If that's your argument I can respect that. The problem is that is not what most people are using as a complaint. They are basically complaining about a lack of camp, which is a completely subjective problem. I saw plenty of scenes where he was learning to fly where joy was expressed and then when the aliens came the joy went away, but people seem to think that superman has to be a happy go lucky boy scout or it doesn't work.The Dubya said:
Escape to the Movies: Man of Steel
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
They were attacking that city whether he was there or not. Even when he went off in another direction they continued to destroy the city so what would you have him do, let them? Honestly I think that climax with Zod completely speaks to his character. He could have easily done that at any time, but he didn't. Why? Because he was holding back. Because he didn't want to destroy the only other Kryptonian left. When Zod didn't give him another choice he did what he had to do, but he didn't had a look of anguish on his face doing it. That is most definitely Superman-esque.mattttherman3 said:
The thing with the large majority of Snyders films, is that they are adaptions. 300 was a near frame-by-frame perfect adoption of the comic, from what I've heard, and Watchmen was pretty damn near the source material as well, except for a couple of plot element tweaks to fit the story for the 21th century. Legends of the Guardians was awesome, but failed by not having a target audience (it was a kids movie, but far too dark and stylistic for that audience).Sovereignty said:
All in all, I think he's probably the best director for comic book adoptions out there. Man of Steel's shortcomings seem to come from Nolan & Goyer's end.
I think a lot of people are forgetting the other thing that is pointed out substantially in Clarks "coming out"; Pa Kent says explicitly that its not just about people accepting him as a powered creature, its accepting the factual refutation of their belief systems. He is the answer for "are we alone" that Pa believes humanity isn't ready for. However, when Zod arrives and very overtly proclaims "You Are Not Alone" along with presenting an existential threat to humanity, Clark no longer has to hide and thus that point is effectively "dropped". It's not for nothing that Clark goes to see a priest and they have a discussion of faith before he "comes out". Nor is it simple coincidence that Pa is killed by a proverbial "act of god".The Dubya said:
I think it is these elements that are really the other component to Snyder's signature. Like Suckerpunch, it's one part unique overload visuals, one part heavy metaphors and symbolism that are handled extremely poorly (having the stained glass Jesus in the background as Clark confesses is laughably ham fisted, but I got what he was going for).
As you should. Superman has been reinvented several times in the comics, and to top that Zack Snider himself has even said that this is a complete reboot, in the sense that they are changing the superman-lore to their vision. There is no Superman to "get", because this is a new Superman. Changed for the vision, just like the mandarin in IM3 (which Bob had no issue with).ThunderCavalier said:
It's a new vision - you take it or leave it. Regardless of some awkward parts of the pace/screenplay, I still loved it.
Yeah, I don't really get all the negativity people feel towards Man of Steel.HyperFreakNation said:
To me, it was a more interesting movie to watch than Iron Man 3; and while I think the screenplay was kind of flawed in places, and the movie lost a little bit of "soul" if you will, I would much rather have slightly less soul than have overbearing camp(Superman fights with or leads the baddies away from major population centers, does whatever is possible to save EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN PERSON, and so on).
I really liked this movie & I'd disagree with most of the negative point to this review. I found the story really made a lot of sense, if not spoon fed to the audience, & brought a believable dimension to the character.
I Just want to flag 1 of them. The destruction of krypton, which bob doesn't seem to understand, is clearly & unequivocally explained. But I can understand why a libertarian American may be deaf to 'mining can destroy the planet'.
we have marvel & superman 1-4,which I loved, to bring joy. but surely their is room for a little depth & seriousness.
O'well, you can't win'em all
P.S. I also liked The Dark Knight Rises & was not keen on Batman Begins, so feel free to ignore me.
I Just want to flag 1 of them. The destruction of krypton, which bob doesn't seem to understand, is clearly & unequivocally explained. But I can understand why a libertarian American may be deaf to 'mining can destroy the planet'.
we have marvel & superman 1-4,which I loved, to bring joy. but surely their is room for a little depth & seriousness.
