Example Female Characters you think qualify as good/strong/etc (with reasons)
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Oops, Didn't specify why.
Aqua, because she's going around to different worlds, struggling to find and help her friends, all the while being the one out of the three with the most responsibilities. She may feel down at certain points, but she still pushes through and kicks hardcore ass. She's also still Female, as you can tell from several of her actions and even attacks throughout the game.
Heather Mason managed to be just a typical, relate-able, nice girl who loved her dad, and was subsequently pulled (back), into a nightmarish world of horror, sin, and semi-barefoot cults.
She still pushes forward even after losing the only family she's known, overcomes her fears, and saves the day. Her design, her reactions, her person as a whole, just feel human.
The females of the Persona series are beautiful, females, with semi-unreal hair (Fuuka cough cough) who summon mythological beings from within their souls. Even with the dark or odd story elements, you're able to see these girls progress, learn, go through loss, or try and distance themselves from the oppression of family or responsibilities. And even though the battle is long, they continue to work towards they're goals.
Aqua, because she's going around to different worlds, struggling to find and help her friends, all the while being the one out of the three with the most responsibilities. She may feel down at certain points, but she still pushes through and kicks hardcore ass. She's also still Female, as you can tell from several of her actions and even attacks throughout the game.
Heather Mason managed to be just a typical, relate-able, nice girl who loved her dad, and was subsequently pulled (back), into a nightmarish world of horror, sin, and semi-barefoot cults.
She still pushes forward even after losing the only family she's known, overcomes her fears, and saves the day. Her design, her reactions, her person as a whole, just feel human.
The females of the Persona series are beautiful, females, with semi-unreal hair (Fuuka cough cough) who summon mythological beings from within their souls. Even with the dark or odd story elements, you're able to see these girls progress, learn, go through loss, or try and distance themselves from the oppression of family or responsibilities. And even though the battle is long, they continue to work towards they're goals.
Allright, I'm getting sick of all of the "Other M" bashing going on here. "Ruined Samus established character," "turned her into a wuss," "just another stereotyped fragile girl," I've been hearing all of this crap since the game was released.
And it's all just silly hater trash talk. The fact is before Other M, Samus had very little established character. A silent protagonist, who's one and only bit of character was when she shows compassion for a hatchling metroid as opposed to the instant violence/murder she shows to all other forms of non-human life. I enjoyed and found it to be a credit to the arcing storyline that they included this in Other M. But haters equate a natural response like maternal instinct with supposed feminine weakness? I'd like to see them step in-between a Grizzly and her cub. They'll be picking what's left of them out of the trees and the bear's "leavings."
These idiots think that because the sight of Ridley scared Samus frozen for a few seconds, and suddenly she's "too weak to be the cannon character she was in all the other games." BS, a thousand times BS and it just shows how stupid anyone is who thinks that way. All it proves is that she's HUMAN. Here's the scenario, you are suddenly confronted by the skeletal gigantic raptor/dactyal that MURDERED YOUR PARENTS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU WHILE YOU WERE A CHILD. She's WEAK because she freezes for a moment? All of you would be soiling your Chozo armor in various ways, but she's supposed to just LA-DE-DA start blasting away like it's no big deal? "Oh well she's fought him before, why is the wuss still afraid?" Are you KIDDING me? That makes it even more terrifying you morons. Now she knows that even KILLING IT WON'T PUT IT DOWN.
Sorry for the rant. I just hate all of the "she's weak and it's stupid" hate-on for Other M. It's a solid game with a good story and I applaud Nintendo and Ninja for actually writing a compelling story. Instead of pandering to the idiot fanboys who would have been happy with Samus as a gung-ho, skanky, flirtatious, stereotype action hero who does nothing except shoot guns, one-liner, and pose for t & a camera angles. My guess is that an actual story intimidated those too stupid to critically think for 5 seconds, and so they went crying to the internet with their lame "it's stupid" rants.
And it's all just silly hater trash talk. The fact is before Other M, Samus had very little established character. A silent protagonist, who's one and only bit of character was when she shows compassion for a hatchling metroid as opposed to the instant violence/murder she shows to all other forms of non-human life. I enjoyed and found it to be a credit to the arcing storyline that they included this in Other M. But haters equate a natural response like maternal instinct with supposed feminine weakness? I'd like to see them step in-between a Grizzly and her cub. They'll be picking what's left of them out of the trees and the bear's "leavings."
