Erttheking's Guidelines to Critical Debate

[EvilRoy]

Its nice that you took the time to write this all up for yourself and presumably us, but lets be realistic here - nobody who actually needs desperately to read and care about this is going to. There will be no heart stopping epiphanies where somebody says "oh man, I'm NOT supposed to be tremendously snarky in every post? I had no idea!"

Everyone else already knows and keeps to it exactly enough to avoid sanctions and up to the amount of effort they personally deem acceptable. I think that may be where some of the accusations of condescension comes from. The idea that I somehow don't know these rules based on the barest interaction with other humans face to face is actually a little insulting. The truth of the matter is that I have a certain maximum amount of effort I'm willing to devote to interactions with faceless nameless people whom I will never meet in person.

 

[Teoes]

Spoiler: over-used but appropriate

I can understand the frustrations that will have lead ert to posting this, as much as I can understand the kick-back reaction it's getting.

Unfortunately I also feel that the people to whom this is most directed, those who could best do with heeding these suggestions, are exactly the people who won't listen and will simply carry on up the khyber.

 

[Erttheking]

To expand, I don't like it when members on the forum think they're entitled to "advise" others on how they should post.

Because all the nonsense surrounding all the controversies of the past year sure doesn't show that lots of folks who interact on the internet could use a bit of a change in how they interact with other people. Hell, where do you think OP's frustrations come from?

The forum already has rules for posters to follow, beyond that, who cares?


If people want to be arseholes within the rules of the site, let them be arseholes. It's less irritating than people going around dictating their personal list of do's and don't's for posting on Internet forums, shaking their fingers and tut-tutting because they don't feel as though someone has contributed enough or in the right way.

That is not what I'm trying to get across at all. When it comes to critical debate about politics or something of similar importance or passion, common sense tends to get thrown out the window in favor of people getting mad and shouting at each other, and it tends to devolve into meaningless noise. I'm trying to propose solutions to that.

You've got to admit that when it comes to debating politics or something to that degree, intelligent thinking and common respect are usually the first causalities.

 

[Erttheking]

Its nice that you took the time to write this all up for yourself and presumably us, but lets be realistic here - nobody who actually needs desperately to read and care about this is going to. There will be no heart stopping epiphanies where somebody says "oh man, I'm NOT supposed to be tremendously snarky in every post? I had no idea!"

Everyone else already knows and keeps to it exactly enough to avoid sanctions and up to the amount of effort they personally deem acceptable. I think that may be where some of the accusations of condescension comes from. The idea that I somehow don't know these rules based on the barest interaction with other humans face to face is actually a little insulting. The truth of the matter is that I have a certain maximum amount of effort I'm willing to devote to interactions with faceless nameless people whom I will never meet in person.

Everyone knows, of that I have little doubt. But in the heat of the moment it's surprisingly easy to forget. Like I said, I admitted to having problem with three of those rules, one of them fairly often.

When things are getting passionate and everyone's getting mad, it's easy to do things that you would never do while you were calm and thinking rationally.

Really absolutely everyone has problems with these things. Myself included.

 

[visiblenoise]

Its nice that you took the time to write this all up for yourself and presumably us, but lets be realistic here - nobody who actually needs desperately to read and care about this is going to. There will be no heart stopping epiphanies where somebody says "oh man, I'm NOT supposed to be tremendously snarky in every post? I had no idea!"

Everyone else already knows and keeps to it exactly enough to avoid sanctions and up to the amount of effort they personally deem acceptable. I think that may be where some of the accusations of condescension comes from. The idea that I somehow don't know these rules based on the barest interaction with other humans face to face is actually a little insulting. The truth of the matter is that I have a certain maximum amount of effort I'm willing to devote to interactions with faceless nameless people whom I will never meet in person.

Everyone knows, of that I have little doubt. But in the heat of the moment it's surprisingly easy to forget. Like I said, I admitted to having problem with three of those rules, one of them fairly often.

When things are getting passionate and everyone's getting mad, it's easy to do things that you would never do while you were calm and thinking rationally.

Really absolutely everyone has problems with these things. Myself included.

