mecegirl said:
Why would anyone need academic proof?
As a way to determine whether or not a persons stance is based solely on their opinion or if they actually have something to back it up. As for why I typed "credible academic level proof", I use that phrase as a way to avoid any possible future scenarios where, when I ask for evidence to back up what a person is saying, they don't just go find some old GeoCities web page that was made for fun, and then cite that as their "proof" on whatever their stance on a particular subject happens to be.
mecegirl said:
People are just speculating based on the movie's events.
My post that you are replying to isn't about the movie but about the actual religion and the culture of Northern Europe at the time, hence the reason why BabySinclair typed the following:
Cultures will often change the depiction of cultural figures to better match their ideals. Jesus became European because Europeans thought themselves superior to those of different skin tones. There are historical records in which historically significant people suddenly become whiter if they were a positive influence. Why wouldn't the Scandinavians have done the same with their gods?
So you see, while some people may be "speculating based on the movie's events", I had moved past simply discussing the comics and was then discussing the religion of the Norse people and their depiction of their Æsir.
mecegirl said:
But just for fun I actually have a physical copy of Myths of the Norsemen by H.A. Guerber next to me. Here is a link to a site with a free pdf.
http://manybooks.net/titles/guerberh2849728497-8.html
I clicked on the link and it doesn't provide the entire pdf, just some exert. How do I access the entire pdf?
mecegirl said:
First of all the Whitest part does not refer to Heimdall's skin tone. And why would it? Now I'm not saying that the "actual" Norse gods weren't white, but if having pale skin was all it took then why would only one of them be especially called out as the whitest?
I never said that "all it took" for a Æsir was for them to have white skin, what I was saying was that it seems that Heimdall was described as physically being the brightest and that
part of description would elude to bright skin(see:white skin). As your own source points out, another part of how he was bright was that he had golden teeth.
mecegirl said:
This should be at about page 78 on the pdf.
Heimdall was always depicted in resplendent white armour, and he was therefore called the bright god. He
was also known as the light, innocent, and graceful god, all of which names he fully deserved, for he was as
good as he was beautiful, and all the gods loved him. Connected on his mothers' side with the sea, he was
sometimes included with the Vanas; and as the ancient Northmen, especially the Icelanders, to whom the
surrounding sea appeared the most important element, fancied that all things had risen out of it, they attributed
to him an all-embracing knowledge and imagined him particularly wise.
"Of Æsir the brightest-- He well foresaw Like other Vanir."
Sæmund's Edda (Thorpe's tr.).
Heimdall was further distinguished by his golden teeth, which flashed when he smiled, and won for him the
surname of Gullintani (golden-toothed). He was also the proud possessor of a swift, golden-maned steed
called Gull-top, which bore him to and fro over the quivering rainbow bridge. This he crossed many times a
day, but particularly in the early morn, at which time, as herald of the day, he bore the name of Heimdellinger.
"Early up Bifröst Ran Ulfrun's son, The mighty hornblower Of Himinbiörg."
He is actually described as having White armor, golden teeth, and riding a horse with a golden mane. He is known as the Whitest because of his bright white armor. In the movie his armor is bright and shiny but it is gold instead of white. And I guess they figured giving him golden eyes was a more suitable physical attribute, because even giving a White actor golden teeth would look bad.
So going by your own source, does it say anywhere that Heimdall had skin much darker than the other Æsir or does it describe him physically looking much dark at all in comparison to his fellow Æsir? Explain to me the logic of why a a god that was heavily associated with light, brightness, white, and gold would for some unknown reason have noticeably darker skin than the other gods? Why would the Æsir associated with "light, innocen[ce], and grace" have skin darker than someone like...oh I don't know...perhaps Loki, the father of Hel,Jörmungandr, Fenrir and grandfather of Sköll and Hati Hróðvitnisson?
mecegirl said:
And of course if we were going by the actual myths Thor should be a ginger who shoots lightning from his beard when he's angry. He should also never be allowed on the Rainbow Bridge because his power would damage it. At around page 34 of the pdf.
