Escapist Podcast: Bonus: Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 3

[ARCTIC_EAGLE]

If this was BW's plan the entire time props to them, I'll go re-buy all of their games and DLC just to say thanks for being so creative. Great podcast, looking forward to the other podcast. This was the best of the 3 and its ending was good...unlike Me3's

 

[Pontifex]

Some comments

Part of the issue was that they retconned you in to the corner by removing stuff like the Thranix cannons (beam weapons) and the armour etc so that you didn't have as much of a chance, despite them not really meaning that anyone was going to one shot a reaper.

Thanix weapons were present, they're just not effective at long range as per the Codex. They do more damage against the Reapers, but are still far from instant kill weapons. The missiles you were defending at the end were a variation on Thanix design.

 

[DustyDrB]

I really do think they can do smaller, more personal stories well. I've always wanted to be a Turian trying to prove his worth in the military, or a Quarian on his or her pilgrimage.

How do they top a galactic struggle against an ancient sentient race of machines is irrelevant. They don't need to. Just tell a good story and I'll be glad to play a part in it. Humble tales are often fantastic.

 

[Ramith]

Firstly, thanks to Susan for changing my question up, you already gave me a good answer in your last bonus podcast, and ya hit a point I was curious on.

We see eye to eye on the DLC. If the indoctrination was planned, bloody awesome, especially if it?s free DLC.

Paid DLC... still brilliant idea, but damn scummy.

Pretty good podcast, props to Justin for disagreeing with the team. Arguments make the podcast more interesting.

No fun to listen to people just agreeing with eachother.

 

[BlindWorg]

Dont mind me, derailing the topic slightly.

What was wrong with either of Bioshocks endings?

 

[Hoplon]

Some comments

Part of the issue was that they retconned you in to the corner by removing stuff like the Thranix cannons (beam weapons) and the armour etc so that you didn't have as much of a chance, despite them not really meaning that anyone was going to one shot a reaper.

Thanix weapons were present, they're just not effective at long range as per the Codex. They do more damage against the Reapers, but are still far from instant kill weapons. The missiles you were defending at the end were a variation on Thanix design.

Codex says absolutely nothing about the range of the cannons. Missiles using the same tech seems hilariously out of step with the description of them being the result of an effect of very large EZ cores, even if scaled down for the Thanix version.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One problem I have with all of this talk of different endings is exactly what this conversation devolved into... I'm not done yet, but just wanted to comment on what started to happen around 35 or so minutes in.

*** MASSIVE SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY ***
(But then, the whole podcast is spoilers anyway, so you knew that)

At first the talk was about how they wanted to see some things that more clearly showed the impact of having the various forces in your fleet at the end. But then they start talking about the idea that there should be an ending where if you can get ENOUGH war assets you can actually beat the Reapers! This idea changes a hugely fundamental aspect of the entire game. Multiple times it's stated in the game that you can't defeat them conventionally (Despite what Justin said, I believe they mentioned it at least 2 times just in the last 2 hours of the game). During the final trip to the Citadel, you can see that EVERY point in the galaxy has a Reaper icon in it because they've now invaded every major system.

The whole point of the story that Bioware wanted to tell was that the Reapers were not able to be defeated by conventional means, no matter how strong your forces were. To demand that this be changed is changing the basic fabric of the story that they're telling. I mean, why stop there? Why do I have to choose between who to save on Virmire? I mean, if I believe that MY Shepard could've saved both, that apparently trumps the story that Bioware wants to tell. Or why couldn't I have saved Saren and gotten him on my side? Or convinced the Illusive Man to abandon his quest to control the Reapers. I mean, if MY Shepard could talk down Biotic terrorists, get Saren to shoot himself, etc...wouldn't he be able to do that?

This line of thinking inevitably makes it so that Bioware really has NO control over the story that they want to tell. The idea of "This is what MY Shepard would do..." has trumped all. It's one thing to point out a bit of a plot hole (how did Joker get to the relay?) or say that you wanted to see the effect of the war assets more, but to suddenly say that Bioware should be compromising their entire idea of this story so that you can beat it with just war assets seems arrogant to me.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Some comments

Part of the issue was that they retconned you in to the corner by removing stuff like the Thranix cannons (beam weapons) and the armour etc so that you didn't have as much of a chance, despite them not really meaning that anyone was going to one shot a reaper.

Thanix weapons were present, they're just not effective at long range as per the Codex. They do more damage against the Reapers, but are still far from instant kill weapons. The missiles you were defending at the end were a variation on Thanix design.

