Explain to me the logic behind Metal Gear Solid's use of Robots armed with Nukes?

[Dalisclock]

It makes even less sense when you realize Rex in Metal Gear Solid 1 had the ability to launch a stealth nuke.

How does that not make sense? Basically no one will realize a Nuke has been fired?

Exactly, so why even have a robot to make it mobile? The whole benefit to having a moving nuclear launcher is so you can fire it from any location, but if the missle can't be tracked by radar anyway it doesn't matter where you launch it from.

Impossible to pinpoint and take out the launch site? Plausible deniability of who fired it? It was designed to bypass an arms control treaty after all. I suspect that's kind of the point Kojima was trying to make with REX. If you have a nuclear weapon that can be fired from anywhere in the world but it's launch can't be detected, you undermine MAD and nuclear deterrence which could lead to all sorts of problems in a world that has a ton of nuclear weapons.

 

[Pseudonym]

Civilization V has the answer in the form of the 'giant death robot' flavour text:

The "mech" is a giant bipedal mechanical robot armed with a variety of missiles, Gatling gun arms, laser-beam eyes and a deadly kung-fu punch. Although not currently found on the modern battlefield, no doubt across the world governments and evil corporations are secretly developing these metal behemoths even as we speak. When these mechs come into service, all of the world's other weaponry will become obsolete, and humanity's fate will be decided by a climactic battle between armies of good and evil mechs in the streets of downtown Tokyo. (Assuming that the giant radioactive monsters don't get us first.)

Duh. Ain't no way you can defeat a nuclear powered kung-fu punch.

 

[jademunky]

I was also going to mention that nobody in the Metal Gear universe seems to know that nuclear-armed-subs exist but it seems I was beaten to it.

But honestly, It's a giant robot. What are you gonna do? Not put a nuke on it?

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I was also going to mention that nobody in the Metal Gear universe seems to know that nuclear-armed-subs exist but it seems I was beaten to it.

But honestly, It's a giant robot. What are you gonna do? Not put a nuke on it?

Hey, maybe they don't. The Metal Gear universe has a lot of technology that's different from that in our world. Maybe there noone ever thought of equipping submarines with nuclear weapons, but they had that guy named Sokolov in Russia and that guy named Emmerich in America developing giant bipedal mechs and thought "Sure, let's go with that."

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

All things Metal Gear make no sense.

Hey, maybe they don't. The Metal Gear universe has a lot of technology that's different from that in our world. Maybe there noone ever thought of equipping submarines with nuclear weapons, but they had that guy named Sokolov in Russia and that guy named Emmerich in America developing giant bipedal mechs and thought "Sure, let's go with that."

Maybe? I mean it's suggested that Metal Gear has a lot of historical confluences that allow a world much like our own only with some fucking weird arse branches that then somehow feed into our collective idea of a world similar to our own.

I mean there was technically already a 'Rex'... the Soviets had developed mobile medium range ICBMs they could theoretically launch from anyplace they could smuggle them to. And effectively there's no reason why that is technically better or worse than a Rex.

MGS2--I mean I was lost by the idea that Marines truly expected to be able to build a Ray, be able to mass produce them, and somehow weren't a product of interagency support through things like DARPA. Sure, military funding is pretty fucking labyrinthine, but a 100 billion dollar black hole in a singular branch of the USN might be a bit of a surprise to any congress member.

Much less the ridiculous number of factories and manpower to build them.

"Hi, we need billions to build something that is incredibly weak, incredibly pointless, incredible wasteful, while we put on the backburner proper psychiatric care of returning soldiers." -- "Yeah, I can see why we need better psychiatric care of soldiers now. Thanks, but no."

Moreover, what fucking role does the Ray actually play in any conceptual battlefield Marines are expected to perform in? The thing gets taken out by a handful of stingers, which means they would be beaten by a stock standard enemy patrol boat--much less MiGs, mortars, attack helicopters or MBTs.

The thing is practically a walking, inevitable war crime of collateral damage anywhere Marines are expected to fight, so where exactly does it fit into the U.S. Marines' force composition?

I get it's supposedly an 'Anti-MG Metal Gear' but it's so fucking dumb. Why not a new type of missile to deal with enemy metal gears? You know, things that can be used by the USN? How about a new self-propelled gun that can be deployed from transport ships? How about literally anything else? Like, you know... aforementioned patrol boats? Why not just build more of them?