O'well, you can't win'em all
P.S. I also liked The Dark Knight Rises & was not keen on Batman Begins, so feel free to ignore me.
There seems to be several plot holes and other issues that just took me out of it.
I could go on. Thinking about it at all just causes things to unravel.
Also, I kept expecting the Normandy to show up to fight those Reapers.
1. Why would Kriptonians adopt a policy that would purposefully damage their civilization? If they needed natural resources, abandoning colonies seems counter productive. Where else are they supposed to get new resources?
2. Suicidal culture didn't stop there, they mined their own planets core. That's so obviously self destructive it's like they wanted their planet destroyed. Especially when they clearly have the technology to so something like the Star Forge from Kotor. A race that gets super powers from the sun never discovers solar power...
3. This is the DC universe. That has connotations to it. If they were so advanced and wide spread, did they not meet the Oans or any of the other races?
4. More suicide. Johnathan Kent dies because of a dog and refusal to let Clark save him. Like they couldn't make up an excuse people would accept, or even just deny they saw what they did. People accept a small woman can lift a car to save their baby, a healthy teen boy running fast wouldn't be hard to accept. (Boomer will live)
5. Speaking of Johnathan Kent. A lot of the stuff he was telling Clark came off as really negative and as bad advice. He came off more like the parents in x-men just asking 'have you tried... not being a mutant?' than like Uncle Ben.
6. If Zod simply told Superman he wanted the codex to revive his race, and chose a different planet to settle on, wouldn't superman have just given it to him?
7. Zod finds a planet that would make his people super strong, fast, have improved senses, and other super powers and and instead chooses to alter the planet to get rid of all that? Why? Because they might be uncomfortable for a day when they start coming into their powers? This is the most spinless military leader ever.
8. I hope that codex has the genetic code for every plant and animal on Kripton too, because if you alter earths environment that much you aren't going to have any native plants or animals left. Congratulations, you are now the proud owner of a barren rock. At least you dodged that super powers bullet.
9. Zod uses his nursery ship to shoot down aircraft he could have destroyed faster and easier by hand. You'd think he'd want to protect the only remaining equipment to prolong his race.
10. No one sees a possible issue with opening a black hole in earths atmosphere? Apparently everyone was able to instantly calculate the potential of the alien energy release and know it would only effect the ship.
11. No damage. Zod and Superman look completely undamaged at the end of their epic fight. Aside from the final borken neck, it doesn't look like either of them took any damage. While the visuals are great, no damage makes it as exciting as watching two men hit each other with Nerf bats.
12. Smash cuts everywhere. The most jarring was when his ship is crash landing when he's a baby, and instantly smash cutting to the oil rig fire. I was wondering for a while if someone edited the movie wrong until they smash cut back to him as a kid.
13. Does Jor-el think Kal can reproduce asexually? Not sure how sending his son away is supposed to save his race. Ya he has the codex of his race in him, but he knows the planet he's sending him too doesn't have the technology to use it. He doesn't even seem to want him to use it, so what was the point in taking it?
14. Why is the codex a skull?
15. The vacuum of space isn't an issue, but Kriptonian cloud hurts him?
16. No consistency on where is his power coming from. The sun and air? But on the ship, kriptonian air weakens him.. but zod and the other have kriptonian air helmets on when they fight him and their still super strong on his level. So the sun gives them the strength... but the air gives him hearing, and sight powers? But not always. The gravity couldn't have been high on the ship since Lois could walk just fine.
2. Suicidal culture didn't stop there, they mined their own planets core. That's so obviously self destructive it's like they wanted their planet destroyed. Especially when they clearly have the technology to so something like the Star Forge from Kotor. A race that gets super powers from the sun never discovers solar power...
3. This is the DC universe. That has connotations to it. If they were so advanced and wide spread, did they not meet the Oans or any of the other races?
4. More suicide. Johnathan Kent dies because of a dog and refusal to let Clark save him. Like they couldn't make up an excuse people would accept, or even just deny they saw what they did. People accept a small woman can lift a car to save their baby, a healthy teen boy running fast wouldn't be hard to accept. (Boomer will live)
5. Speaking of Johnathan Kent. A lot of the stuff he was telling Clark came off as really negative and as bad advice. He came off more like the parents in x-men just asking 'have you tried... not being a mutant?' than like Uncle Ben.
