Escapists talking past each other

[Indignator]

I am fairly new to the Escapist so I have been looking over past articles, videos, etc. to get a feel for the site and the people on it. What struck me was this comic strip, or more importantly the short writeup below:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9123-Critical-Miss-Space-Marine

The writeup takes aim at game reviewers and pundits who arbitrarily hate on the following game design features:

-Monochromatic color scheme
-Quick Time Events
-Regenerating health
-Cover based systems

Does anyone know of a fairly prominent member of the Escapist who regularly derides all of those things?

Also I came across MovieBob's Game Overthinker series and watched several episodes. It quickly became obvious that he is a staunch defender of the Wii, motion control and JRPGs. Again does anyone know of a fairly prominent member of the Escapist who regularly derides all of those things.

My point is that it seems that there is absolutely no serious debate on the Escapist or in gaming culture in general. Sure there are forums galore about gaming, but a lot of the talk degenerates into drivel and flame wars of varying intensity, while the worthwhile discussions are lost in the crowd.

So my question is, why are the professional opinion makers like Yahtzee, MovieBob and others only speaking past each other? Why is there no video, article or a podcast where Yahtzee and MovieBob discuss the merits and shortcomings of the Wii and JRPGs? Or maybe there are such places and I'm just not aware of them?

 

[kaioshade]

any discussion about JRPG will quickly devolve into "LOL ANIMU CRAP"

I adore JRPGs, but will very rarely discuss them with people. it seems futile for that very reason i just mentioned.

 

[Distorted Stu]

Each to their own opinion i guess. There are sections in the past where Yahtzee, Moviebob and others in the gamign industry have gathered together and talked about the future of games. You've just missed out.

But the thing with the Escapist is that nearly all the users, eidtors and directors each have their own views on games and express them in their own way. We all know that, thats why in my opinion this website is great because of the lack of flaming and internet tantrums.. although the occational troll does roll in from time to time.

 

[kane.malakos]

Because it's our job to argue about it on the forums.
Their job is to present their opinion on media, not call out other people on their opinions. All of their shows would just become arguing with the others on the site. Plus, they have had discussions and disagreements about gaming before, in Extra Consideration.

 

[KeyMaster45]

My point is that it seems that there is absolutely no serious debate on the Escapist or in gaming culture in general. Sure there are forums galore about gaming, but a lot of the talk degenerates into drivel and flame wars of varying intensity, while the worthwhile discussions are lost in the crowd.

Welcome to The Internet, where there has never been and never shall be a meaningful discussion taking place. Everyone who joins The Internet is given one soapbox to stand upon and shout their grievances to the world. (Note: The internet is not responsible if said grievances are shouted and nobody pays attention to them, or if they result in filling someone with rage)

Thank you for choosing The internet. We know you have many choices in where you shout angrily to the sky and appreciate your patronage. A troll will be with you shortly to invalidate and insult everything you say.

 

[Savagezion]

Well, they used to do an article called "Extra Consideration" where Moviebob, Yahtzee, James Portnow, and sometime Jim Sterling would reflect on various things in the game industry. Although, the article mostly brought up perspectives rather than a conclusive view on something. Here is a link to that. For all the articles just search "Extra Consideration"

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extraconsideration/8639-Extra-Consideration-Console-Gaming

EDIT: As far as the forums go, all I can offer is be picky about which threads you go in and which ones are worth posting in. You can get into some good discussion here but it takes some effort and a bit of luck at times.

 

[oplinger]

So my question is, why are the professional opinion makers like Yahtzee, MovieBob and others only speaking past each other? Why is there no video, article or a podcast where Yahtzee and MovieBob discuss the merits and shortcomings of the Wii and JRPGs? Or maybe there are such places and I'm just not aware of them?

Extra Consideration did just that. But most of them ended up just agreeing with each other. So it wasn't all that interesting.

The escapist seems to breed a certain mindset like that. We're all mostly "I see your point" rather than "you're a dumb ass "

It's that kind of maturity that kinda makes the escapist great.

However, it does sort of squash out the fun of debates. Like with Extra Consideration...agreeing isn't interesting, or fun to watch/read.

 

[Indignator]

So my question is, why are the professional opinion makers like Yahtzee, MovieBob and others only speaking past each other? Why is there no video, article or a podcast where Yahtzee and MovieBob discuss the merits and shortcomings of the Wii and JRPGs? Or maybe there are such places and I'm just not aware of them?

