Escape to the Movies: Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Dark and Action-Packed

[Stupidity]

"Hey, you know, this might just make things MORE chaotic," or
"how does that target-predicting algorithm work again?" (Black Widow actually DOES ask this, LOL!) or,
"How does shooting enormous bullets into buildings distinguish individual, named threats?" or
"There's only 3 of these and they're literally moving block-to-block (world domination in 3 months?).", or--best of all:
"it would take any and every airfoce minutes to bomb one of these things out of the sky."

Those hell-carriers were nothing like tanks. They are simply flying battleships including modern battleship missile defenses and if you remember the Avengers, they can go invisible. Trying to fight them with an airforce or even every airforce would be every kind of dumb. Wouldn't take long for some genius to airburst emp them though as there is no way that little server farms in the glass domes are emp hardened.

But ya, your right, the whole mysterious algorithm to find dissidents based on credit card purchases and test scores is more politics than science and the murder of millions of people by flying genocide battleships is a stupid stupid plan for world domination, especially when you've already been outed as the guys responsible.

I mean come on, those things weren't precision weapons, to get rid of 20 million targets they'd have to bomb the world into the stone age. kind of the opposite of bringing "Order" to the world.

 

[gorfias]

"Hey, you know, this might just make things MORE chaotic," or
"how does that target-predicting algorithm work again?" (Black Widow actually DOES ask this, LOL!) or,
"How does shooting enormous bullets into buildings distinguish individual, named threats?" or
"There's only 3 of these and they're literally moving block-to-block (world domination in 3 months?).", or--best of all:
"it would take any and every airfoce minutes to bomb one of these things out of the sky."

Those hell-carriers were nothing like tanks. They are simply flying battleships including modern battleship missile defenses and if you remember the Avengers, they can go invisible. Trying to fight them with an airforce or even every airforce would be every kind of dumb. Wouldn't take long for some genius to airburst emp them though as there is no way that little server farms in the glass domes are emp hardened.

But ya, your right, the whole mysterious algorithm to find dissidents based on credit card purchases and test scores is more politics than science and the murder of millions of people by flying genocide battleships is a stupid stupid plan for world domination, especially when you've already been outed as the guys responsible.

I mean come on, those things weren't precision weapons, to get rid of 20 million targets they'd have to bomb the world into the stone age. kind of the opposite of bringing "Order" to the world.

We actually have the tech. to do very similar things these helecarier things do. Lots of international law about them is likely the only reason they don't exist (outside of the drone bombings to target a problem person and kill him and anyone hanging out with him in that time zone.

The movie is a little too smug with itself in that, suppose the nightmare scenario Redford describes actually happens? There really are things to fear out there.

I do think all sorts of things can be gleaned with seemingly random information about people. That's why the government is getting so into collecting such data.

 

[cerebus23]

yea profile with the ability to arrest and hold people without charge or warrant, profile people that disgree with you politically, profile people that disagree with you religiously, arrest people based off their profile and you administrations political leanings great idea for a run away corrupt government that tried to keep this out of the public entirely.

get caught red handed breaking the law and excusing it with it for your protection, i have some swamp land i would love to sell anyone that believes any of it.

 

[shintakie10]

Am I the only person who thought the fight scenes were just utter balls? The quick cuts were worse than anythin Michael Bay ever came up with in Transformers and it was damn near impossible to keep track of where everyone was and what was goin on.

Other than the shit fight scenes it was an enjoyable movie.

 

[akkronym]

I get that moviebob's politics are quite public at this point so maybe I shouldn't be surprised, but it bothers me a bit that in a movie that has a lot to do with spying on people, drone strikes, conspiracy, and going after present or future whistle blowers that the focus on "Why this was relevant" was entirely on the Bush administration but made no mention of the NSA, Edward Snowden, or Wikileaks which, from my perspective, were far larger and more topical influences on the plot of the movie than a picture of Dick Cheney.

I'm not interested in getting *into* the politics present and I highly doubt that I or anyone else will receive a reply or comment from Bob on this matter, but I hope he sees this comment or others like it. And if he does, I hope he feels that in retrospect he may have been a bit one-sided on this one when the context didn't necessarily warrant it.