6. If Zod simply told Superman he wanted the codex to revive his race, and chose a different planet to settle on, wouldn't superman have just given it to him?
7. Zod finds a planet that would make his people super strong, fast, have improved senses, and other super powers and and instead chooses to alter the planet to get rid of all that? Why? Because they might be uncomfortable for a day when they start coming into their powers? This is the most spinless military leader ever.
8. I hope that codex has the genetic code for every plant and animal on Kripton too, because if you alter earths environment that much you aren't going to have any native plants or animals left. Congratulations, you are now the proud owner of a barren rock. At least you dodged that super powers bullet.
9. Zod uses his nursery ship to shoot down aircraft he could have destroyed faster and easier by hand. You'd think he'd want to protect the only remaining equipment to prolong his race.
10. No one sees a possible issue with opening a black hole in earths atmosphere? Apparently everyone was able to instantly calculate the potential of the alien energy release and know it would only effect the ship.
11. No damage. Zod and Superman look completely undamaged at the end of their epic fight. Aside from the final borken neck, it doesn't look like either of them took any damage. While the visuals are great, no damage makes it as exciting as watching two men hit each other with Nerf bats.
12. Smash cuts everywhere. The most jarring was when his ship is crash landing when he's a baby, and instantly smash cutting to the oil rig fire. I was wondering for a while if someone edited the movie wrong until they smash cut back to him as a kid.
13. Does Jor-el think Kal can reproduce asexually? Not sure how sending his son away is supposed to save his race. Ya he has the codex of his race in him, but he knows the planet he's sending him too doesn't have the technology to use it. He doesn't even seem to want him to use it, so what was the point in taking it?
14. Why is the codex a skull?
15. The vacuum of space isn't an issue, but Kriptonian cloud hurts him?
16. No consistency on where is his power coming from. The sun and air? But on the ship, kriptonian air weakens him.. but zod and the other have kriptonian air helmets on when they fight him and their still super strong on his level. So the sun gives them the strength... but the air gives him hearing, and sight powers? But not always. The gravity couldn't have been high on the ship since Lois could walk just fine.
Also, I kept expecting the Normandy to show up to fight those Reapers.
It was "Jenny", not "Jimmy."Desert Punk said:
As someone whose major introduction into Superman mythos (much like Batman) came from the 90's animated series and having Lois Lane played by snark-master Dana Delany, Amy Adams' version PISSED me off for being a plot-device. I was equally annoyed by Costner's Pa Kent, until his "last" scene that, for me, made him kind of a badass.
As for levity, agreed it was really lacking, but I thought I could read a little bit of it in things like Superman's first flight or that odd "gee whiz" tone he takes towards the middle when he talks to the soldiers about Zod or the satellites - I swear he could pass for Captain America. Have him sound like that (and smile!) while paired with Batman and it could still work when/if Justice League happens.
And yes, this was absolutely "live-action Dragonball Z," to the point where if they stay away from the "realism" of Evolution and mesh the series together right it could be fantastic.
One thing I'm not sure of though that I feel should be a bigger problem than it is:
Did Superman actually blow up a ship full of fetuses?
One other thing - I think the Imax I saw (by accident actually) was a bit scaled down and I don't know if it intentionally jacks up the volume more than normal screenings, but all the same, my advice: if you enjoy keeping your dental filings and not having your intestines shaken, avoid Imax.
I'm going to ignore all the ad hominems. Also, I'm well aware of the tale of the two cities references, and I appreciated that you caught the republic for me. So, regarding the Democratic Party in the United States, I am well aware that they are functionally no different from the Republican Party. I'm well acquainted with PRISM, etc. I assure you, I am not a shill for the Democrats. However, their espoused viewpoints are quite different from their actions. The Dems sell themselves as a party of egalitarianism and pacifism. They are the inheritors of the tradition of the Civil Rights Movements, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, what little truth there is, if any, is buried beneath mountains of lies, but, that's how they want to be perceived. The populist veneer of the Obama Administration, for example, masks one of the most corrupt administrations in recent memory. People are frequently not what they say they are. I would think that would be obvious.