Are you absolutely sure you don't sometimes make a snarky remark because the guy was asking for it, maybe also for some fun at the same time? Comeooon, admit it! I'd prefer that over the thought of losing control over the things you intentionally post online.

 

[Erttheking]

Its nice that you took the time to write this all up for yourself and presumably us, but lets be realistic here - nobody who actually needs desperately to read and care about this is going to. There will be no heart stopping epiphanies where somebody says "oh man, I'm NOT supposed to be tremendously snarky in every post? I had no idea!"

Everyone else already knows and keeps to it exactly enough to avoid sanctions and up to the amount of effort they personally deem acceptable. I think that may be where some of the accusations of condescension comes from. The idea that I somehow don't know these rules based on the barest interaction with other humans face to face is actually a little insulting. The truth of the matter is that I have a certain maximum amount of effort I'm willing to devote to interactions with faceless nameless people whom I will never meet in person.

Everyone knows, of that I have little doubt. But in the heat of the moment it's surprisingly easy to forget. Like I said, I admitted to having problem with three of those rules, one of them fairly often.

When things are getting passionate and everyone's getting mad, it's easy to do things that you would never do while you were calm and thinking rationally.

Really absolutely everyone has problems with these things. Myself included.

Are you absolutely sure you don't sometimes make a snarky remark because the guy was asking for it, maybe also for some fun at the same time? Comeooon, admit it! I'd prefer that over the thought of losing control over the things you intentionally post online.

To be honest I probably felt that at the time, but looking back it probably didn't really do anything productive at the time. Which is fine if I'm not trying to have a productive conversation, but if I am...it doesn't really do much.

 

[EvilRoy]

Everyone knows, of that I have little doubt. But in the heat of the moment it's surprisingly easy to forget. Like I said, I admitted to having problem with three of those rules, one of them fairly often.

When things are getting passionate and everyone's getting mad, it's easy to do things that you would never do while you were calm and thinking rationally.

Really absolutely everyone has problems with these things. Myself included.

Easy to forget, in the heat of the moment, but not really what I was referring to. What I'm talking about is how much effort people put into not forgetting when incidents arose from circumstance - all you've done is produce a list. Unless you intend for all of us to print it out and post it beside our computers with some sort of attention grabbing sticker on it I don't see how this list will encourage me to extend my effort beyond the usual.

 

[Erttheking]

Everyone knows, of that I have little doubt. But in the heat of the moment it's surprisingly easy to forget. Like I said, I admitted to having problem with three of those rules, one of them fairly often.

When things are getting passionate and everyone's getting mad, it's easy to do things that you would never do while you were calm and thinking rationally.

Really absolutely everyone has problems with these things. Myself included.

Easy to forget, in the heat of the moment, but not really what I was referring to. What I'm talking about is how much effort people put into not forgetting when incidents arose from circumstance - all you've done is produce a list. Unless you intend for all of us to print it out and post it beside our computers with some sort of attention grabbing sticker on it I don't see how this list will encourage me to extend my effort beyond the usual.

That's not what I was getting at. People have a tendency to not even realize that they do these things considering it's in the heat of the moment. The human brain is a funny thing like that, it has a way of justifying things, making you think "Well when I do it it's ok" and the nature of what they do is rather lost on them.

If you don't do that, then that's great! Sadly most people don't have that level of self awareness.

 

[visiblenoise]

Are you absolutely sure you don't sometimes make a snarky remark because the guy was asking for it, maybe also for some fun at the same time? Comeooon, admit it! I'd prefer that over the thought of losing control over the things you intentionally post online.

To be honest I probably felt that at the time, but looking back it probably didn't really do anything productive at the time. Which is fine if I'm not trying to have a productive conversation, but if I am...it doesn't really do much.

But then the question is: if the guy was really asking for snarky remark, or otherwise led you to act less-than-civil, how productive would the conversation possibly have become from that point onward?

 

[EvilRoy]

That's not what I was getting at. People have a tendency to not even realize that they do these things considering it's in the heat of the moment. The human brain is a funny thing like that, it has a way of justifying things, making you think "Well when I do it it's ok" and the nature of what they do is rather lost on them.