Hell, I get why the UN has fringe intelligence groups in Metal Gear World. It's simply to chart general insanity of various world powers.

I feel like Metal Gear is accidental surrealism.

 

[jademunky]

I was also going to mention that nobody in the Metal Gear universe seems to know that nuclear-armed-subs exist but it seems I was beaten to it.

But honestly, It's a giant robot. What are you gonna do? Not put a nuke on it?

Hey, maybe they don't. The Metal Gear universe has a lot of technology that's different from that in our world. Maybe there noone ever thought of equipping submarines with nuclear weapons, but they had that guy named Sokolov in Russia and that guy named Emmerich in America developing giant bipedal mechs and thought "Sure, let's go with that."

Yeah that works.

Odd then that society went from zero to Underwater-Robo-Laser/Missile-Ducks in seemingly just a few years after inventing the Nuclear-Dino-Mech.

 

[Dalisclock]

Maybe? I mean it's suggested that Metal Gear has a lot of historical confluences that allow a world much like our own only with some fucking weird arse branches that then somehow feed into our collective idea of a world similar to our own.

Well, let's not forget how stupid the Shagohod was. Needs a 3 mile long stretch pointed in the exact right direction to launch a missle to work properly. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest the types of places you'd find a 3 mile long stretch of straight line to use it in aren't really the places you'd need to place it. This isn't even taking into the account nobody has figured out to make a tank go fast enough and how you'd keep it from flying apart from the stress.

Hell, Firing a nuclear missile from a bomber makes more sense and this has been attempted on several occasions(Blue Steel and Skybolt if you want to look them up), but none have been reliable enough to put into service, especially when submarines exists.

Moreover, what fucking role does the Ray actually play in any conceptual battlefield Marines are expected to perform in? The thing gets taken out by a handful of stingers, which means they would be beaten by a stock standard enemy patrol boat--much less MiGs, mortars, attack helicopters or MBTs.

I get it's supposedly an 'Anti-MG Metal Gear' but it's so fucking dumb. Why not a new type of missile to deal with enemy metal gears? You know, things that can be used by the USN? How about a new self-propelled gun that can be deployed from transport ships? How about literally anything else? Like, you know... aforementioned patrol boats? Why not just build more of them?

Hell, Snake already proved that guys on foot can take out Metal Gears using grenades(Metal Gear B from MG2 is taken down by Snake lobbing grenades at the kneecaps) and anti-aircraft missiles. Even more humiliating, Snake used a REX(something he'd never piloted before) that he'd already blown up once and had sat 9 years exposed to the elements without repair or maintenance to take out a relatively new RAY(piloted by a guy who has experience using the damn things). Which either proves that REX was one tough SOB(Otocon apparently overengineered the hell out of it) or RAY is a fucking joke and total waste of taxpayer money.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Well, let's not forget how stupid the Shagohod was. Needs a 3 mile long stretch pointed in the exact right direction to launch a missle to work properly. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest the types of places you'd find a 3 mile long stretch of straight line to use it in aren't really the places you'd need to place it. This isn't even taking into the account nobody has figured out to make a tank go fast enough and how you'd keep it from flying apart from the stress.

Hell, Firing a nuclear missile from a bomber makes more sense and this has been attempted on several occasions(Blue Steel and Skybolt if you want to look them up), but none have been reliable enough to put into service, especially when submarines exists.

Pretty much. It is a ridiculous amount of mass, which would also invalidate being able to use it on anything less than cement. Like imagine the Shagohad realistically having to deal with the Russian rasputitsa. So what was the point of it in comparison to already promising Soviet research into mobile-launch platforms for medium range ICBMs? I think I forgive the Shagohad in that the concept of the metal gear was less important than a legitimately kind of interesting retake of the cliched mystery of Nazi gold-esque dimensions.

Kind of like a Cold War Die Hard III, with enough human drama balanced by humour.

So that Blue Steel missile was designed for the Avro Vulcan V-Bomber force or a new type of aircraft?

I'm not familiar with avionics or payload limits, but how many decoys could you possibly have with such a hefty missile system that could hypothetically be intercepted itself as compared to a conventional bomb?