And this leads us directly to Bane. Bane who has promised equality for the downtrodden of Gotham is actually just interested in killing them all. They're 'useful idiots.' He cannot be controlled by the corrupt businessmen who think they can use him for their own ends. He is the Terror that follows Revolution. He is Robespierre and Franco and Stalin. The point there is clearly that when you break down the walls that protect all of us, theoretically to overthrow your oppressors, you invite much worse destruction on yourself. (Sounding pretty conservative)
As for the cellphone radar point, yes, he breaks it once he's done, but, he still does it. It's still justifiable to invade the privacy of the citizens of gotham, because batman knows better. And then, because he's good, he breaks it, just like governments always say they will. If that's not a love letter to the Patriot Act, I don't know what it is.
Regardless, perhaps the problem is that you're throwing around political labels without defining them. If the Democrats aren't liberal, then what are they? What is liberal? And how is Nolan's viewpoints mapped to them? And kindly remember that personal insults are evidence of weak arguments.
And this leads us directly to Bane. Bane who has promised equality for the downtrodden of Gotham is actually just interested in killing them all. They're 'useful idiots.' He cannot be controlled by the corrupt businessmen who think they can use him for their own ends. He is the Terror that follows Revolution. He is Robespierre and Franco and Stalin. The point there is clearly that when you break down the walls that protect all of us, theoretically to overthrow your oppressors, you invite much worse destruction on yourself. (Sounding pretty conservative)
As for the cellphone radar point, yes, he breaks it once he's done, but, he still does it. It's still justifiable to invade the privacy of the citizens of gotham, because batman knows better. And then, because he's good, he breaks it, just like governments always say they will. If that's not a love letter to the Patriot Act, I don't know what it is.
Regardless, perhaps the problem is that you're throwing around political labels without defining them. If the Democrats aren't liberal, then what are they? What is liberal? And how is Nolan's viewpoints mapped to them? And kindly remember that personal insults are evidence of weak arguments.
"The superman movie for people who don't like superman."
I have quite a few instances where moviebobs perception of a movie turns out to be complete opposite of my own opinion. Yet, I almost obsessively watch all of his reviews, and carry with me his words to pre-emptively tarnish films I might thoroughly enjoy. However, in this case, the quoted line told me all I need to know. I'm well enough versed in comic book history and storytelling to know that: 1. Who superman is. 2. Why he's fundamentally boring, and 3. Which steps are needed to make an unstoppable force meet an interesting object.
If what moviebob says is true, and I get to watch an attempt (any attempt) to reach point 3 which includes enough flashing colors and world-ending fist punches, I will confindently place myself in the ticket line.
This is all.
I have quite a few instances where moviebobs perception of a movie turns out to be complete opposite of my own opinion. Yet, I almost obsessively watch all of his reviews, and carry with me his words to pre-emptively tarnish films I might thoroughly enjoy. However, in this case, the quoted line told me all I need to know. I'm well enough versed in comic book history and storytelling to know that: 1. Who superman is. 2. Why he's fundamentally boring, and 3. Which steps are needed to make an unstoppable force meet an interesting object.
If what moviebob says is true, and I get to watch an attempt (any attempt) to reach point 3 which includes enough flashing colors and world-ending fist punches, I will confindently place myself in the ticket line.
This is all.
I agree, but it seems like no character in fiction can be moody EVER, despite having more than adequate justification for it without people screaming "EMO!!!" these days.ThunderCavalier said:
OT: Personally, the only problem I had was with the origin story. For one thing, everybody and his mother knows Superman's origin story by now, especially everybody who would go to watch the movie, so redoing it is pretty pointless, and even if it was really necessary they spent WAY too much time on it, 10, 15 minutes tops would have been plenty. For another, I liked the parts with Krypton and such, but the constant flashbacks being scattered throughout the movie was a pain. I would have preferred it much better if they had despensed with the flashback format and just told Clark's childhood to adulthood straight from beginning to end, THEN got to the rest of the movie. It would have flowed better that way and it would have been much easier to get invested in each part of the movie. I also despised Pa Kent's downright retarded sacrifice, even if the reason for it hadn't been rendered moot halfway through the movie anyway.
