Escapist Podcast: 089: Religion in BioShock, David Jaffe and Playing Nice

[ritterjcat]

I choose not to use ad block because I want to support the people who create content I like. It's the same reason I always buy music I like instead of copying it. When someone makes something I like, I want to give them money so they keep making more of it. In a way, it's ultimately my selfish desire to have good content that leads me to this conclusion.

 

[Almack]

see I would like to think that Susan chose too talk about the bioshock baptism guy simply to start a religious debate in the comments. Successful troll? maybe.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Nude volleyball was a big thing in the naturist community and therefore in popular culture in the 1950s through the 1970s. Its was a THING, so it became the comedic answer of choice that everyone in the 1950s and 1970s would know. It is what might be considered a lost meme. I'm actually rather shocked that Susan Arendt doesn't know why nude volleyball is a thing.

If you noticed, I did mention nudist colonies. But I felt that fell outside the purview of the question - a nudist colony isn't something anyone does clothed, ergo, anything done at a nudist colony would be an invalid answer.

Of course, if you want to argue that I'm overthinking a Family Feud question...well, there is that.

Ha! Take this, I'm using an ingenious system to block ads, and I'm flaunting it at you. Look at it, look at it now!!!
It's the best.

In other news, I think you guys didn't really discuss the main point (or at least the interesting proposition) in what Jaffe was saying, the idea of what size an audience would be needed to sustain a writer and the potential for good writing that would come from financial security. I feel that by spending more time talking about his silly salary figure and lack of editorial (which really where peripheral to the idea) and the arguments over it. You are just adding fuel to the flames?

I wonder, and have a question for you, at what point do you think that it is not productive to talk about the silly arguments that happen and instead discuss the issue? Is it better to ignore the unproductive arguments and bickering, or do you feel the need to report the vitriol?

Love the podcat, keep up the good work.

First, we're not reporting - this is a discussion, not a news show. Secondly, I very much wanted to bring up geek culture's apparent desire to just be angry at someone. I'm very frustrated with how gleefully people are willing to pick a fight, even if that fight completely ignores the main thrust of the original comment. I wasn't looking to discuss Jaffe's proposal, but rather the angry response to a single detail in it - ok, he overshot the salary by a lot, so what? But that's what people latched onto and ran with because...why? It's the why I wanted to explore. Where is this anger coming from? Does our culture feel more comfortable being negative rather than positive, or even neutral? Was it simply because it was a very emotional week? Is it that Twitter has evolved into the social media platform you use when you want to be pissed off about something? I don't know the answers to any of those questions, so I raised the matter for discussion.

 

[maxben]

Really appreciate what you said Susan about the knee jerk reaction to Christians. I'm protestant Christian; the kind of Christian that thinks Fox News is the most hilariously dumb thing on the face of the planet, believes in evolution, supports gay marriage, and is Pro-choice, but still Christian and a man of faith.

It's always really bothered me, particularly on this site which I otherwise love, how fast people are to paint religious people as idiots and mindless sheep who all belong to the "God hates gays" and "Believe or go to hell" type. Myself, and many many other Christians, utterly despise the kind of stereotypes the fringe element has made and always try be a counter example, but often in gaming communities it really feels like a losing battle. Thanks for making me feel a little better and not so much the odd one out.

Getting a little to sappy here so any-who great podcast as always, love having something to listen to during my Friday commute.

But its tough to say x is good when your scripture clearly argues x is evil. I mean, ESPECIALLY as a protestant christian where a huge aspect of protestantism is "scripture alone" so it becomes even harder to argue against scripture. How much scripture can you ignore before you can no longer identify as a protestant or even a christian?

You can take the other way out, which is what I actually do, and look at yourself as a cultural or secular christian/Jew/muslim/whatever. In that case, you consider others of your faith community much more as a nation/ethnicity/culture and less of a faith itself. A kind of "this is my background, this where I come from, and this is my family even if I don't agree with them on alot" kind of position. But then you wouldn't actually take articles of your faith all that serious anyhow (think christmas/easter christians).

I don't know, in many ways having a faith makes you seem crazy (if you hold too strongly to it) or hypocritical/dishonest (if you hold too weakly to it). And just so its clear I am not trying to turn you to the dark side or any such thing, I am merely pointing out why people seem to turn on those who claim to be a part of an organized religious. those who are spiritual, for example, kind of escape these issues altogether

 

[Rakschas]

To take religion seriously, to be devout, you have to constantly and without interruption take things seriously, that have no foothold whatsoever in the plane of physics and science. That notion can and ultimately will come into conflict with similar concepts, as introduced in video games.

