshock 2. Near the end, I encountered a room full of enemies. The twist was that they weren't attacking me; they were rocking back and forth holding their knees, looking terrified. I was presented with a nasty choice; should I still kill them, and as they are undoubtably enemies, (or better phrased, do I have the right to kill them unprovoked) or should I leave them alone as they haven't attacked me, but potentially risk being assaulted the second I turn my back. I stayed in the room pondering for a solid two minutes, before I decided to let them live.

Yes! I loved that level, and I too let them live. I wish they had done more with including splicers who, if not actively friendly, were at least not actively hostile to the player. It seemed like a bit of a stretch that for every single person in Rapture to go all homicidal, and I always imagined that there may have been still functional communities barricaded into other parts of the city.

I also thought that the confrontation with Stanley Poole in Bioshock 2 was very well done, in terms of moral ambiguity.

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Well, Disney aren't Obsidian, Bioware, or Black Isle. They make stuff for kids. Even if that stuff might be absolutely terrible.

 

[Deathkingo]

I think Pepsi is better than Coke...

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"Is Coke better than Pepsi? Well, yes, but they both make you fat."
Epic truth

 

[killa_kid]

Actually, Alpha Protocol did something like that. It was one of the few things NOT terribly broken, but since the game tanked so poorly, I'll be surprised if we see any other devs implementing a similar system.

I was actually just about to mention this. I played through the game twice (I really liked it and could handle the bugs). The first time, I tried the be nice to everyone approach. The story was really full, plot twists and little things along the way. However on my second play through, I was ruthless. If I had an option to kill or piss anyone off I did. The story was so limited. Basically first impressions were everything because no one gave me other details. I wish I had played it the other way around, because it would have been nice to go from a small storyline to a much larger expanded one.

The game was far from perfect, but your choices did matter for the story (mostly with flat out killing people).

 

[ewhac]

BTW, for an interesting take on the whole ethical dilemma thing, there's a cute bit in Jasper Fforde's First Among Sequels [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Among_Sequels] -- fifth in his Thursday Next [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thursday_Next] series -- in which Thursday finds herself on a ship where a curious number of things are going terribly wrong. (You may enjoy it more if you read the previous four books first).

 

[FarmerMonkey]

Just how fat is this person that his bulk is capable of halting a speeding locomotive?

And are we getting into a eugenics discussion here? Weed out the fatties?

I confess with some shame that I found myself thinking along the same lines.

And who are the five other people? Are these the same five old people in Yahtzee's example? And what is wrong with them that they keep putting themselves in situations like this?

Furthermore, if this elephantine gentleman has enough mass to stop the speeding locomotive, how in bloody hell am I going to push him onto the tracks to save the five people of ambiguous size, age, and race? I exercise regularly, but I'm not taking HGH or anything. Do I use a bulldozer? Or are the train tracks perhaps on a steep hill, and I just need to nudge Fattie over the crest?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Yahtzee, good sir, you're probably the most intelligent person ever to be connected to gaming. This article was a new triumph for you, these are all brilliant points which I find myself almost in total agreement with. Happy new year and keep your brutal standards running throughout 2011.

 

[ShenCS]

Does anyone remember the choices in Tales of Symphonia? They had no impact on the story, but were there and had a real impact on the subtler ways characters felt about you, which I thought was interesting. The options tended to be divided by cynicism and idealism, which was respresented with the more mature and younger characters. What's more, on your first playthrough, you won't notice all the effects it does have (usually about what characters are willing to accompany Lloyd, which ones don't seem to care and which ones would really rather not). Added a lot of replay value when you first find out about it!

As for Epic Mickey, here's an idea: the good paint would turn the monsters into allies that would follow you, help you find shortcuts and fight other enemies - but there's a chance that they will switch back and turn on you at any moment. The thinner would destroy them outright but would mean you will be alone throughout your journey.

Personally, I think developers need to turn away from labelling choices "good" and "evil" and instead make the character's choice be lawful or chaotic. Define the character as good or evil from the start, and tailor the choices to that. I think this would allow more room for various choices as well.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

I think the problem is less with the choices and more with the rewards. The "good" choices should never have overt rewards. The reward for being good should be the world gets overall better through your actions but it can be as subtle as npc reactions.

One of the few good things about Fallout NV was the one time I sided with the powder gangers and killed all the townspeople. I came back later and one of the settlers said "hell of a way to thank doc for fixing you up." That contempt was more stinging than any stat or inventory loss.