 

[Ghadente]

Am I the only person who thought the fight scenes were just utter balls? The quick cuts were worse than anythin Michael Bay ever came up with in Transformers and it was damn near impossible to keep track of where everyone was and what was goin on.

Other than the shit fight scenes it was an enjoyable movie.

probably. I had no problem at all following the fight scenes. Thought they were pretty great, by super hero action movie standards. The first Hunger Games is a movie that i recall being annoyed with how the fight scenes were shot.

also... Michael "ruin classic franchises" Bay is my least favorite director of all time, and would like to see him just STOP. I see not relation between how The Winter Soldier action scenes were shot and the junk he puts out there.

 

[Ukomba]

I find it funny you work so hard to stretch the movie back to the Bush administration. With all the domestic spying, drone strikes, and kill list, it seems to better fit a slightly more current administration. Even the director says it's meant to be direct slam on President Obama.

Did you read the article linked to, or just the title? Because the director said no such thing. He mentioned several themes, some of which were current, some of which stretched back to 70's spy thrillers. He mentioned 'zeitgeist', and you'd have to be mad to think that terrorist response started with Obama. That's not to say that the current political climate isn't relevant - the movie is trying to be contemporary, after all - but to think that it could be an analogy of Obama's response to terror, without being in any way about Bush's response to terror, is lunacy.

It's not 'hard' to stretch the movie back to Bush, it's hard not to.

If you're saying the director didn't word for word say it was a direct slam, you're right, exuse me for interpreting based on what he said, you know, like people saying it's a slam against bush are doing based on some perceived theme's in the movie. e_e

And ya in some ways you could call back to bush, but in a far more real and immediate way it's about obama. For example, obama has a record breaking prosecution of whistleblowers. Like how they tried to take out Fury when he got the secret information from the ship. The whole thing is using government agencies against political enemies, like obama and the irs. The whole helecarrier thing was that they were unmanned and targeting a kill list, a direct parallel with Obama's drone strikes. You can point to bush, but I hope you've warmed up before attempting that stretch.

 

[SixShooter]

Bob is really wrong here. The film IS good, let's be clear. What it's not is:

1) About GWB and the Iraq war. The film is EXPLICITLY about the Drone program, the kill list program, and the NSA data mining that feeds it. It's about the Obama administration, and the film makers even said as much.

Drones are a sore spot for Bob, since he's been a vocal supporter of them, and caught a lot of flak accordingly. However between this, and his butchering of the Robocop review (also about Drones), it's clearly starting to effect his craft.

I wish just once he'd stop and ask himself, if on THIS ONE ISSUE: "am I the wrong side?"


2) What this movie also isn't is that much different on the "doom/gloom" scale than the Nolan movies. Sure it's not the Dark Knight trilogy, but it's pretty close to being Superman in terms of tone. Bob trying to split hairs to avoid his previous criticisms is mental gymnastics worthy of a corporate lawyer.

-edited-

 

[SixShooter]

but to think that it could be an analogy of Obama's response to terror, without being in any way about Bush's response to terror, is lunacy.

While the global war on terror paradigm predates Obama, this was about the assassination program, which is unique to Obama, who went further in Bush in being the first president to openly order the assassination of a US citizen. Likewise the use of NSA gathered data to engage in "pattern strikes" (i.e. just predicting who is an enemy and killing them preemptively), is also unique to Obama's drone program.


-edit-

 

[SixShooter]

Edited some of the previous posts because after cooling down, I regretted implying bad faith on Bob's part. I think he's being honest, and he's one of the good guys as far as politics go, and an ally against the people that are REALLY messing this country up.

Let me just give another example as to why I feel so strongly that the George W Bush allegory theory doesn't work.


MAJOR SPOILER ALERT

*************
**************



****************



Ok. Well the film is quite clear that Hydra began infiltrating post WW2, i.e. when the U S finally became the global super power. Thus the corrupting effects of more and more power and empire were not a reaction in the film's narrative.

Under this frame btw, the blame is not solely on Obama either FWIW. Rather , the drones and secret kill list are just the latest manifestation of this trend.

 

[nightazday]

In fact the way Iron Man and Thor went I think the 2nd Avengers will be a lot darker than the first one.

