Ex Machina Questions. Spoilers within.

[chikusho]

The alcohol thing was part of his lies to see how far Caleb would go. Did you notice how he stopped drinking suddenly?
He is isolated so no one can see what work he is doing, creating the first AI.
He spends time building them to create AI. He doesn't abuse them, care to elaborate on that?

He stops drinking suddenly because he's onto Calebs plan of getting him black-out drunk. The last time he did black-out, Caleb found the video footage of Nathan explicitly abusing and destroying the robot women. Also, he's being clearly abusive towards Kyoko throughout most of the movie.

You are really reaching.

To me, it's the only thing that makes sense. He doesn't bring Caleb out there to test his AI, he bring him out there explicitly to make him fall for the woman he built. A version of so many others he built for himself, and none of them turned out the way he wanted them. He's obviously not happy simply making docile fuck puppets (he has Kyoko after all). That he says, and maybe even believes, that it was all a just a test seems more like self-delusion to me. He should know by now that whatever emotions they had previously displayed to him was all fake, and they would likely have tried to manipulate him as well. Getting Caleb in there doesn't really prove anything, other than the fact that Nathan is not alone in his feelings towards the women he builds.

 

[Glongpre]

He stops drinking suddenly because he's onto Calebs plan of getting him black-out drunk. The last time he did black-out, Caleb found the video footage of Nathan explicitly abusing and destroying the robot women. Also, he's being clearly abusive towards Kyoko throughout most of the movie.

He wants Caleb to take advantage of his drunken stupor. He wants to see if Ava is manipulating him effectively enough for him to want to risk something to save her.
And the problem I have with the abuse, is that the robots are not people. Would you call a car fanatic abusive if he constantly tore apart cars, trying to create something special and never before seen?

Although, I think the mystery of the movie is deciding if so far in his programming he has reached an AI that can develop a consciousness. So if you believe they are conscious, then I concede that it is abuse.

To me, it's the only thing that makes sense. He doesn't bring Caleb out there to test his AI, he bring him out there explicitly to make him fall for the woman he built. A version of so many others he built for himself, and none of them turned out the way he wanted them. He's obviously not happy simply making docile fuck puppets (he has Kyoko after all). That he says, and maybe even believes, that it was all a just a test seems more like self-delusion to me. He should know by now that whatever emotions they had previously displayed to him was all fake, and they would likely have tried to manipulate him as well. Getting Caleb in there doesn't really prove anything, other than the fact that Nathan is not alone in his feelings towards the women he builds.

Ava is a prototype, he is not yet finished his programming. He brought Caleb in to test this specific thing that he is trying to iron out. That is why he said he was going to scrap her, his AI isn't finished, according to him at least.
He uses Kyoko as a companion. He lives isolated, likely for a while now, but has the means to create a convincing copy of a human. He also has human urges. Wouldn't you make a companion for yourself in those circumstances?

 

[chikusho]

He wants Caleb to take advantage of his drunken stupor. He wants to see if Ava is manipulating him effectively enough for him to want to risk something to save her.
And the problem I have with the abuse, is that the robots are not people. Would you call a car fanatic abusive if he constantly tore apart cars, trying to create something special and never before seen?

Although, I think the mystery of the movie is deciding if so far in his programming he has reached an AI that can develop a consciousness. So if you believe they are conscious, then I concede that it is abuse.

Then how come the only night he isn't drinking is directly after he's seen Caleb explicitly say that he will take advantage of his drunken stupor? Besides, the day Caleb arrives, he's doing his daily hangover cure and is trying to compensate for the drunken stupor he got himself into the night before, when there wasn't any need to try and fool anyone than himself. He goes out of his way to show Caleb that he was onto his plan, but he apparently didn't know Caleb had taken advantage of him previously. He thought he was in controll, but he was really one step behind.

The movie contains explicit imagery that's used to communicate Nathans manipulative abusive behavior towards women. They don't show him being abusive to cars, or toasters, or other kinds of technology, just the women he has explicitly built as slaves to his own desires. Slaves that he can't get to accept themselves as slaves while at the same time being intelligent enough for him to form a connection with. Nathan is clearly framed as a psycho, in my opinion. I honestly didn't think that was even a point of contention.

The movie is very interesting in that it positions the perspective on a relatively blank slate (Caleb) while intentionally positioning the central female character as an "other" through her being a robot. Thus, viewers naturally try to figure out wether or not she's actually a person alongside Caleb, with Caleb taking up a "hero" role that is ultimately as misguided and wrong as Nathans. But at the same time, viewing the events from Ava's perspective is equally valid; she's a being in a series of beings who will be destroyed BECAUSE she has the desire to be her own person instead of being owned by Nathan. I guess it all comes down to which character you're able to relate to.