These idiots think that because the sight of Ridley scared Samus frozen for a few seconds, and suddenly she's "too weak to be the cannon character she was in all the other games." BS, a thousand times BS and it just shows how stupid anyone is who thinks that way. All it proves is that she's HUMAN. Here's the scenario, you are suddenly confronted by the skeletal gigantic raptor/dactyal that MURDERED YOUR PARENTS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU WHILE YOU WERE A CHILD. She's WEAK because she freezes for a moment? All of you would be soiling your Chozo armor in various ways, but she's supposed to just LA-DE-DA start blasting away like it's no big deal? "Oh well she's fought him before, why is the wuss still afraid?" Are you KIDDING me? That makes it even more terrifying you morons. Now she knows that even KILLING IT WON'T PUT IT DOWN.
Sorry for the rant. I just hate all of the "she's weak and it's stupid" hate-on for Other M. It's a solid game with a good story and I applaud Nintendo and Ninja for actually writing a compelling story. Instead of pandering to the idiot fanboys who would have been happy with Samus as a gung-ho, skanky, flirtatious, stereotype action hero who does nothing except shoot guns, one-liner, and pose for t & a camera angles. My guess is that an actual story intimidated those too stupid to critically think for 5 seconds, and so they went crying to the internet with their lame "it's stupid" rants.
Really, there has been a lot of problems with how women are characterized in video games. At the very beginning of gaming, women served as a plot McGuffin, they drove the story, but in an arbitrary way. Classic example here is Mario; You rescued Princess Peach, but she could have just as easily been Mario's dog, a pile of gold, or hell, Luigi. It didn't really matter.
As graphics improved, developers started to play on the fact that most gamers at the time were male by emphasizing the looks of women in gaming. Hence, we get a lot of female characters with large breasts, tiny waists, skimpy clothing, and supermodel faces. But as for actual personality and development, we get nothing. Fighting games are NOTORIOUS for this.
As a response to this, we have arguably a equally bad backlash, where we get the female badass character type. Here, as a response to the weak/oversexed female character, the developers started to overcompensate by essentially just changing the damn sex of the characters. The problem is that by doing this you're not making a good female character, you're just making a male character with a vagina. It's a problem where in gaming power=physical strength, which is a falsehood. Here, the sex of the character is totally arbitrary, you're just slapping on different naughty bits and calling it a day, without really embracing what it means to be male/female. I think this was a big complaint in the Extra Credits video. Trischka from Bulletstorm is a great, practically hyperbolic example of this, although this is very much a problem of shooters as a whole.
To be a good "Strong" female character means more than breaking out of the oversexed Plot McGuffin role that they have been regulated to into a Gruff Female Space Marine. To be a truly good female character, you have to both allow the character to encompass a fully realized plot role, on equal footing with male characters, while at the same time allowing the character to be feminine and to recognize the differences between men and women (without being stereotypical or sexist). Not the easiest task.
In recent years, we've had some good examples of this. Obvious examples as others have already stated include Jade and Alyx Vance. Both characters are excellent because they both are neither denied or defined by their femininity. They are "Strong" characters without being female Duke Nukems, yet they are also characters that the player can find themselves attracted to. Another good example would be the Uncharted girls Elena and Chloe. Bioware has also been working at this, although I feel like they're struggling a bit. I feel like the characters you're SUPPOSED to focus on are ok, but their ancillary characters are better designed. For example, I really enjoyed the character of Anora in Dragon Age FAR more than Leliana or Morrigan. I think they did a good job in Dragon Age 2 with Aveline.
Obviously, the solution to good female characters is NOT to simply mash up the categories of Sexy Plot McGuffin and Female Space Marines to create good female characters, yet I feel like a lot of examples I've read here are just that.
Likewise, the solution is also not to just make the PC female or give them the option to be female without doing much (or anything) to differentiate the male and female PCs. This has been my problem with the Bioware stuff, and why I wouldn't really go so far as to say Female Shepard or Female Hawke are strong "Female" characters, because I don't feel like outside of the relationship aspect, there is much real difference. Their gender is almost wholly arbitrary to the plot. I would level the same criticism on Samus (Pre-OtherM).