I disagree with premise one here that I quoted. Seems to me that you are committing the fallacy of broad generalization, that is you assume all things are like one thing that shares a similar trait. Specifically you assume that just because a religious person takes on faith the words and stories in there religion, that they have to do so for all words and stories.

For example lets say someone believes in god. OK, they may have no definitive proof of that besides, "because religion says so", but they choose to take it on faith. And so they take that one thing seriously despite not having the logical backing to prove it.

But where your argument falls apart is when you say that because they choose to believe in that one thing, then they must believe in all things. See a religious person will (probably) not see the religious stories as fictitious, so to them there is a clear difference between that of their religious beliefs and that of fiction stories.

So to that person there is no cognitive dissonance between belief in fictional stories and belief.

Now you could attack the idea that religious beliefs are fictitious but that would be a different argument.

patterns of behaviour and thought, however insane, that are shared by the vast majority of your peers are impossible to be identified as insane by oneself.

 

[Eric the Orange]

snip

A. Your assuming that I am a religious person, and that is why I am defending religion. This is wrong, I am an atheist.

B. What your describing is known as the "band wagon fallacy", which states that just because something is believed by the majority does not make it true.

C. Your statement does not counteract my claim in any way.

 

[Formica Archonis]

... waaaait. I haven't heard this story before. Dude was OK with his onscreen self trespassing, murdering, kidnapping, but baptism - a clearly insincere one no less - was a bridge too far?

If he didn't like the religious themes, then fine. But if he was trying to say that he sincerely thinks that something his onscreen character does somehow changes the reality of what he is, then he is either profoundly broken* or he is lying.

( * Can't differentiate fiction and reality + pays money to be the one acting out violent fictional acts = profoundly broken. Actually, just the first one = profoundly broken, but the second one makes it worse.)

 

[Rakschas]

snip

A. Your assuming that I am a religious person, and that is why I am defending religion. This is wrong, I am an atheist.

B. What your describing is known as the "band wagon fallacy", which states that just because something is believed by the majority does not make it true.

C. THIS DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING. *MADLAUGHTER*.

A. No I dont assume that and at no point i say that i do. I dont because I dont need to.

B. It is not. The bandwagon fallacy is something similar that relates to peer pressure, a phenomenon that is included in the hypothesis, but that said hypothesis is not exclusive to.

C. It does.

And before i make you waste any more effort: We each have stated our claims and presented our arguments. I dont see something more fruitfull coming out of it, this being the internet and all.

 

[Eleima]

Still in the process of listening to the podcast, but just want to say this is one of the greatest podcasts you guys have put up (and I've been listening since day one).

On the whole baptism thing, I could only nod along as you guys discussed it. There's a lot to be said about the "silent majority", the majority which is misrepresented by the fringe extremists. I myself was brought up as a Catholic, and no way identify with the anti-gay, anti-birth control, etc extremists. Sometimes, I just want to scream "can't we all just get along?" Then I think of these guys:

[http://www.coexistfoundation.net/]

Your "Play Nice" tactic, Susan is pure gold. I wish more people would follow it. The world would definitely be a better place if more people took the time and effort to do that "tiny thing" that will make someone's day/week/hour/whatever.
And Justin is 100% right about Steam. The holiday season and the summer sale are just insane times, we're just gifting games left and right, it's so great, awesome warm and fuzzy feeling.
Agreed, Susan, we're all spread out, I have virtually NO true geek/gamer in my immediate "RL" circle, and it can sometimes feel very lonely. Thank goodness for places like the Escapist!

And yes, driving/flying can really, really, really suck. They need to invent teleportation ASAP. Seriously.

Finally, I hadn't renewed my Pub Club membership because I wasn't using the "extra features" anymore (the Pub Club forum, the slot on the TF2 server, etc), but after listening to this podcast, you reminded me why I subscribed in the first place, went back and renewed it. You guys need to stay on the map, and that's just my small contribution. Stay awesome, podcat people!

 

[Zarku]

I admit, I use ad-block. I hate ads, it's that simple. What I didn't know, was that it hurts the sites I block ads on. Thanks to you informing me, I have decided to (and just did) sign up for the Pub Club. I want to support my favorite gaming site. I don't say this to get any "yay me" replies. I just want you guys to know that what you say matters. This goes with the theme of being nice, and talking about things and meeting people half way. Thank you for giving me knowledge I didn't have before, and I'm glad I can repay you in some way.