Yes, that's right. So what about your original post will help people not forget when one thing leads to another when we are young? It's a list, and we agree that most people are already aware of what is on the list - so what specifically about this list will keep people from forgetting the things they already know in the heat of the moment, when they tell us what their heart meant?

 

[Erttheking]

That's not what I was getting at. People have a tendency to not even realize that they do these things considering it's in the heat of the moment. The human brain is a funny thing like that, it has a way of justifying things, making you think "Well when I do it it's ok" and the nature of what they do is rather lost on them.

Yes, that's right. So what about your original post will help people not forget when one thing leads to another when we are young? It's a list, and we agree that most people are already aware of what is on the list - so what specifically about this list will keep people from forgetting the things they already know in the heat of the moment, when they tell us what their heart meant?

I wouldn't go with most. That requires a certain faith in the human face that's, for me at least, been dashed on the rocks long ago.

Hell if I know man. I wanted to do something and this was the best idea I could come up with.

 

[DerpHerpilous]

Everyone knows, of that I have little doubt. But in the heat of the moment it's surprisingly easy to forget. Like I said, I admitted to having problem with three of those rules, one of them fairly often.

When things are getting passionate and everyone's getting mad, it's easy to do things that you would never do while you were calm and thinking rationally.

Really absolutely everyone has problems with these things. Myself included.

Easy to forget, in the heat of the moment, but not really what I was referring to. What I'm talking about is how much effort people put into not forgetting when incidents arose from circumstance - all you've done is produce a list. Unless you intend for all of us to print it out and post it beside our computers with some sort of attention grabbing sticker on it I don't see how this list will encourage me to extend my effort beyond the usual.

Here's the thing: I doubt he expects you to follow this list. It's more for his own use than anyone else's. His hope is that other people read it and modify it to their own needs so that they can have productive, intelligent discussions about things rather than resort to the numerous times threads about literally anything turning into dick waiving competitions and shouting matches. That's the only reason he made a public post about this. As an aside to the people claiming that it's condescending, or that these rules are TOO MUCH ALL WE NEED IS FORUM RULES, he isn't saying you MUST follow this list. It's in the title that these are simply guidelines, and they are his specifically. This means only one thing: that he will be using these guidelines as much as he can. You can use them as you see fit, including not using them.

OT: I think this list is pretty well thought out, keep up the good work Ert.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

Hmyeah. "Alright everybody, shut up and do exactly as I say".

 

[Erttheking]

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

Hmyeah. "Alright everybody, shut up and do exactly as I say".

That is not what I said at all. There's a reason I called it a guide and not a rule book. I said people should CONSIDER these guidelines.

I'd be happy to hear any flaws you think my ideas have though.

 

[Ishal]

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: are you saying that you go into threads that you don't have an interest in the contents of, to add things that don't contribute to them?

You'll find this attitude common among many posters here. They don't care about the OP, they'll just wade in, perhaps quote someone (or multiple people), and jump down their throat to argue.

I guess it must be fun or something. Some enjoyment must be had. After a while you'll start to see the familiar faces jump in on certain topics. Then it's to the ignore list.

OT: Ert, I think you're a pretty good guy. You're one of the more polite folks around here, or at the very least you make an effort to be. I get what you're trying to do, but I don't think its going to work. Just look at the thread. People aren't going to change. Despite the topics discussed around here, some of them more serious than others, this board it recreational in nature. People come here to enjoy themselves. And if acting rude, snarky, passive aggressive, and condescending are what they enjoy... well, nothing is likely to change.

 

[Vault101]

I thought I had the monopoly on telling people how to forum!