Hell, Snake already proved that guys on foot can take out Metal Gears using grenades(Metal Gear B from MG2 is taken down by Snake lobbing grenades at the kneecaps) and anti-aircraft missiles. Even more humiliating, Snake used a REX(something he'd never piloted before) that he'd already blown up once and had sat 9 years exposed to the elements without repair or maintenance to take out a relatively new RAY(piloted by a guy who has experience using the damn things). Which either proves that REX was one tough SOB(Otocon apparently overengineered the hell out of it) or RAY is a fucking joke and total waste of taxpayer money.

Yeah... I mean it's clearly rule of cool, and I'm willing to maintain suspension of disbelief. But as an avid boardgamer and tabletop roleplayer, I just have to imagine a Dogs of War nWoD game and a GM trying to sell it as a chronicle. Three sessions in you'd be like; "Okay, look, I don't even..."

I don't mind nuance and little visual cues of a larger story that videogames can do really well (e.g. Bloodborne), but it's hard to take a game seriously that is ostensibly a group of characters and machines screaming; "I am Spartacus!" over way too many iterations. And that's when the plot was actually trying to say anything at all.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Rule of Cool aside...

Conventional nukes are launched from ICBM silos. Metal Gears and the Shagohod are silos on legs. With the right computer hardware, it would be possible to predict a launch trajectory and fire with a much wider and less predictable range than a stationary silo is capable of. Also harder to destroy with jets or your own nukes since they can just move out of the way.

I don't believe the nuclear stuff came into it until the Solid series. The original Metal Gear games just had it as an ultra-powerful walking tank with lots of varied weapons. No idea if it is actually possible to fire a nuke from a giant rail gun without its own propulsion trail. Probably not, but see above.

The original Metal Gear actually does mention "Nuclear Armed" during the one or two times it talks about the titular mecha. The big pros that Metal Gear has going for it are:

-In MGS3, Granin goes on about it being "The link between infantry and artillery" that can presumably traverse any terrain with the power of heavy artillery. The manual for MG2 details the idea of using heavy lift helicopters to transport it around if need be, and MGS3 actually showed this in action(as ridiculous as the idea of using like 6 Hinds is).

-Harder to track. It's about as trackable as a tank but that's a lot smaller and a lot more mobile then a missle silo.

-The Heavy armor and weapons means it can hold it's own in a fight(most artillery isn't particularly good at close range fighting, if not completely useless). Well, allegedly, since Snake took out 3 of the things on foot(that we know about) and Big Boss did just as well.

-Has a Crew of 1(except for the ones that were autonomous, like Peace Walker, ZEKE and snuffleupagus), which is a hell of a lot less then a submarine that requires like 100 specially trained crew.

-Presumably does not require special maintenance and repair facilities like a submarine does, though we never really saw what it needed as far as support goes. It probably has a much smaller logistics tail then a submarine does(Don't get me wrong, tanks are logistics and maintenance nightmares but submarines are much more specialized).

-You can hide it in an underground hanger when not deployed, which is shown plenty of times in the series. In fact, the first time a Metal Gear is shown in the series it's just sitting in its hanger which isn't terribly huge.

The big downside is that other then Rex, it's hard to see how any of them had much range. Pretty much all of them had basically a missle pod attached which limits the size of the missile and thus the effective range. Even the Shagohod wouldn't have had nearly the range it's claimed to have(even if you could get a tank to go that fast without flying apart or crashing into something, the boost in velocity wouldn't give it any noticeable range increase over a stationary launcher). Metal Gear would essentially be a heavily armored tactical nuclear platform.

Incidently, this type of thing does/did exist in real life. The term is Short ranged/theater ballastic missles, nuclear weapons designed with a range of about 100 miles or so. However, they're normally launched from what's essentially a military semi-truck because they're still pretty big. Almost none of the metal gears shown in the games(except maybe Peace Walker, because Peace Walker was fucking huge) look like they carry a big enough missle to actually reach that far. REX, due to the rail gun, is probably the exception, because it presumably doesn't need a missle to deliver the warhead across vast distances. THe rest of the the metal gears look like they'd pretty much be able to fire a nuke a couple of miles and that would be it.