Codex says absolutely nothing about the range of the cannons. Missiles using the same tech seems hilariously out of step with the description of them being the result of an effect of very large EZ cores, even if scaled down for the Thanix version.

Also, I believe that they said that the Quarian Liveships were equipped with Thanix Cannons.

 

[BlindWorg]

Naw, the liveships were just upgraded to have enough firepower comparable to a dreadnought.

A big snail dreadnought made out of tissuepaper apparently. The flotilla quarians are not known for their high tech, its that they can make good and usable tech out of crappy materials.

''Please Shepard, im a quarian. Give me some scrap metal, wiring and a lump of eezo and ill have it make precision jumps for you.''

 

[II2]

Escapist Podcasters:

No love for Jack? Sure, Miranda and Jacob and Ashley and Kaiden are fairly one dimensional plus exposition, but I thought Jack was really an interesting case of a character who grows signicantly between ME2 and ME3, psychologically.

She was a squad buddy through all of ME2 where I could take her and I loved the redesign for ME3, though I missed being able to have her on the crew. I can understand though from the point of view that the pure superbiotic squad mate role is fulfilled by Liara.

Did you like Jack, Susan? Did you think she was a well written character?

 

[Thammuz]

At first the talk was about how they wanted to see some things that more clearly showed the impact of having the various forces in your fleet at the end. But then they start talking about the idea that there should be an ending where if you can get ENOUGH war assets you can actually beat the Reapers! This idea changes a hugely fundamental aspect of the entire game. Multiple times it's stated in the game that you can't defeat them conventionally (Despite what Justin said, I believe they mentioned it at least 2 times just in the last 2 hours of the game). During the final trip to the Citadel, you can see that EVERY point in the galaxy has a Reaper icon in it because they've now invaded every major system.

Yeah, but that's precisely what using the crucible is supposed to be, an unconventional way to beat the reapers.

The fact is that it is NOT a way to beat the reapers but a failsafe put in place by the reapers makes no sense, in light of the whole "we don't know what it does" debacle, which, as any engineer worth his name knows, is impossible when you're building something. Even moreso when you're actually completing the design as you go along.

Also, it might be just me but a galaxy wide alliance is not exactly what you'd call "conventional" in the Mass Effect universe, you could do many unconventional things by using all that different tech at once.

 

[Tanakh]

Well, I was on the fence about hearing you guys but after this? Gained another loyal podcaster.

Can't agree with what Susan Arendt says for my life, but at least it adds spice to the show, still think the gameplay is generic cover based third person shooter with a generic action summer bluckbuster story, well done for the most part, but can't get myself to play it over a good ol'fashione DotA 2 PvP match.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Escapist Podcasters:

No love for Jack? Sure, Miranda and Jacob and Ashley and Kaiden are fairly one dimensional plus exposition, but I thought Jack was really an interesting case of a character who grows signicantly between ME2 and ME3, psychologically.

She was a squad buddy through all of ME2 where I could take her and I loved the redesign for ME3, though I missed being able to have her on the crew. I can understand though from the point of view that the pure superbiotic squad mate role is fulfilled by Liara.

Did you like Jack, Susan? Did you think she was a well written character?

I do, actually, I enjoy the character...if not her costuming, which is at least better in ME3. I liked how she grew as a person, channeling her negative energy into a fierce "mama bear" role.

Well, I was on the fence about hearing you guys but after this? Gained another loyal podcaster.

Can't agree with what Susan Arendt says for my life, but at least it adds spice to the show, still think the gameplay is generic cover based third person shooter with a generic action summer bluckbuster story, well done for the most part, but can't get myself to play it over a good ol'fashione DotA 2 PvP match.

Anything in particular you don't agree with? Or just that ME3 is a good game?

 

[Tanakh]

Anything in particular you don't agree with? Or just that ME3 is a good game?

It's just we have too diferent tastes in games, and look different stuff there, almost diametricaly opposed.

In SW:ToR for example i leveled almost just in warzones doing only the class quests because after level 10 the voice and minor choices didn't made me forget i was grinding to level in MMO less polished than WoW or even Rift; i have yet to hear your SW podcast but will assume that is a way of playing not very appealing to you (with good reasons, I am probably seeing the weakest suit of SW).

And ME3 is a good game, generic doesn't mean bad, I also think The Fifth Element is a generic action Sci-Fi movie, and it is good; generic is kind of forgettable for me though and I use it for this game because even if well done I can't find a single innovation in it (and no, doing bad endings is not an innovation, videogames have been doing that since the beginning of times). To ME credit i must say that after losing my saves now i plan to play ME 1 and 2 because it is good enough to make me care about having a relationship developed with my crew, will probably happen when i am trapped on a cell with only a pc and those games though or when ME4 launches and it's the second coming of Christ.