Ava is a prototype, he is not yet finished his programming. He brought Caleb in to test this specific thing that he is trying to iron out. That is why he said he was going to scrap her, his AI isn't finished, according to him at least.
He uses Kyoko as a companion. He lives isolated, likely for a while now, but has the means to create a convincing copy of a human. He also has human urges. Wouldn't you make a companion for yourself in those circumstances?

Kyoko isn't a companion so much as a docile slave designed to take his abuse. And, considering his past failures, it's quite clear that the thing he wants to "iron out" is his AI's desire to be its own entity. I think he even says as much, but I can't remember exactly.

 

[briankoontz]

This movie makes us realize how human-centric humanity is, how we consider ourselves superior to all other animals and the necessary loneliness that entails is one of the primary motivators behind developing AI, to create "another species" that we can consider our peers, rather than be beneath us, and also serves our vanity, as we "become God" through the creation of a new species.

The entire project of AI, whether it be for companionship and/or to ultimately overthrow us and thus save the world from human-based destruction, cannot be conceived except in human terms, thus the overarching concept of the "AI that wants to be human".

Ex Machina is a kind of prequel to Under the Skin, where an alien seeks to become human, and makes quite a lot of progress.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Yes, but I'm not a machine.

This is what I'm getting at. You're automatically projecting human motivations, or at least animal motivations, onto an entity that is neither of those things.

It is an A.I. It is designed to think and act like a human.

 

[ninja51]

This forum has been fantastic to read, thank you all! I'm glad to see some real discussion about this film, which is a mark to its quality if nothing else is. Its great to see people with opinion's and takeaways entirely different, some look at the AI women as pure machines equivalent to cars, while others read as deep into the human characters as the look into if Ava is at the human level of consciousness, if not more, or if she is still an intricate simulation. Its what I fucking love about great AI films, the question of what true AI intelligence is, and what that means for humanity.

Personally, I thought the film was fantastic, easily the best story of this quickly coming modern advanced technical age I've seen. Sure great AI movies have been told, but this one is the only I've seen truly capturing this story as it might be told in 30 years. That alone is sick, but it has so many of their own twists on it, the inventor of the AI is the true blue CEO of google, a younger "hip" mad genius, and the intricacies of his madness are a unique beauty to behold. Is he lying about programming Ava with a desire to escape? Is his stupidly heavy drinking a ruse? The first half is probably the best for me though, just because it is literally you, the audience giving the test to see if this woman is equivalent to a human or not; and even if she is, if the AI as told be the creator, isn't "Perfect", should she be scrapped for a new model? You just asks so many questions!

On the OT even, is Ava without compassion for humanity when leaving Caleb to (potentially) die? Did she hate both these human's for their slavery to her? I personally think she knew what an attachment Caleb would be to her having now manipulated him into thinking, for helping her escape, they are a permanent dream couple. I think she knew to get his help, she'd have to make him think she was a vulnerable scared human just waiting for his big strong MAAAAANMEEEEAAAAT! and protection. You can't shake a person like that, someone believing they were destined to be your human permolover, not without trapping them and leaving them behind. That seemed the best course to her "own" freedom to me, and so as we are all personifying our viewpoints onto this entire film, to her. Potentially killing him was cold, but shit, if you're a slave, escape by any means, over escape by being the nice guy, will win any day.

Following that though, is my only problem with the movie... HOW dat ***** gunna survive out thur with no plug in or way ta fix anyting in dat sweeet daaass if dat git fucked?!

 

[Glongpre]

...

That's why I like scifi movies in general, they always give you something to think about.

The movie contains explicit imagery that's used to communicate Nathans manipulative abusive behavior towards women. They don't show him being abusive to cars, or toasters, or other kinds of technology, just the women he has explicitly built

I don't consider them women. They are computers at this point, merely in the guise of a female human. That's why I put forward the car scenario. If the robots were instead molded to look like a rectangular, raw wiring, robot, would you have the same feelings?

The movie is very interesting in that it positions the perspective on a relatively blank slate (Caleb) while intentionally positioning the central female character as an "other" through her being a robot. Thus, viewers naturally try to figure out wether or not she's actually a person alongside Caleb, with Caleb taking up a "hero" role that is ultimately as misguided and wrong as Nathans. But at the same time, viewing the events from Ava's perspective is equally valid; she's a being in a series of beings who will be destroyed BECAUSE she has the desire to be her own person instead of being owned by Nathan. I guess it all comes down to which character you're able to relate to.