And of course, RAY doesn't count due to being a hunter-killer of Metal Gears, not a nuclear weapons platform and Arsenal Gear is a damn submarine (I'm surprised the US Navy didn't just name it the USS Metal Gear).

In real life nobody actually has been able to build a decent bipedal vehicle that's worth the money and trouble to do so. Getting the legs to work properly so the thing can carry it's own weight is a major issue(Peace Walker points out that Huey was the one who solved that problem, which is why he's essentially the one who built it, as opposed to the Russian Officer in Snake Eater who came up with the concept) and there's also the matter of being able to power it. And other concerns such as the tall profile which makes it a larger target.

Of course, the real explanation is that it's Japanese, and the Japanese seem to be obsessed with giant robots. That and Kojima finds it a good shorthand to discuss his feelings on nuclear proliferation/deterrence when he's not being batshit insane.

You forgot the pterodactyl shriek/roar. It isn?t truly a metal gear without that. The other thing that?s funny involves considering the logistical/maintenance nightmare of tanks pointed out above which simply roll on two tracks with a five person crew, yet a mechanism roughly five times the size that walks around operates solo with relative ease and is somehow practically maintenance-free.

But this is the world of video games, so real world logic can just pipe down and take a seat.

 

[Zetatrain]

The logic is that it sounds cool. Anything beyond that is overthinking it.

Basically, this.

Well, the idea is that they're a mobile launch site for nukes. They aren't the most realistic idea but it's pretty obvious why they'd make for a useful weapon. You don't need a big elaborate launch site. You equip that thing with a nuke, fire it from where ever you want and before the enemy even realizes where exactly it was fired from you've moved it somewhere else. Plus, even if you've already fired your nuclear warhead you still have a giant mech that's equipped with a machine gun and a missile launcher.

Yeah, that's a REALLY great concept! If only we had something like that, but even smaller and more undetectable, that could go underwater to-

Wait, hang on, my invisible news headset is telling me that nuclear submarines (as in subs with nukes) have been a staple in the military since the cold war, and that they form the backbone of the "Mutually Assured Destruction" concept. Basically even if one nation nukes the other one to all hell, if they miss any of those hidden subs, the subs can proceed to revenge-nuke them long after the nuked country was destroyed.

Huh. How 'bout that. No need for a giant mobile mecha, we already have stealthy subs that can do what Metal Gear Rex can do, only more stealthy!

Again, Rule of Cool rules the MGS universe, regardless of how much or little sense it makes. It's just something to accept if you're going to get into the series.

Tbf, the first two metal gears (MG 1 and 2) were built by big boss' private army who most likely don't have the logistics to maintain a nuclear submarine. Metal Gears probably make more sense for smaller armies that can't maintain or man a nuclear sub effeciently and/or landlocked. Metal Gears may not be as stealthy but they are smaller.

Granted a country like the US probably won't see much benefit from a MG in a nuclear capacity.

 

[Erttheking]

It makes about as much sense as the arm of a dead guy being grafted onto an alive guy who was then possessed by the spirit of the dead guys arm

It says a lot about Metal Gear that the twist about the thing that sounds like total bullshit is that it actually was total bullshit.

 

[Dalisclock]

Tbf, the first two metal gears (MG 1 and 2) were built by big boss' private army who most likely don't have the logistics to maintain a nuclear submarine. Metal Gears probably make more sense for smaller armies that can't maintain or man a nuclear sub effeciently and/or landlocked. Metal Gears may not be as stealthy but they are smaller.

Granted a country like the US probably won't see much benefit from a MG in a nuclear capacity.

Pretty much. Kojima has heavily implied, if not outright stated, that the Metal Gear is a metaphor for nuclear proliferation, especially among smaller, previously non-nuclear powers. When you have a nuclear weapon/nuclear launch platform that can be easily moved and a small nation, PMC or terrorist group can own and deploy pretty much anywhere they want, the rules of MAD pretty much fly out the window. Bombers tend to require long runways, Submarines require specialized docking facilities(and access to the ocean) and a silo is a big, immobile investment. A metal gear can presumably be transported inside a cargo ship and kept hidden in a warehouse.

Ironically, to develop the damn thing in universe required a fuck ton of black money in the hands of the CIA/Philosophers/Cypher/Patriots using plans developed by Soviet Weapons Researchers and a fair bit to work to get it right. Peace Walker required a bunch of prototypes Huey helped build, not to mention the AI research Strangelove was doing while Snuffleupagus struggled with the idea of having it walk upright with a pilot inside.