I think there were a few things that I liked most, one being bringing Superman down to a more realistic level overall. I have always HATED the campy versions of Superman, (or camp in general really) the ones that are the embodiments of Truth! Justice! AND THE AMERICAN WAY!!! because of how painfully obnoxious and up the a** with messages it always is, as well as how unidentifiable it is, and I also hate the tendency to shoehorn humor in there just for the sake of having it, not because it adds any value, and doing a terrible job of executing the humor anyway. If avoiding that means Superman becomes darker and edgier from now on so be it.
Another is the fact that they kept Kryptonite out of the movie and only spent maybe 5 minutes total with Superman being depowered, and for the most part they didn't turn Clark into a complete moron just to make the plot work. All are plot devices most Superman stories just can't seem to avoid doing that have always been incredibly lazy and cheap and it's nice to see them dodging this, at least for this ONE movie.
Last, and I think the best, they had Superman go up against other Kryptonians. One thing that has always been a problem in Superman stories is they either, as mentioned above, weaken Supes so that enemies that wouldn't stand a chance against him in a straight fight on their best day can knock him around like a rag doll, or they make Superman so incredibly powerful that it's hard to imagine ANYONE being a challenge to him and then forgetting to match him up against a similarly powered opponent. In either case it's hard to get invested in the fights, since we all know that Superman is going to win by the end, so the former insults the audience's intelligence and the latter makes the fact that Supes is going to win blatantly obvious, and thus boring. With Zod and his cronies Superman goes up against enemies that are on his level, as all superhero (not just Superman) stories should, and made a titanic battle between evenly matched forces, which is MUCH better at creating actual tension.
omg, I remember that ending scene. Yes, all of your points are completely valid; the score is amazing and this movie knows where to put its jokes. Sure, it's not bright, campy, and upbeat all the time, but it's not supposed to be. This is a movie about Supes discovering himself, and he does it in a way a normal person would. He broods, yes, but you can see moments of pure joy at many points of the film.HyperFreakNation said:
And yeah. That scene with the drone was priceless. Whoever didn't find that funny is pretty stonefaced imo.
My biggest problem was the tone the characters set. It was not only grim, but sometimes contrary to whatever message or idea it seemed they were supposed to convey.
"Son, you are free to choose your own destiny. Now go save the world for daddy because that's why he sent you here."
I wasn't a fan of the Metropolis fight (I found the whole thing pretty nonsensical) but sweet mother of God the showdown in Smallville was the most exciting thing I've seen in a movie that I can remember.
"Son, you are free to choose your own destiny. Now go save the world for daddy because that's why he sent you here."
I wasn't a fan of the Metropolis fight (I found the whole thing pretty nonsensical) but sweet mother of God the showdown in Smallville was the most exciting thing I've seen in a movie that I can remember.
One part that this movie those better than Superman II is Clark's reaction to the bully truck driver. Remember what Reeve did to the bully? He kicked his ass! not very noble or heroic. And what does Cavill do to the bully? Not gonna spoil it, but he certainly didn't give him a concussion.
But damn, people must be really jaded if they didn't get a sense of levity when Kal-El had a big smirk on his face the first time he learned to fly. Or if they didn't feel the warmness in him when he offered his hand to Lois while they were flying to meet Zod. Or if you didn't feel some sort of pity for him at the end when he tried to reach for Lois for comfort.
Really need to do some soul searching if those precious moments in life pass you by.
But damn, people must be really jaded if they didn't get a sense of levity when Kal-El had a big smirk on his face the first time he learned to fly. Or if they didn't feel the warmness in him when he offered his hand to Lois while they were flying to meet Zod. Or if you didn't feel some sort of pity for him at the end when he tried to reach for Lois for comfort.
Really need to do some soul searching if those precious moments in life pass you by.