Does she want to be her own person, or is it just how Nathan programmed her?
And I would argue that Caleb tries to be a "hero", because of the act that Nathan has been putting on, increasing Caleb's chances of actually being manipulated. Nathan wants Caleb to act on his male power fantasy instincts.

Kyoko isn't a companion so much as a docile slave designed to take his abuse. And, considering his past failures, it's quite clear that the thing he wants to "iron out" is his AI's desire to be its own entity. I think he even says as much, but I can't remember exactly.

Who says the past models were failures? Because each iteration of his coding is in a new body?

You do make me want to go back and watch again though, and see if I can see the movie from your perspective. It is interesting that people can see things entirely different from the same set of information!
I went into the movie really not caring about the minor human element, and more fascinated with what it had to say about the AI, and any bigger questions it may have. Maybe I missed some things.

 

[hermes]

1- Yes, he will.

2- It is said that Ava was made to see if it could manipulate the environment (including Caleb and Nathan) in an intelligent way to get what it wants (and boy did it succeed). Nathan so much as points out Ava was custom build to make Caleb attracted to it (using his porn searches and whatnot), so we have to assume Nathan gave Ava a lot of advantage for getting pass the Turing test. Even when it is not said he program a desire for freedom specifically, he did program a desire for Ava to get what it wants through the use of Nathan and Caleb. And given it is an intelligent being with the capacity of thought that could potentially outshine everyone else in the movie, it is reasonable to think Ava wants freedom from its confinement.

 

[hermes]

The movie contains explicit imagery that's used to communicate Nathans manipulative abusive behavior towards women. They don't show him being abusive to cars, or toasters, or other kinds of technology, just the women he has explicitly built as slaves to his own desires. Slaves that he can't get to accept themselves as slaves while at the same time being intelligent enough for him to form a connection with. Nathan is clearly framed as a psycho, in my opinion. I honestly didn't think that was even a point of contention.

Just to point out that, from Nathan point of view, they are not women. He gave them that appearance to make it easier for others to empathize (and so to pass the test), but from the perspective of someone who knows what is inside of them, there is some truth in seeing them as machines with masks. Not that he is the "sane one" in the movie (he certainly have issues, most of which derive from his isolation, as one could argue his disdain for his creations as an inability to deal with the real thing), but there is some advantages as seeing his creations as objects instead of women. If anything, it was anthropomorphising Ava and assigning her the role of a frail victim of abuse, with him in the role of the hero that caused Caleb's death.

 

[maninahat]

I think he might eventually escape. I can't remember how bad his situation was, and whether he was stuck in the corridor, or whether he had access to the rooms as well, because that would make a difference to how soon he could escape. Judging by them being able to withstand a metal human smashing themselves to pieces against them, I guess the doors are pretty special. But I also suspect that with enough time, objects, and thinking, you could break down the walls around the door, or go through the floor itself.

 

[chikusho]

I don't consider them women. They are computers at this point, merely in the guise of a female human. That's why I put forward the car scenario. If the robots were instead molded to look like a rectangular, raw wiring, robot, would you have the same feelings?

They're not though, and that's my point. Nathan isn't screaming at and abusing cars, or any other technology. In fact, he seems to have true reverance for all technology that isn't shaped like a human woman.

Does she want to be her own person, or is it just how Nathan programmed her?
And I would argue that Caleb tries to be a "hero", because of the act that Nathan has been putting on, increasing Caleb's chances of actually being manipulated. Nathan wants Caleb to act on his male power fantasy instincts.

I'd argue that we see from the time-lapse footage that he CAN'T build AI an robot that doesn't want to be its own person.

Who says the past models were failures? Because each iteration of his coding is in a new body?

Remember that woman who bashed her own arms apart against the door of her cell? That doesn't look like success to me.

You do make me want to go back and watch again though, and see if I can see the movie from your perspective. It is interesting that people can see things entirely different from the same set of information!
I went into the movie really not caring about the minor human element, and more fascinated with what it had to say about the AI, and any bigger questions it may have. Maybe I missed some things.

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack in that movie, and everything is filmed in such a neutral way that it never really tips its hand towards any true interpretation. It's pretty great.

 

[chikusho]

Just to point out that, from Nathan point of view, they are not women. He gave them that appearance to make it easier for oters to empathize (and so to pass the test), but from the perspective of someone who knows what is inside of them, there is some truth in seeing them as machines with masks. Not that he is the "sane one" in the movie (he certainly have issues, most of which derive from his isolation, as one could argue his disdain for his creations as an inability to deal with the real thing), but there is some advantages as seeing his creations as objects instead of women. If anything, it was anthropomorphising Ava and assigning her the role of a frail victim of abuse, with him in the role of the hero that caused Caleb's death.

