Whoracle said:
Strazdas said:
This is not 1990. An average user should not see terminal at all in their usage. Terminal commands should be handled by software with GUI. That is the bare minimum standard we must uphold if we want linux to be widespread. Its not about how complex it is for the machine, its about how complex it is for the end user. and end users understand GUI.
No. End users understand close to nothing. neither GUI nor CLI. And end users shouldn't have to configure anything, really, which is why sensible defaults are important, no matter if GUI or CLI.
I had much better exeprience telling people to "press this button that look like a disc" than telling people to enter commands. console seem to confuse people for some reason much more than nice looking pictures. But you are right, most users dont understand anything. however it is much simpler for them to learn to use GUI, and they have to learn unless they want to come running to me every day.
Sensible defauts does not mean most restricted. I remember there was a firewall (i wont name it now) that had all restrictions on by default. i took half an hour to set everything to "Sensible" levels where instead of automatically blocking everything it would indeed ask me if this new program i installed to conenct to internet really should connect to internet. most users - bah, itnernet is gone, it doesnt work, lets delete it (and they delete files and not uninstall meaning the firewall still blocks the internet and they call ctech support). On the other hand another firewall would allow all connections unless told to be blocked. It stopped being supported 4 years ago and people still use it sucesfully.
Simple user does not need restrictions. simple user need things to work. and since we dont know their configuration we should make the default settings as open to that as possible.
Someone who is unable to click on "Start" and then type 3 letters is equally unable to download teamviewer and give you the ID/passcode.
I work in 3rd level tech support, and I meet people like that every week... but those people have no (and I mean aboslutely no) need for interchanging files between different OSes, since they don't even know what a file IS or where it resides in the file system, OS be damned.
they usually get confused at finding command prompt. they seem to be unable to use the run program. mostly thgey end up writing the console commands into the run program line. Teamviewer though? send it via skype (and they all know how to use skype here, there isnt anyone with internet without skype in my country sadly (skype is shit)) they run it and bam your inside.
You do have a point with most of them not wanting file sharing between OSs since they usually dont even know what OS is, but that does not mean we should make such sharing unnecessarely complicated.
I believe that, but even then you can get them to read what it says EXACTLY on the prompt, as opposed to "But I clicked the mozilla icon". Also, have you considered that this specific example might be your fault? I don't want to attack you or anything, but I had a similar experience once, where I told a guy that I needed his logos for his website, and if he could send them to me. I got them printed out in the mail. And yes, that was my fault, because in his world, "to send" something doesn't mean by email.
Maybe the same with you: "Type COMMAND and then ENTER" as opposed to "Type COMMAND and then press the ENTER Key".
Granted im going from memory here but i believe i told him to type in command and "press enter". so what he did was press E N T E R on keyboard..... Hilarity ensued when i tried to tell him that there is a button called enter and he refused to believe me.
Yes prompt can read you things exactly (assuming they dont just go "oh and it says a bunch of numbers i dont understand" and dont read it, but you can also do exact stuff with the interface since interface is standardized enough. Also with interface once they do it they will know how to do it again. No such luck with command promt i fear.
People don't want to be shown. They want someone to just "fix it" for them. They don't listen, they don't care. And neither CLI nor GUI will help there. And if there's a will to learn, it's easier for people to write down commands than GUI interactions. But I'm not talking about USING software via the CLI. I'm talking configuration here. And such people simply should never get to the point where they have to install and configure a service on their system.
Hence my first post in here: "Why samba? Let them create the share under windows and just click 'Browse Network' in their file browser of choice. Maybe let them install cifs-utils first, which doesn't need to be configured."
Most people just want things to work. Thats why they are more willing to try to "fix" it themselves than turn the thing in for repairs, they dont want to bother. and if they end up needing to call multiple times for same issue they end up "fixing it themselves". of course that does not always mean they know what thiey are doing, but people are willing to learn for convenience. They dont like to call you as much as you dont like them calling.
However people are much more willing to learn GUI than commands. Maybe its irrational, maybe its just the way our brain works, but thats how it is. There is a reason why computers only became popular when almost everything went into GUI. people dont like consoles.
While I concur with the rest of your paragraph, this is a false analogy. Yes, not everyone is a chef, but almost everyone can at least cook well enough to not poison themselves and not starve. No one expects the general user to configure his OS from the ground up, bells and whistles and everything. But people should have at least HEARD of a file browser, and should be able to input simple one line commands into a text prompt. Only on the computer, that is asked too much apparently. Even if said people do EXACTLY that every day, only not with a text prompt, but with a word processor.
Anecdotical evidence, granted, but pretty much every married woman i know think thier husband dont know how to cook at all. I know enough not to starve, though im no chef, but i often get praised for maknig my own food instead of just going to eat in diners and all, because those people dont know how to do much more than boil eggs and put things in microwaves. sadly the new generation are terrible at cooking. sure they wont starve, as long as there is pre-prepared food in the store.
I hope for the day when the average user were knowledgeable enough to configure his OS. Not from ground up obviuosly but with the GUI we have in for example windows now they can configure it (even though i still think XP was more configurable on that level).
We resort to calling file browser "going to my computer" here because thats what people actually know.
Yeah there seems to be a problem of people not being able to work otuside of their confort zone. word processor - they can do anything. command prompt - unable to type simple command. But that seems to be common human trend and not in computers alone.
And I shit you not, almost half the class sat in front of their computers and patted and pawed the screens, wondering why nothing happened, completely stumped by the concept of mouse and keyboard...
God, its sooener than i anticipated. Hoard the tech! apocalypse is coming.
Its not that bad here but were getting there. Sad thing is, we got touchscreen monitors now, so they may as well be the future....