Extra Consideration did just that. But most of them ended up just agreeing with each other. So it wasn't all that interesting.

The escapist seems to breed a certain mindset like that. We're all mostly "I see your point" rather than "you're a dumb ass "

It's that kind of maturity that kinda makes the escapist great.

However, it does sort of squash out the fun of debates. Like with Extra Consideration...agreeing isn't interesting, or fun to watch/read.

Thank you for pointing me to Extra Consideration, I'll go give it a look. Too bad it only lasted so short (I guess it all fell apart after James left).

I disagree that the only two options are, "I see your point" and, "you're a dumb ass". You can be thoughtful and civil while disagreeing with someone. Take for instance Roger Ebert's infamous piece on video game art. He wasn't just waving his arms around and tilting at windmills - he presented an argument made by the other side and then presented his counter-arguments.

Disagreeing with someone is not the same as attacking them. It is done in other sections of the internet all the time - someone writes an article and then someone writes a response. Disagreement is the heart of debate and the search for truth. It is difficult to maintain a civil tone which is why I don't blame forums (either here or elsewhere) for their low standards. However I DO expect the opinion makers to engage each other knowing that debate is nothing personal, both when their opinions are challenged and when they challenge the opinions of others.

I think that the gamer culture is so vitriolic (see for example the response to the Arkham City) that the prominent members of the community are afraid of calling out another prominent member by name. They see themselves as above the fray and to actually engage someone directly would be tantamount to engaging in flaming.

 

[Giest4life]

I think it's professional courtesy that Yahtzee or Movie Bob or the late James Paltrow do not take shots at each other. It is also worth remembering that Yahtzee is a "game critic" in a very literal sense of the word. His is not the duty to praise a game but to find faults in it, even if means having to nitpick through a game.

 

[oplinger]

Thank you for pointing me to Extra Consideration, I'll go give it a look. Too bad it only lasted so short (I guess it all fell apart after James left).

I disagree that the only two options are, "I see your point" and, "you're a dumb ass". You can be thoughtful and civil while disagreeing with someone. Take for instance Roger Ebert's infamous piece on video game art. He wasn't just waving his arms around and tilting at windmills - he presented an argument made by the other side and then presented his counter-arguments.

Disagreeing with someone is not the same as attacking them. It is done in other sections of the internet all the time - someone writes an article and then someone writes a response. Disagreement is the heart of debate and the search for truth. It is difficult to maintain a civil tone which is why I don't blame forums (either here or elsewhere) for their low standards. However I DO expect the opinion makers to engage each other knowing that debate is nothing personal, both when their opinions are challenged and when they challenge the opinions of others.

I think that the gamer culture is so vitriolic (see for example the response to the Arkham City) that the prominent members of the community are afraid of calling out another prominent member by name. They see themselves as above the fray and to actually engage someone directly would be tantamount to engaging in flaming.

No, it's not the same as attacking them, but that's really the only two options you get in a debate on the internet. You're either agreeing, be it halfway or full on, or the other guy is an idiot. It's not really common for someone to disagree, and the argument stagnate to disagreement. Concessions are always made, or the conversation ends because one party is infuriated and doesn't want to get banned.

Also as for opinion makers to engage each other, if Yahtzee made a video, and disagreed with someone by name, he'd be calling them out. Which is against standards of professionalism. Which is why they don't do it. They may even be contractually obligated not to. That's kinda why Extra Consideration came to be I'd like to think.

Maybe we should ask the escapist to do something similar. Even if it's not a debate, it'd be good to hear what different content creators think on certain issues in the industry/current events. That way we'd side-step the "everyone always agrees" road block..

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

A lot of people here echo Yahtzee, as much as they don't want to admit it. Those who react with the most hostility to this claim are usually the worst offenders.

 

[Indignator]

No, it's not the same as attacking them, but that's really the only two options you get in a debate on the internet. You're either agreeing, be it halfway or full on, or the other guy is an idiot. It's not really common for someone to disagree, and the argument stagnate to disagreement. Concessions are always made, or the conversation ends because one party is infuriated and doesn't want to get banned.

You're talking about debate by "mere mortals" in the forums and the comments, but that's a different discussion.

Also as for opinion makers to engage each other, if Yahtzee made a video, and disagreed with someone by name, he'd be calling them out. Which is against standards of professionalism. Which is why they don't do it. They may even be contractually obligated not to. That's kinda why Extra Consideration came to be I'd like to think.