I could have just killed the guy without consequences but that would have cemented my character's personality as an insecure bully and as a player that made me pause and think about what the townspeople's deaths meant in-game.

Mass effect was a good example of better choice options than "lawful chump" and "chaotic psycho". I want the ability to play a person who acts duplicitous and everyone loves because he never leaves witnesses? Or how about playing a good person who circumstances make everyone hate?

 

[sketchesofpayne]

A good way to make the straightforward evil/good choice more meaningful is attaching an in-game faction modifier to it. Making evil choices makes certain factions like you and good choices others. Then have each of the factions provide DIFFERENT benefits. This creates dilemmas such as 'I want to do the right thing here, but if I save this supply ship Faction B will stop selling me ammo for my Ubergun, and they're the only suppliers!' For bonus points the game includes a riskier option of saving the crew on board without saving the ship. Such as docking your own ship to it and having to evacuate the crew before time runs out.

 

[mr_thrym]

The central choice in Fallout 3's Pitt expansion knocked me for a loop:

SPOILERS

I was all about toppling the slaver regime and stealing the cure to the plague. THEN I discover that this means stealing a baby from her loving parents who plan to eventually cure everyone and handing her over to a grad-A a-hole who may or may not have society's best intentions at heart. I was stuck with either maintaining a horrible status quo or destroying it, orphaning a child, and possibly not making anything all that better.

I literally spent a couple *days* pondering what to do before I decided that my anti-slaver policy meant I *had* to bring down the regime, no matter how disgusted I was with the idea of orphaning a child and handing her over to a scumbag. Once I'd done it, though, I immediately left the Pitt and never wanted to see it again.

 

[SageRuffin]

My grandma's the racist, and it's not against Asians/Orientals, it's against Hispanics/Latinos. Oh boy... the stuff that flies out of her mouth...

What are we talking about again? Oh right, the whole moral choice thing. For the most part, it's agreed that too many games have things split up into being either a delightful little harmless fairy or a psychotic jackass with no redeeming value. I still say to this day that Jade EMpire had the best approach with the "Open Palm vs. Closed Fist" thing, but even that ultimately boiled down to being a godsend or a (borderline) heartless bastard.

Oh, and fuck Coke. It's all about Canada Dry ginger ale.

 

[CopperBoom]

Mountain Dew Master Race reporting in. Coke sucks.

I like Coke Zero best, but they (soft drink corps.) are all evil for various reasons.

That said, pop makes you fat?
Like, bread-makes-you-fat fat?

 

[Daveman]

My father honestly thinks The Legion is the best option in New Vegas.
He is republican.

I... see...
Having played through New Vegas now twice I really don't get the benfits of the Legion. I initially played through the game as I would be myself; helpful, intelligent and kind but in the face of atrocities like the legions crimes in Nipton, vengeful but righteous. I ended up helping everyone and befriending the Kings, the NCR and all until I came across the Brotherhood of Steel who said I should destroy the Van Graffs. I had initially tried to become one of them due to my energy weapon preference in game but as they were clearly evil I had little conscience when it came to exterminating them (so I killed that one group, oh, and all the fiends too). I had Mr House unplugged because I thought I could do better for the surrounding area of Vegas than he had done and the NCR was just too much of a delayed beurocracy to do anything useful. At the end I wanted the NCR to stick around but it gave no option for me so I had to kick them out.

What's the point of this? I played the first time as I believed was right. But this meant I had little run in with the Legion at all apart from beating them at Nipton, seeing Caesar and at the end. So I did an evil run through.

Now this is where it becomes relevant to the discussion; I could see no viable reason to support the Legion. Yes they imposed law but it was an unbalanced, unrealistic expectation of society where following orders was rewarded above personal achievment. Where science was effectively banned. Where all women are subjugated and many more are enslaved. Not to mention Caesar being a TOTAL douche, I mean I wiped out the entire fucking Brotherhood of steel using only a big bit of metal and my fists and is he even grateful?! NO! There is no redeeming set of ideals for the Legion, I had to entirely force myself to be evil. The Legion kind of evil is just retarded and the sort nobody could agree with, especially as there seem to be no benefits whatsoever. No sidekicks that I found, only 3 arena matches to challenge myself with and thankless tasks from people I could easily kill with my 100 unarmed or melee skill and 9 strength. I wanted to stay in character and kill the general at the end but I just couldn't do it, my willpower was worn out, so I just talked him out of it... like a pussy... *sigh*...

Oh, btw, ^^^^ a few spoilers.

 

[wammnebu]

Io Saturnalia to you too