 

[SirDarksun]

I can't believe my first post in this forum is about adblock. Still, it is.
For me the many reason to use Adblock is because of the adds shown. Those are mostly for the American or British viewers, which I'm not part of.
I can live with watching adds for my own country, but it is really hard to not to get annoyed after watching the same add for a burger restaurant which does not even exist in your country 20 times.
That said, I think you are totally right. I like your site and therefore I should endure the adds at least on this site. So now your white listed.

So please keep on with the great work your doing.

PS: That problem (with US adds) is only happening with videos, the adds on the top a customized, but I didn?t realize that until after white listing.

 

[thunderbuck]

To start off with, after listening to what you said on the subject, I uninstalled Adblock.

On the subject of refunds I don't think i could get a refund for an unbroken product of any king here in the UK. That they did that for him is very cool, but i fear may set a president? Hell if he wants to deny himself the opportunity to play this cool game who are we to tell him he can't?

Anyway, good podcast guys you help lighten my week.

 

[btenkink]

Other than the Boston bombing, we are approaching Finals. Online conversations always get more toxic when the stress is on for spring semester.

I guarantee the internet will get more positive when summer break begins.

 

[Windcaler]

I was born and raised as Catholic and I still am, sort of. I actually disagree with a lot of what the vatican says but I follow the catholic philosophy of helping others and building a strong community. The baptism thing I thought was odd, I played through that part and didnt really blink an eye except through Bookers response which seemed childish to me. However I think what it comes down to for the guy is symbolism. I dont know what denomination of christianity he was so its impossible to talk about symbolism from his perspective. However from the catholic perspective baptism is about washing away Original sin which all people are born with and the sins you've commited up to that point in your life. In a few ways it's a step toward becoming a better human being. That said, its easy for people to look at such a thing and miss the symbolism or misinterpret it when they dont know the context behind it. The whole thing reminds me of that Knight-Paladin in Dawngaurd who says "Its symbolic. I dont expect you to understand." when he talks about the water carrying ceremony

If I interpreted Bookers reaction another way, with symbolic context in mind and assuming Booker knew that context, I might interpret it as him not caring about his sins being forgiven. It could also be interpreted as commiting to sin. I personally didnt interpret it that way but Im just saying thats how I think it could be interpreted

That all said, the outcry is pretty rediculous and it usually is when it comes to the majority of gamers and various religions. A lot of the anti-theist rhetoric has become so toxic that its forming a rift between some of the gaming subculture.

 

[Panorama]

I'm a little late catching up on the podcat however, if your goal is to make awesome content. You do it extremely well!! Thank you.

 

[McKitten]

On the subject of refunds I don't think i could get a refund for an unbroken product of any king here in the UK.

You can. See here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

TLDR version: EU law guarantees you the right to cancel any online purchase within 7 days of arrival of the goods purchased, with no better reason required than "i changed my mind".
That this is guaranteed by law also means that any eula or other conditions the seller puts on the goods can't change squat about it. Of course, you may not have heard about it because sellers are hardly motivated to inform you about it.

 

[Henrik Moeller]

The reason I use add-block on here is specifically because the escapist and extra credits have such intrusive adds.
Use non-intrusive adds and you won't see people blocking you.
I catch up on videos once a week and having to watch the same unskippable add a million times is obnoxious.

 

[thunderbuck]

On the subject of refunds I don't think i could get a refund for an unbroken product of any king here in the UK.

You can. See here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

TLDR version: EU law guarantees you the right to cancel any online purchase within 7 days of arrival of the goods purchased, with no better reason required than "i changed my mind".
That this is guaranteed by law also means that any eula or other conditions the seller puts on the goods can't change squat about it. Of course, you may not have heard about it because sellers are hardly motivated to inform you about it.

Huh... Fair enough.

 

[teebeeohh]

there has never been genocide committed by a large group of organized gay or transgender people.
whenever people talk about how great their faith is all the terrible things done in service of their belief pops into my head. That also includes all the oppression of science and reason for hundreds of years.

 

[Bryan Hinson]

I may not block the adds, but i will load all the videos i want to watch on separate tabs so the adds all play at the same time. This way i can pause the videos and watch the video when i want to, ignore the adds, and you still get money from the adds. Starcraft 2 actually got me to do this because i couldn't take any more Wilhelm Screams.