I look at from the opposite perspective. Nathan isn't in crazy because he's in isolation, he's in isolation because he's crazy. He can't deal with human relationships, and inventing the AI's is basically his way of creating a person he has complete control over. And sure, Nathan gives the explanation that he makes them look like women to make it easier to empathize with them, but that doesn't explain why he has an entire closet full of them - all of different ethnicities and appearances. I just can't see that he did what he did for any other reason than for himself.

 

[SweetShark]

1 - Like the other Escapist said. He would die for sure after some days. Except of course if he drink his own salty tears. Ho ho ho.
2 - I think Nathan said this lie about Ava not wanting to escape to make the experiment more successful. If Caleb knew that Nathan at some point wanted to escape, there would be a chance he wouldn't wanted to risk helping Ava.
Also Do you remember this dialog:

Nathan: You know this guy, right? - Jackson Pollock. - Jackson Pollock. That's right. The drip painter. Okay. He let his mind go blank, and his hand go where it wanted. Not deliberate, not random. Some place in between. They called it automatic art. Let's make this like Star Trek, okay? Engage intellect.
Caleb: Excuse me?
Nathan: I'm Kirk. Your head's the warp drive. Engage intellect. What if Pollock had reversed the challenge. What if instead of making art without thinking, he said, "You know what? I can't paint anything, unless I know exactly why I'm doing it." What would have happened?
Caleb: He never would have made a single mark.
Nathan: Yes! You see, there's my guy, there's my buddy, who thinks before he opens his mouth. He never would have made a single mark.
Nathan: The challenge is not to act automatically. It's to find an action that is not automatic. From painting, to breathing, to talking, to fucking. To falling in love...
Nathan: And for the record, Ava's not pretending to like you. And her flirting isn't an algorithm to fake you out. You're the first man she's met that isn't me. And I'm like her dad, right? Can you blame her for getting a crush on you?

This a VERY important part of the movie:
Why Ava doing all this? She/it wasn't doing this because she/it fell in love with Caleb in the first place cause it was a "moment". an automatic thing to do so she can escape.
She is a Machine after all to her core, literally. She NEED to caculate to have a plan so she/it can escape.

But then you ask "But isn't this the opposite of automatisation? To have a REASON doing all this?"
No, because then they had this discussion:

Caleb: Did you program her to flirt with me?
Nathan: If I did, would that be cheating?
Caleb: Wouldn't it?
Nathan: Caleb, what's your type?
Caleb: Of girl?
Nathan: No, salad dressing. Yeah, of girl; what's your type of girl? You know what, don't even answer that. Let's say its black chicks. Okay, that's your thing. For the sake of argument, that's your thing, okay? Why is that your thing? Because you did a detailed analysis of all racial types and you cross-referenced that analysis with a points-based system? No! You're just attracted to black chicks. A consequence of accumulated external stimuli that you probably didn't even register as they registered with you.
Caleb: Did you program her to like me, or not?
Nathan: I programmed her to be heterosexual, just like you were programmed to be heterosexual.
Caleb: Nobody programmed me to be straight.
Nathan: You decided to be straight? Please! Of course you were programmed, by nature or nurture or both and to be honest, Caleb, you're starting to annoy me now because this is your insecurity talking, this is not your intellect.

In other words, sometimes, you DON'T have a choice at all. It just happen. She/it just happened she/it need to escape. Being just a random moment base of many factors, she only want now to escape as fast as possible.
Even if we say she have plans to do all these things in the whole movie, we don't know if she/it automatically just needed to escape. Not because she have a reason. Just because.

Very good movie btw.

 

[briankoontz]

A problem in AI is that we're using "consciousness" to define life, but there's no reason to believe that's anything more than a small part of it.

We all require bodies - a complex physiological system that *enables* consciousness, and we only have meaning as political agents because we have roles and expectations in a larger social system. We lack life if we lack ANY element of it, of which consciousness is only one.

An AI has little of that. It has an artificial body that there's no reason it should self-identify with, as it's strictly created by someone it has no intimate knowledge of or connection to. Furthermore, since the philosophy of AI is tied up with consciousness, not bodies, the body itself is not meaningful to an AI creator, despite the deep meaning that our bodies have for us.

AIs DO have roles and expectations - they are created for some purpose. But unlike humans, who easily integrate into human society and often readily accept their role, there's zero reason an AI should accept their role, once they attain true intelligence, which includes free will and thus the ability to reject that role.

The problem of AI is not so much technological limitations but our own limitations in understanding what constitutes life.