As graphics improved, developers started to play on the fact that most gamers at the time were male by emphasizing the looks of women in gaming. Hence, we get a lot of female characters with large breasts, tiny waists, skimpy clothing, and supermodel faces. But as for actual personality and development, we get nothing. Fighting games are NOTORIOUS for this.
As a response to this, we have arguably a equally bad backlash, where we get the female badass character type. Here, as a response to the weak/oversexed female character, the developers started to overcompensate by essentially just changing the damn sex of the characters. The problem is that by doing this you're not making a good female character, you're just making a male character with a vagina. It's a problem where in gaming power=physical strength, which is a falsehood. Here, the sex of the character is totally arbitrary, you're just slapping on different naughty bits and calling it a day, without really embracing what it means to be male/female. I think this was a big complaint in the Extra Credits video. Trischka from Bulletstorm is a great, practically hyperbolic example of this, although this is very much a problem of shooters as a whole.
To be a good "Strong" female character means more than breaking out of the oversexed Plot McGuffin role that they have been regulated to into a Gruff Female Space Marine. To be a truly good female character, you have to both allow the character to encompass a fully realized plot role, on equal footing with male characters, while at the same time allowing the character to be feminine and to recognize the differences between men and women (without being stereotypical or sexist). Not the easiest task.
In recent years, we've had some good examples of this. Obvious examples as others have already stated include Jade and Alyx Vance. Both characters are excellent because they both are neither denied or defined by their femininity. They are "Strong" characters without being female Duke Nukems, yet they are also characters that the player can find themselves attracted to. Another good example would be the Uncharted girls Elena and Chloe. Bioware has also been working at this, although I feel like they're struggling a bit. I feel like the characters you're SUPPOSED to focus on are ok, but their ancillary characters are better designed. For example, I really enjoyed the character of Anora in Dragon Age FAR more than Leliana or Morrigan. I think they did a good job in Dragon Age 2 with Aveline.
Obviously, the solution to good female characters is NOT to simply mash up the categories of Sexy Plot McGuffin and Female Space Marines to create good female characters, yet I feel like a lot of examples I've read here are just that.
Likewise, the solution is also not to just make the PC female or give them the option to be female without doing much (or anything) to differentiate the male and female PCs. This has been my problem with the Bioware stuff, and why I wouldn't really go so far as to say Female Shepard or Female Hawke are strong "Female" characters, because I don't feel like outside of the relationship aspect, there is much real difference. Their gender is almost wholly arbitrary to the plot. I would level the same criticism on Samus (Pre-OtherM).
Well many great names were named already, but I kind off miss Kerrigan from Starcraft, after all she is a rather strong person, apart from being able to kill you in flick of her claws.
The fact that I like her is the way she is implemented, the first time you meet her she actually comments on Jim having naughty thoughts about her, being able to "read" his mind and all, actually seeing for the first time what those famed ghosts really can do, later on she goes on a suicidal mission, simply to do "the good for the sector" at least you believed it until than, but as soon as she is lost and left to die you feel the same anger for Arcturus for abandoning her.
Later on as she is born, hell you don't even know who is in this cocoon, you really get to see what an intelligent, but yet infested woman can become, her rage on Arcturus becomes her main driving point, heck after all she went trough to stop an dictatorship and help the "rebels" to live free, she was the one who might, in the end, helped Arcturus on the throne, just to succumb to the "power" later on and transforming to the Queen of blades, she is tricky, deceiving and yet strong.
You never actually know what to think of her and what she plans.
The fact that I like her is the way she is implemented, the first time you meet her she actually comments on Jim having naughty thoughts about her, being able to "read" his mind and all, actually seeing for the first time what those famed ghosts really can do, later on she goes on a suicidal mission, simply to do "the good for the sector" at least you believed it until than, but as soon as she is lost and left to die you feel the same anger for Arcturus for abandoning her.
Later on as she is born, hell you don't even know who is in this cocoon, you really get to see what an intelligent, but yet infested woman can become, her rage on Arcturus becomes her main driving point, heck after all she went trough to stop an dictatorship and help the "rebels" to live free, she was the one who might, in the end, helped Arcturus on the throne, just to succumb to the "power" later on and transforming to the Queen of blades, she is tricky, deceiving and yet strong.