I think it's professional courtesy that Yahtzee or Movie Bob or the late James Paltrow do not take shots at each other. It is also worth remembering that Yahtzee is a "game critic" in a very literal sense of the word. His is not the duty to praise a game but to find faults in it, even if means having to nitpick through a game.

Then the contracts and standards of professionalism need to change. But honestly, I don't know where this standard came from. Again, in other areas of the internet opinion makers constantly respond to each other. Again, disagreement is the heart of debate and the search for truth. I think we should banish the notion that direct counter-arguments are "unprofessional" or equivalent to "taking shots at each other." If the pundits can't respond to specific arguments made by others they must resort to strawmen and vague generalizations. That does not help anyone.

Maybe we should ask the escapist to do something similar. Even if it's not a debate, it'd be good to hear what different content creators think on certain issues in the industry/current events. That way we'd side-step the "everyone always agrees" road block..

Good idea, how do we do that?

A lot of people here echo Yahtzee, as much as they don't want to admit it. Those who react with the most hostility to this claim are usually the worst offenders.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that those that react with hostility to Yahtzee actually agree with him?

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

A lot of people here echo Yahtzee, as much as they don't want to admit it. Those who react with the most hostility to this claim are usually the worst offenders.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that those that react with hostility to Yahtzee actually agree with him?

Nooo I'm saying that if you accuse people of this Yahtzee following, they usually get quite hostile. Those who get the most hostile are usually the worst for it.

 

[oplinger]

Then the contracts and standards of professionalism need to change. But honestly, I don't know where this standard came from. Again, in other areas of the internet opinion makers constantly respond to each other. Again, disagreement is the heart of debate and the search for truth. I think we should banish the notion that direct counter-arguments are "unprofessional" or equivalent to "taking shots at each other." If the pundits can't respond to specific arguments made by others they must resort to strawmen and vague generalizations. That does not help anyone.

The standard comes from real life etiquette. You don't just disagree with someone and call them out unless you're in the proper setting. It's about being polite and respectful. Who are you to call them out on their opinions? Oh just some guy on the same website as me? Pfft.

By saying they're wrong, you're also defaming them. You may think it's silly, but if someone came out and publicaly claimed you were wrong and what are you gonna say about it, you probably wouldn't respond very well to that. And it puts you on the spot and all of your actions will then be picked apart by all of your fans, and their fans. How you act becomes very important, putting undue stress on you as you decide weather to respond, ignore it, how to respond, etc.

And that's kinda what professionalism is all about. Being polite and respectful.

Good idea, how do we do that?

I.....have no idea. I'm sure it'd involve an email to someone..or a PM..I don't know who important people are >.>

 

[Awexsome]

Well the thing about Yahtzee is to take his stuff with a grain of salt. He's truly a comedian before a critic and not even close to a legitimate reviewer.

The Escapist is pretty comfortable with their kinda general majority attitude that I assume their founding community was built from and that's reflected by everything within the site. How articles are written, how the mods deliver judgement, the articles that get the most popular, the videos that get the most publicity...

I take issue with some of the ingrained attitudes that fester here and there around the site but I stay here because when it comes to actual discussion the site has a lot better civil discussion than any other site I've ever been to. Flame wars aren't absent but they're not going on constantly and most people here actually try to avoid them rather than continuing them if a thread gets heated.

 

[Indignator]

The standard comes from real life etiquette. You don't just disagree with someone and call them out unless you're in the proper setting. It's about being polite and respectful. Who are you to call them out on their opinions? Oh just some guy on the same website as me? Pfft.

By saying they're wrong, you're also defaming them. You may think it's silly, but if someone came out and publicaly claimed you were wrong and what are you gonna say about it, you probably wouldn't respond very well to that. And it puts you on the spot and all of your actions will then be picked apart by all of your fans, and their fans. How you act becomes very important, putting undue stress on you as you decide weather to respond, ignore it, how to respond, etc.

And that's kinda what professionalism is all about. Being polite and respectful.

You can be polite and respectful while disagreeing with somebody. It's not about calling the other person out, it's about exchanging different opinions.

What isn't polite and respectful is what amounts to talking behind someone's back. That's what it looks like to me. MovieBob won't talk with Yahtzee about the art design in JRPGs, instead he will make snide remarks about those that dislike it and imply that they are uncomfortable in their sexuality (wish I could provide a link to the video, but I can't remember which one it was, but it was on the Game Overthinker, not one of his Escapist shows).