It does raise the question why a major power would want to build one. Granin's interest in it seemed to be more "This sounds really cool" then anything else. Peace Walker was supposed to be the ultimate deterrent(a fail deadly nuclear retaliation method that can move around and will launch if it loses contact with home base). ZEKE was pretty much so Big Boss and MSF could be left alone to do their mercenary thing(especially since they'd pissed off both the USA and USSR before they built it). Snuffleupagus OTOH was built purely as a destabilizing element, but it was also built by Skullface with help from the Soviets(because reasons).

 

[Erttheking]

Tbf, the first two metal gears (MG 1 and 2) were built by big boss' private army who most likely don't have the logistics to maintain a nuclear submarine. Metal Gears probably make more sense for smaller armies that can't maintain or man a nuclear sub effeciently and/or landlocked. Metal Gears may not be as stealthy but they are smaller.

Granted a country like the US probably won't see much benefit from a MG in a nuclear capacity.

Pretty much. Kojima has heavily implied, if not outright stated, that the Metal Gear is a metaphor for nuclear proliferation, especially among smaller, previously non-nuclear powers. When you have a nuclear weapon/nuclear launch platform that can be easily moved and a small nation, PMC or terrorist group can own and deploy pretty much anywhere they want, the rules of MAD pretty much fly out the window. Bombers tend to require long runways, Submarines require specialized docking facilities(and access to the ocean) and a silo is a big, immobile investment. A metal gear can presumably be transported inside a cargo ship and kept hidden in a warehouse.

Ironically, to develop the damn thing in universe required a fuck ton of black money in the hands of the CIA/Philosophers/Cypher/Patriots using plans developed by Soviet Weapons Researchers and a fair bit to work to get it right. Peace Walker required a bunch of prototypes Huey helped build, not to mention the AI research Strangelove was doing while Snuffleupagus struggled with the idea of having it walk upright with a pilot inside.

It does raise the question why a major power would want to build one. Granin's interest in it seemed to be more "This sounds really cool" then anything else. Peace Walker was supposed to be the ultimate deterrent(a fail deadly nuclear retaliation method that can move around and will launch if it loses contact with home base). ZEKE was pretty much so Big Boss and MSF could be left alone to do their mercenary thing(especially since they'd pissed off both the USA and USSR before they built it). Snuffleupagus OTOH was built purely as a destabilizing element, but it was also built by Skullface with help from the Soviets(because reasons).

I'm pretty sure that was a case of a simple plot getting a massive franchise that overcomplicated and contradicted itself. It's why things get royally fucked when you view things in chronological order, where there were severalMetal Gears or Metal Gear expies that were more advanced than the OG Metal Gear, despite being built decades before it.

http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=050817

Because each game released tried to outdo the last one, regardless of how little sense it made.

 

[Dalisclock]

I'm pretty sure that was a case of a simple plot getting a massive franchise that overcomplicated and contradicted itself. It's why things get royally fucked when you view things in chronological order, where there were severalMetal Gears or Metal Gear expies that were more advanced than the OG Metal Gear, despite being built decades before it.

http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=050817

Because each game released tried to outdo the last one, regardless of how little sense it made.

Yeah, it really doesn't make much sense. The best Watsonian arguement is that once Snake canned Huey by tossing him off the side of mother base(which is really better then he deserved but MGS2 established he had to survive) is that building a Metal Gear like ZEKE was no longer possible and he didn't have the funds to replicate it(presumably the plans for ZEKE went down with Mother Base even if ZEKE was ironically still intact on the sea floor). Which is apparently is explained by kidnapping Dr. Madner in the first game or something like that.

Then again, Outer Heaven, for all it's talked about the later games, was essentially a couple of buildings in a desert and not nearly as impressive as either Mother Base and Snake's big showdown with Big Boss in MG2 was pretty much just him running around (while Big Boss shot at him) like crazy until he got a lighter and a can of spray paint, a far cry from the epic showndown people act like it was later on.

I imagine playing the series in chronological, rather then release, order would come across as really fucking weird. Especially when you went from Phantom Pain to Metal Gear in the middle.