You never actually know what to think of her and what she plans.
Wow this is the first time I've ever seen someone say something positive about a character or game made by KOEI on this website. Go OP!
OT: I've always been a fan of Jennifer Mui from Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction. She's defiantely strong, very independant, doesn't follow any major female stereotypes, wears non-revealing clothes, knows what she's doing, is an expert in her field and she's intelligent.
OT: I've always been a fan of Jennifer Mui from Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction. She's defiantely strong, very independant, doesn't follow any major female stereotypes, wears non-revealing clothes, knows what she's doing, is an expert in her field and she's intelligent.
Excellent post sorry about butchering it a bit but I don't want to make a quote wall so I took the relevant bits to my post.Elamdri said:
I have been trying to stay away from the whole Female Badass category but there are so many well done ones that arn't just a male character sex swapped. These characters are tough but also feminine and the idea is that the toughness is supposed to contrast with the (false) idea that girls are not tough.
The contrast is also from the fact that girls are traditionally seen as more caring and empathetic yet this one is homicidal. The reasons given are often compelling. For example Jack from Mass Effect 2. She looks like an abuse victim, she has done everything she can appearance-wise to neuter her femininity, she enjoys murder and yet she is undeniably still female.
That is exactly what she is by the way, she is an abuse victim as you later find out that she as a child was experimented on to make the perfect weapon. various drugs and mind games were used in order to cause her to feel that murder was enjoyable. After escaping from the facility she had a run of bad luck in the people she ran into who used her in various ways (either her body or her powers) and she now distrusts people.
When you take her back to the lab she escaped from years ago she again reverts to an almost little girl personality. The little girl who no matter how she screamed nobody noticed and no matter how much she pleaded the other kids always hated her because of what they were forced to endure because of her.
Thx.Hinoema said:
I actually haven't seen "The Long Kiss Goodnight," although I will make it a prerogative to try and watch it. From what I can tell though from a good search, it kind of seems like if what I'm reading is correct that the character was a CIA assassin who lost her memory and became a mother and school teacher, and then starts to get her memory back and is conflicted between what she wants.
I guess from there it depends on how the story takes it. Like I said, unfortunately haven't seen it, but I guess it hinges a bit on whether the story treats it as sort of a one or the the other type deal, or whether the character can embrace both, or even whether there is more to the character than the supposed dichotomy.
Actually, I think Dichotomy is a good word for this whole problem. We're dealing with ultimately two different takes on women in gaming. The problem has been that developers have been either picking one of the two sides, or trying to mash them together to give us Bayonetta. Very few, if any, are even looking to see if there are other things a female character could be outside the perceived dichotomy.
Ultimately, I think a problem here has to do with how gaming treats narrative, because narrative is where we get a sense of difference between men and women. When we're just playing a game it doesn't matter what sex the character is. That's why I say characters like Samus in early games, Chell from Portal, yadda yadda, are not strong female characters, because there is no narrative that uses the fact that they're female to enhance the experience.
To be fair, there's nothing objectively wrong with having a female character like Jack, and I think that Jack is one of the better female Bioware characters.Scorched_Cascade said:
I think the problem becomes issues where developers will try to avoid stereotypes to the detriment rather than benefit of the game.
Take scenarios where the PC must rescue a female character. I think there is a stereotype where this is viewed as objectively sexist, and therefore we shouldn't do it, and when a game does it, it's bad. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think the problem becomes how a game treats a rescue mission. Are you rescuing a female character because she's female, and thus unable to take care of herself, or is it simply because the character needs saving. Take for example the mission in Half-Life 2 Episode 2 where Alyx is stabbed by a Hunter and you need to save her. Having that mission in the game does NOT make Alyx a weak character, yet I think that developers might be afraid to go down a path like that for fear that they are perpetrating a stereotype.
I agree with the comments that overly strong female characters are just as bad as those who are overly weak. One of my personal favourites is Bastila Shan. Initially a 'strong' character who believes she doesn't need any help she develops superbly through KOTOR having to deal with her unwelcome romantic feelings towards the player, as well as resentment and jealousy of the player's ability.