As he was god of thunder, Thor alone was never allowed to pass over the wonderful bridge Bifröst, lest he
should set it aflame by the heat of his presence; and when he wished to join his fellow gods by the Urdar
fountain, under the shade of the sacred tree Yggdrasil, he was forced to make his way thither on foot, wading
through the rivers Kormt and Ormt, and the two streams Kerlaug, to the trysting place.
Thor, who was honoured as the highest god in Norway, came second in the trilogy of all the other countries,
and was called "old Thor," because he is supposed by some mythologists to have belonged to an older dynasty
of gods, and not on account of his actual age, for he was represented and described as a man in his prime, tall
and well formed, with muscular limbs and bristling red hair and beard, from which, in moments of anger, the
sparks flew in showers.
I actually would have no problem with that, escpecially the part where you would see lighting coming out of Thor's beard. Heck I wish they would have found a way to include the children of Loki in the movie, because they seem like they would make great antagonist for the Avengers to fight. I mean just think of it, instead of a flying robot snake/worm/dragon thing flying around NYC, they would be fighting a gargantuan sized wolf, a half dead women and a sea serpent that would give the leviathan a run for its title as the biggest sea monster! (Though I must admit that I am curious as to how they will go about having Thanos being the next big baddy).
mecegirl said:
And this is the biggest problem with your stance. This movie is not based off the actual Norse myths. This is a movie based of a Marvel comic book series that was loosely based on the Norse Myths. And it is not even set up in the same way as the Wonder Woman mythos of DC comics where the Greek God are supposed to be actual Gods. Nope, in the Marvel universe the Asgardians are inter-dimensional aliens who live on an asteroid that visit earth on occasion. What you should be asking for is not academic proof but comicbook canon.
As I said above, I had moved on in my debate to the discussion of the actual religion. I also already that I see no reason why I can't criticize marvel for their depiction of the Norse gods, all the while people like MovieBob feel free to criticize Frank Miller for his depiction of the Spartans in the movie 300.
mecegirl said:
And from what I can find whenever Heimdall is shown in the comics he looked like this.
So like the other Asgardians in the comics he looks little like his physical description in the myths.
Funny, because I just went on the Marvel website, and the image they provide is this....
So it seems that they have drawn him as having White Skin. You can even take a look for yourself if you don't believe me [http://marvel.com/universe/Heimdall].
mecegirl said:
And again, like most Asquardians in the comics was white, but big whoop. Its not like Heimdall has that major of a role in the comics or the movies.
Your missing the point, which was that MovieBob(and others who have taken the same stance as him) said that it was wrong for people to be opposed to Elba for playing a role of a white character, yet when the table was turned, he voiced very similar complaints about Johnny Depp playing the role of a Native American character that fans had voiced about the role of Heimdall. The whole point of tdylan's comment was to point out how hypocritical it was for MovieBob(and others who took the same stance) to react in such a way towards towards the choice of actors decided to play Tonto and Heimdall.
mecegirl said:
And personality wise Elba did a great job portraying an all seeing, all hearing, wise, guardian of the Rainbow Bridge. He also looks cooler.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Elba personally. I liked the guy in RocknRolla and as a person who was a fan of Spawn as a kid, I would like nothing more than for Al Simmons to be played by Elba. I mean, until I say RocknRolla, I was worried that the only guy that would be talented enough to be Al Simmons/Spawn would be Don Cheadle because while the guy is the most talents Black American actor I can think of, he doesn't physically fit the part. Now Elba Idris on the other hand? That guy is Black[footnote]Yes I realize that Mr. Idris isn't from America, but I think he can pull off a decent American accent.[/footnote](like the character Al Simmons), he seems like he is a respectable actor, and unlike Cheadle, Idris would have no problem physically pulling off the part. Idris could do for Spawn what Michael White struggled to do[footnote]No offense to the guy, I appreciate Mr. White for trying his best.[/footnote] [/Spawn fan wishes].