I agree with the general sentiment here and your hearts in the right place but this is something I don't agree with

#3: The movement you support is not special. Every movement has flaws. EVERY! ONE! Not just the ones you don't like. It's perfectly fine to point out flaws with a movement, so long as its in a way that leads to intelligent conversation and isn't just "THESE GUYS SUCK!" but please keep in mind that if you're trying to make it look like your movement has the high ground, it probably doesn't. Because if it's made up of Human beings using the internet, there are unavoidably going to be assholes.

we all know what you're talking about here

I think there's this tendency to view the world as a kind of yin-yang collection of equal opposites so we can at times throw our hands up in the air and say [I/]"well guys it appears both sides are equally right/wrong so therefore they invalidate each other"[/I] because that's a very nice neat box way of looking at things, but its not always that simple and it can often be used in a very disingenuous way

yes its nessicary to check ourselves (which ties into the emotion points....incredibly hard) but I am not obligated to accept another "side" as equal or valid just because someone can make a metaphor and or comparison

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

We had a thread like this a week or two ago. Oh well, I'll mention some of the things I mentioned then.

1. Accept that you could be wrong. Stop trying to 'win' an argument; it's the internet you get nothing and just end up feeling silly. The whole point of debating each other is for someone to learn something. If you're not learning something 90% of the time, you're probably doing it wrong (and I'm not talking about ad-homenim shit-flinging fests).

2. Stay on point. Do not change topic willy-nilly.

3. Admit when someone else has a point. Don't roll over and die, just say "fair enough, however..." or something along those lines.

4. And perhaps most importantly:

Stop

doing

this

answer

the comment

in

full

this

helps

no

one

EDIT: This has devolved into more of a shitfight than the last one did.

 

[Erttheking]

I thought I had the monopoly on telling people how to forum!

I agree with the general sentiment here and your hearts in the right place but this is something I don't agree with

#3: The movement you support is not special. Every movement has flaws. EVERY! ONE! Not just the ones you don't like. It's perfectly fine to point out flaws with a movement, so long as its in a way that leads to intelligent conversation and isn't just "THESE GUYS SUCK!" but please keep in mind that if you're trying to make it look like your movement has the high ground, it probably doesn't. Because if it's made up of Human beings using the internet, there are unavoidably going to be assholes.

we all know what you're talking about here

I think there's this tendency to view the world as a kind of yin-yang collection of equal opposites so we can at times throw our hands up in the air and say [I/]"well guys it appears both sides are equally right/wrong so therefore they invalidate each other"[/I] because that's a very nice neat box way of looking at things, but its not always that simple and it can often be used in a very disingenuous way

yes its nessicary to check ourselves (which ties into the emotion points....incredibly hard) but I am not obligated to accept another "side" as equal or valid just because someone can make a metaphor and or comparison

Hey, that's perfectly fine. I'm just saying that if you're criticizing a movement, you should focus on criticizing the movement instead of using it as a springboard to talk about how awesome your movement is. Legitimate criticism tends to get lost in translation there.

At the very least don't start arguments that way. Defend your movement when it's under attack from unfair criticism? Certainly. Point out hypocrisy? Certainly. Just don't let things fall into an us vs them mindset and remember that your movement has flaws too. They may not be equal, but they're there.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I could add a whole heap of things about logical fallacies, and 'unethical discuscusion techneques, but I already see where this thread is going.

Besides, everyone loves using unethical discussion techniques. Often without even realising that's what they are doing...

And of course, the beloved strawman argument. In which you construct an extreme argument that is easy to mock, attribute it to the other party, then claim victory, even though you 'beat' an entirely imaginary argument that has nothing to do with what anyone said.

 

[MirenBainesUSMC]

It would be nice in a perfect world but just as people behave differently over the phone, they behave even more dreadful hiding behind an avatar and e-muscles.

Grammar ninjas. Trolls. Condescending folks wanting to stir the pot on purpose. Mixed age groups behaving badly --- sometimes the young being more tolerant than the old and vice versa. No one ever walks away with a changed mind and unfortunately, modern debate seems to be some contest of wills where one debater HAS TO get an edge over the other in some tough man/tough girl contest --- and really conversation and debate was made to enlighten and/or produce an actual conversation rather than a vocal judo match.

Its extreemly rare to find but when it does work, some amazing back and fourth can occur but 95% of the time, someone either gets banned or worse --- whom ever gets pissed off the most finds a hacker friend to attack the very site the conversation was hosted upon or some other vice. SO... yeah.

Nothing substitutes face to face talk where most people change their demeanor to a more polite manner --- masks and avatars simply bring out inner demons and idle hands...which are the devil's tools.