To resume, you are just the kind of person that i like, but our tastes on videogames are so different i can't relate to even though i understand them, just as you probably can understand why i would say "SC II world finals are like watching a dance by Pina Bausch" even though you might think it's silly.

Edit: Pardon my english, non native and ortography and i aren't on speaking therms in any language anyway.

 

[Oro44]

I'm listening to the podcast now, so I'm commenting as I go. I was massively (see what I did there?)disappointed with the ending. I've commented about, sure, but I agree that some of the outcry is pretty out there. However, the sheer scale of the rage does serve a purpose. It forces Bioware to take notice. And if the fans are upset, you lose business.

The outrage is, in fact, a unique occurrence, but its also a unique situation. Mass Effect is an interactive experience in which you guide a story of your own making. And as such there is much more emotional investment, especially after 100 hours of play. You just don't get that with movies or books. (Though I can imagine something similar happening if this happened with Harry Potter).

Having said this, I do believe the ending should be change / expanded upon. Not from an artistic standpoint, but from a business standpoint. The ending has alienated the base, and that's losing money. Regardless of whether you think it's art, it's a product for a large market and should be treated as such.

(As I progress through the podcast, I see some of these points are being made.)

 

[Rariow]

What they could do with the entire "Continuing Mass Effect" thing, I think they could do another cycle. Say the Keeper cycle, when the Reapers were just starting out, and the galaxy still has an OK chance to actually overpower them. Being such a long time ago, you have plenty of space for choice and new lore-building, and it's not ultimately going to change the original ME trilogy. That'd have the problem of having you play as other (*GASP* NON HUMANOID?!) races, and balancing that to a familiar Soldier/Adept/Engineer system, but I think it has a lot of potential.

Or they could just re-vamp the universe and go via different possible alternatives, having a different story with different characters and maybe races, but you still being the guy/gal who is out to stop the Reapers. Except maybe here... I dunno the Genophage was never released and the Krogans have ended up conquering the galaxy, and you play as Comurdnot Wrepard.

 

[Limos]

You said there are 16-17 endings if you iterate through them.

INCORRECT

There are exactly 6 endings.

Destroy BAD - Everything is destroyed (based only on war assets)
Destroy Neutral - Reapers are destroyed (based only on war assets)
Destroy Good - Reapers are destroyed, Shepard wakes up (based only on war assets)

Control Neutral - Reapers are controlled
Control Good - Exactly the same, shot for shot

Synergy - Green version of the good endings from Control and Destroy.

All of these endings are based only on war assets.

 

[II2]

Escapist Podcasters:

No love for Jack? Sure, Miranda and Jacob and Ashley and Kaiden are fairly one dimensional plus exposition, but I thought Jack was really an interesting case of a character who grows signicantly between ME2 and ME3, psychologically.

She was a squad buddy through all of ME2 where I could take her and I loved the redesign for ME3, though I missed being able to have her on the crew. I can understand though from the point of view that the pure superbiotic squad mate role is fulfilled by Liara.

Did you like Jack, Susan? Did you think she was a well written character?

I do, actually, I enjoy the character...if not her costuming, which is at least better in ME3. I liked how she grew as a person, channeling her negative energy into a fierce "mama bear" role.

Thanks for the reply, I like your contributions to the podcast discussions and wanted your angle on Jack.

I'd speculate that, conceptually speaking, her character design in the ME2 one existed partly in order to showcase her tattoos and emphasis the "rawness" of her character rather than making her as deliberately sexual icon like Miranda. It runs into the "exposed midrift" fantasy female armour issue though, considering the variety of worlds you traverse where exposed skin could be extremely uncomfortable or downright hazardous.


----


To weigh in on the ending discussion, I think one low overhead solution that might provide players with some closure without having to drastically alter the existing production would be to introduce procedurally generated if-then-or "future history" codex entries: a multi-part image with voiceover slideshow narrated by the same voice who does the primary codex entries.

It might not be optimal for the formatting of ME, but it works quite well for decision rich RPGs... Fallout 1 2 and New Vegas used this technique effectively with pictures of relevant events accompanied by Ron Pearlman narrating what happened to the people in the aftermath based off the way you dealt with them during the game.

There's my $0.02 on a practical ending 'fix'.

 

[irishda]

I'm curious if caring about a fictional character is a psychosis of some kind. There's "I like this character" and there's "if this character dies I'm going to cry for days."