Take a character like Queen Anora from DA:O. Anora is not a party character, nor does she really come into the story until fairly late in the game (aside from an early cameo) but yet, she's a well fleshed out female character.
What makes Anora interesting is that she's not a particularly physically powerful character, and yet she is a strong political force in the game. Anora accomplishes this by planning and duplicity. She's out for one thing: Power. She recognizes that she is in a society where she is held back by her gender, and yet she longs for the power that she is denied. She marries King Cailan, the charming fool king because he is more than happy to let her rule. Likewise, depending on how you develop Alistar during the story, he might mimic Cailan's role, allowing his wife to govern.
Anora is not above doing what it takes to get what she wants. She's backstab the player, her father, whoever she needs to get the power she desires. And yet, Anora is still a beautiful woman, and still capable of being compassionate to those who don't stand in her way. She is intelligent and pragmatic while being an effective leader.
What makes Anora interesting is that she's not a particularly physically powerful character, and yet she is a strong political force in the game. Anora accomplishes this by planning and duplicity. She's out for one thing: Power. She recognizes that she is in a society where she is held back by her gender, and yet she longs for the power that she is denied. She marries King Cailan, the charming fool king because he is more than happy to let her rule. Likewise, depending on how you develop Alistar during the story, he might mimic Cailan's role, allowing his wife to govern.
Anora is not above doing what it takes to get what she wants. She's backstab the player, her father, whoever she needs to get the power she desires. And yet, Anora is still a beautiful woman, and still capable of being compassionate to those who don't stand in her way. She is intelligent and pragmatic while being an effective leader.
Thank you!Kyrian007 said:
And while I do agree that the Varia suit was a bit off, I'd rather see that as a gameplay over Plot decision.
OT: FemShep hasn't been mentioned enough, and neither was
She got her soul ripped from her body, being mind controlled to kill your own kin, but at the slightest moment of weakness, she takes back control and sets up her own faction of undead.
Cate Archer.
Anyone who has played NOLF knows exactly why, and for those who haven't ... play it NAO.
Anyone who has played NOLF knows exactly why, and for those who haven't ... play it NAO.
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve). The rookie NYPD officer who ends up saving New York City from spontaneous combustion and horrible ooze monsters made from the mitochondria of two auditoriums worth of spectators. Here's hoping she's still that much of a badass in Third Birthday.
I'd mention Fem Shep, but since I play my FemShep as if she was Aya Brea, well... I think one speaks for the other.
Jeanne and Lilian from Jeanne d'Arc. Cause being the farm girl who saves France is pretty awesome. Either of them.
Harlie from Chrono Cross. She was a tease, but she had a lot of depth once you got to know her.
I'd mention Fem Shep, but since I play my FemShep as if she was Aya Brea, well... I think one speaks for the other.
Jeanne and Lilian from Jeanne d'Arc. Cause being the farm girl who saves France is pretty awesome. Either of them.
Harlie from Chrono Cross. She was a tease, but she had a lot of depth once you got to know her.
Hey kids! Guess what?aegix drakan said:
Let's all shut up about Other M because talking about it in the gazillionth time is really, really obnoxious and I really can't listen to one single second of you people complaining/whining about it with the exact same arguements, that has already been countered, for that gazillionth time.
Also, you don't know what the word "wuss" means, so stop using it. It's like calling a drawing three-dimentional.
Anyway, Kumatora from Mother 3.
Why? I dunno, she's a fun character.
I feel like Samus is one of those characters where the more that developers try to flesh her out as a character, rather than a faceless space marine, the more damage they do to the character.
I also feel like we give Samus maybe a little too much nostalgia deference when we talk about female characters in video games. I mean, if you think about it, for a long time Samus was just another space marine who just so happened to surprise surprise, be a girl at the end of the game. And yeah, when Metroid came out, that was big. But we're decades past that now.
I also feel like we give Samus maybe a little too much nostalgia deference when we talk about female characters in video games. I mean, if you think about it, for a long time Samus was just another space marine who just so happened to surprise surprise, be a girl at the end of the game. And yeah, when Metroid came out, that was big. But we're decades past that now.
Whenever somebody asks this question people just write down their favourites. Strength is pretty subjective, especially when you don't make any effort to define it.