 

[Brockyman]

Shouldn't that read "recent events where the government is passing laws and doing things against the average citizens and violating the constitution and rule of law for a radical agenda?"

Yeah, that sounds better. Cap would be proud of me for the truth there.

Yeah, you missed the part where that agenda was being paid for by the Koch brothers. Good on you for trying though.

Didn't miss it... just isn't true

 

[SargeSmash]

I'm sorry Bob didn't check off all the boxes to please his huge conservative audience in his 5 minute review of a comic book movie that has more in common with political thrillers from the 70's than modern day abuse of power.

It's certainly his right to do so, and it's my right to complain about it. Although they clearly tie it in to modern abuse of power as well. I don't see why my statement should be that controversial. There's lots of culpability to go around, but Bob only seemed interested in one side of it. Totally his prerogative! But it did annoy me, and if you're fair-minded, it should annoy you too.

And your appeal to the shortness of the review doesn't dismiss the point, he found enough time to plop up pics of Bush and Cheney, yet didn't have enough time to blip up the current President? And if it's more about '70s thrillers (which I don't deny!), then why throw Bush and Cheney in at all? I'm just not buying it.

I do, however, agree with his final assessment of the movie.

 

[Ldude893]

Spoiler

I watched it today, and I chortled hard when I saw the Pulp Fiction quote on Nick Fury's tombstone. Shame that I couldn't recognize either of the new Avengers superheroes in the end credits scene.

This is officially my second favorite Marvel Studios film after The Avengers. To think that a couple years ago, I had absolutely no interest or knowledge with most of the Marvel universe aside from the characters Spiderman and the Hulk, and now I like them even a bit more than the DC superheroes. Marvel did a magnificent job with these movies, and I seriously can't wait for The Avengers 2 to come out

 

[strumbore]

I'm really sick of all the mustache-twirling going on in these Marvel movies. None of these bad guys have any grounded visions for the future. It's CONTROL for the sake of CONTROL, and DOMINATION for the sake of DOMINATION, I just don't buy any of it. Hydra isn't even presented as a meritocracy, it just "is". We are given zero insight into how any of these ridiculous plots are intended to improve the world in their minds, or how they are even intended to *WORK*! Did someone get drunk in the drawing room one day and say, "I just wish there was a gun in the sky that would shoot everyone who disagreed with me, that would fix *EVERYTHING*!"?

Is that deep political satire for comic book movies? Because it sounds more like a plot from Dr. Evil or perhaps...a comic book.

For all the high-tech rocket engines attached to those gunships, this is by far the LEAST sophisticated end-game for an international, Top Secret Shadow Organization. Literally going building to building, blasting holes into walls from the sky? Again, world domination in 3 months??

"And so the lesson is, boys and girls, if you think diplomacy is a waste of time, putting a gun in the sky to go house-to-house shooting people isn't the answer."

For all the money these movies bring in and all the glittering fan-boy reviews, these movies are no more insightful than a Saturday morning cartoon show.

 

[CelestDaer]

Nice review and all that, but I suppose I should have seen the finger pointing at Bush/Cheney. Very disappointing, especially considering that Obama is even worse than Bush was with this particular subject.

Except... "Things happened in New York!" And Bush was president at the time. Not Obama.
Other than that, though, having seen Bob's non-spoilery review, I figured out the big twist about ten minutes into the film, and then, I called the second twist about two minutes before it happened. But I still enjoyed the hell out of the movie.
I also have to ask, thanks to the stingers... aren't Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver... Magneto's children?

 

[tangoprime]

Why bring up Bush? Obama has been in charge for 5 years (longer than the USA fought in WWII) and things have only gotten worse.

Kind of my thinking as well. Or if you're going to put up pictures, throw up an image of both Pres. Bush and Pres. Obama. As it is, it really betrays the reviewer's political leanings. (Which is totally okay, I get it, but it also feels completely unnecessary.)

I'm definitely excited to go see this, though, and I really hope it lives up to the review!

Especially since my entire group I saw the movie with last night all got the same "hey, this is exactly like Obama's drone use and PRISM." especially for the fact that:

Spoiler

one of the examples given by the big bad to convince an Indian SHIELD director is an eminent pakistani attack on India, and how this could be used to stop Pakistan. Y'know... the country that IRL has had over 3,000 drone assassinations since Obama took office, a large number of which are simply "signature strikes" which is exactly what SHIELD's Operation Insight does to an extreme. That's right, the entire premise of how HYDRA wants to cull the population of people who would be a problem is use of automated signature strikes by what are essentially giant floating drone guns

But, alas, we all know which way Bob votes.

