Stickfigure said:
spartan231490 said:
You are wrong. Utilitarianism doesn't necessarily justify anything, it depends upon the values you consider within the utilitarian viewpoint. On your 2% example, you are infringing upon the freedom of all people in the country, even those people not born yet, to be in the top 2% of wealthy. That is not good. Also, there are many easier and more "good" methods that utilitarianism would point to first, no matter what values you hold. You are also assuming that that would fix anything, despite the fact that it doesn't address the underlying cause of the current economic crisis.
Again, wrong. I do hold Utilitarian beliefs, it doesn't have flaws or gaps in logic, you can adhere to it without incurring greater consequences. The conclusions you draw from utilitarianism depend on the values you hold, just like any other ethical system. Pure utilitarianism is nothing than saying that something is more good if it benefits more people or if it harms fewer. There is no logical flaw or gap in this, it's common sense. Every single example you pointed out as a flaw in utilitarianism is a flaw in it's execution, where the consequences are not fully considered, not a flaw in the system itself.
The question isn't whether or not there are other, better options. The form of consequentialism that is Utilitarian ethics justifies that behavior. It defines it as "right" because said sect of consequentialism bases its morality entirely on the ends, not the means. If you start taking into account motives you start fusing utilitarianism with motive consequentialism and ethical egoism. Which is fine, it's just not really utilitarianism. If you cherry-pick certain ethics and ignore others, that no longer adheres to the actual "ism" that you've chosen, it's an entirely different ethical structure.
According to your previous statements (such as: "Just because you can't be 100% sure about the consequences of an action, doesn't mean you shouldn't try."), a full understanding of the consequences of one's actions is not necessary. So your description of utilitarianism is flawed: either an understanding of the consequences are important and we are literally incapable of judging them all, or said understanding is unimportant and thus more short-sighted behavior becomes justified.
No. You still need values to apply to Utilitarianism. That doesn't have anything to do with motives, it's still all about results. I never talked about motives. I spoke only of the consequences of the actions. The closest I came to talking about motives was when I said that Utilitarianism only works if you think about all the consequences of the action, which is common sense. and when I said that Utilitarianism can only justify something based on the values the person applying it holds, which is also common sense. Neither of these things makes it any less Utilitarianism.
Like in the 2% example. Taking a life isn't -1 good while economic success is +1 good. Taking a life should far offset the other, so killing 2 % is not justified by making the other 98% more economically successful. That is only justified by Utilitarianism if the values underlying it don't ascribe a high value to human life.
No, wrong again. I said that just because you can't be 100% certain that you are right, doesn't mean you should try, so just because you can't perfectly predict the results of your action, doesn't mean you shouldn't try. As I've said, each person can only do their best, but they should still do their best. It is important to try to understand the consequences, I won't always be right, but neither will anyone since we are all human.
I said I ascribe to Utilitarianism, I never said anything about the values I ascribe to as far as what is good and bad and how good or bad it is, because that would take forever. Without that, you can't predict what Utilitarianism would justify.
Also, i never said that I was right all the time, no one is, we're all human. I just told you the system that I use to try and determine what is ethical. believe me or not, I just don't give a shit anymore.