 

[tangoprime]

Bob is really wrong here. The film IS good, let's be clear. What it's not is:

1) About GWB and the Iraq war. The film is EXPLICITLY about the Drone program, the kill list program, and the NSA data mining that feeds it. It's about the Obama administration, and the film makers even said as much.

Drones are a sore spot for Bob, since he's been a vocal supporter of them, and caught a lot of flak accordingly. However between this, and his butchering of the Robocop review (also about Drones), it's clearly starting to effect his craft.

I wish just once he'd stop and ask himself, if on THIS ONE ISSUE: "am I the wrong side?"


2) What this movie also isn't is that much different on the "doom/gloom" scale than the Nolan movies. Sure it's not the Dark Knight trilogy, but it's pretty close to being Superman in terms of tone. Bob trying to split hairs to avoid his previous criticisms is mental gymnastics worthy of a corporate lawyer.

-edited-

I'm very late to the party, this guy said it better, though my specific spoiler example was pretty telling.
Also, wasn't aware Bob was a vocal supporter of the drone program, wow. I'd love some references on that.

Anyway, the showing Bush and Cheney thing really rubbed me the wrong way. If anything, at least show both of them, anyone who knows anything about the drone program under Obama knows who this movie was referencing, and Bob still playing it as one sided as always was just insulting to everyone here.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

Nice review and all that, but I suppose I should have seen the finger pointing at Bush/Cheney. Very disappointing, especially considering that Obama is even worse than Bush was with this particular subject.

Except... "Things happened in New York!" And Bush was president at the time. Not Obama.
Other than that, though, having seen Bob's non-spoilery review, I figured out the big twist about ten minutes into the film, and then, I called the second twist about two minutes before it happened. But I still enjoyed the hell out of the movie.
I also have to ask, thanks to the stingers... aren't Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver... Magneto's children?

Yes, and I still cringe at the thought of what would have happened if the idiot Al Gore had been president at the time. Thank goodness he wasnt.

Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver are indeed Magneto's children. However, I think that 20th century fox owns even the rights to the word "mutant" and they wont be able to mention either. Fox owns the X-Men franchise rights now, and Sony owns the rights to Spiderman. It sucks, but Marvel was on the verge of going bankrupt at the time, and what saved them was selling the rights of those two franchises, if I am not mistaken.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

Bob is really wrong here. The film IS good, let's be clear. What it's not is:

1) About GWB and the Iraq war. The film is EXPLICITLY about the Drone program, the kill list program, and the NSA data mining that feeds it. It's about the Obama administration, and the film makers even said as much.

Drones are a sore spot for Bob, since he's been a vocal supporter of them, and caught a lot of flak accordingly. However between this, and his butchering of the Robocop review (also about Drones), it's clearly starting to effect his craft.

I wish just once he'd stop and ask himself, if on THIS ONE ISSUE: "am I the wrong side?"


2) What this movie also isn't is that much different on the "doom/gloom" scale than the Nolan movies. Sure it's not the Dark Knight trilogy, but it's pretty close to being Superman in terms of tone. Bob trying to split hairs to avoid his previous criticisms is mental gymnastics worthy of a corporate lawyer.

-edited-

I'm very late to the party, this guy said it better, though my specific spoiler example was pretty telling.
Also, wasn't aware Bob was a vocal supporter of the drone program, wow. I'd love some references on that.

Anyway, the showing Bush and Cheney thing really rubbed me the wrong way. If anything, at least show both of them, anyone who knows anything about the drone program under Obama knows who this movie was referencing, and Bob still playing it as one sided as always was just insulting to everyone here.

Both points here are well said. I would go even further, and say that I felt like the movie was much more conservative than people would want to admit, at least those that lean or completely squat on the left. Why, you say? There was a HUGE anti BIG GOVERNMENT feel to the whole movie. Big Brother, Big Government, etc. All of those things I just mentioned are what conservatives, like myself, are completely against.