Extra Punctuation: Not All Sequels Suck

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OtherSideofSky

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Jan 4, 2010
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Well, I guess it's time to look up Inform 7 and experiment with some text adventures. I've written a short one before in Jython, but the complexity that even that required made me despair of ever being able to have the time for something more complicated.
 
Sep 4, 2009
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Thanks muchly for the Inform 7 recommendation. I've been banging my head off a brick wall trying to learn programming for too long and doing a full time course isn't an option. This could be what I'm looking for : )
 

RIOgreatescapist

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"Another one was Resident Evil 4, the head-and-shoulders standout best of an otherwise TERRIBLY OVERRATED SERIES, and which featured the same protagonist as Resident Evil 2."

What a shame, yahtzee has indeed jumped the shark.
 

rankfx

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Jul 24, 2010
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I keep telling myself that as game development becomes more complicated and involved, the tools will have to get easier to use and it's only a matter of time before people with little knowledge of programming or rigging a skeleton can make a game. I think everyone (well at least most people on the escapist) would have had at least one idea for a game- it'd be cool if it were easier to make them without learning all the details of programming.

I think books are a good example- anyone could write a book if they applied themselves, so it's not really about who can afford to go and get the best education and then spend years working their way up the industry, it's about who has a good idea and has an understanding of the medium deep enough to make something worth reading.
 

rayen020

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i don't know that this should be titled not all sequels suck. it's more like "this is stuff i would have said during absense of punctuation but didn't have time".

still good aritcle and an interesting read. I so want a holodeck.
 

DanDeFool

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Aug 19, 2009
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Sylocat said:
Just the other day, I was dreaming of a game dev tool exactly like the one Yahtzee suggests. Even GameMaker is too programming-intensive for most people.
Would be nice if we had something like LabVIEW for game programming. Anyone who's worked in science or engineering has probably used it at some point; it's a graphical programming language for data acquisition and signal processing applications, mostly. You can write programs by moving function blocks around and wiring terminals together, and it assembles and compiles your result into C code.

I remember an ancient game-maker program called Klik n' Play, which was developed by Maxis. It had kind of the same premise, graphical programming interface and all, but wasn't nearly powerful enough to be a viable for present-day developers. It was pretty much just a game-making sandbox strictly for dicking-around purposes as opposed to serious game development.
 

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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You're overlooking other very tangible benefits to sequels:
1: Developers learn from developing, and can release a game, then release a sequel that improves on that game using what they learned from making the first one, and any other games along the way.

2: Developers can space out a game they couldn't afford to make otherwise so that they can use the first game to get financial backing to finish their stories.

3: If game A is good, and a sequel to game A (Let's call it game AA) is more of game A, then game AA is more good stuff.
 

pretzil

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Abe's Oddysee and Exodus were both 2D titles which mastered 2D graphics on the PS1 instead of jumping into ugly 3D, and I think Exodus may have been better than Oddysee.
 

Idocreating

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Not sure how they compare to SotN, but the three DS Castlevania games all seem to get a lot better in terms of how combat is done and sub-weapons upgraded.

Dawn of Sorrow: Sub Weapons are Souls. One is casted like a spell/ranged attack, another is an effect that is triggered and must be held and will continuously drain mana for an effect and the last is a passive benefit.

Souls are aquired from killing a creature. Sometimes it's soul will fly about the room and your character absorbs it. Now do that, for the most part, 8 more times to get the maximum power of that soul, whatever it's effect is. Combined with the fact that some souls are RIDICULOUSLY low drop chances, combined with mana being slow to regenerate, the game lacks a decent kind of flow for it's sub-weapon system.

Portrait of Ruin: System is tweaked, you control two characters. One being a Jonathan with various additional weapons or attacks as his sub-weapon, the other being Charlotte whose sub-weapons are her spells. These are aquired in more varied ways than the previous game, you can find certain ones in levels, buy certain ones in shops, as reward for quests.

Charlotte's spells are static and only scale in damage with your stats, but Jonathan's weapons must be mastered. Hitting an enemy with a sub-weapon and killing it will improve the mastery by 1. As you raise the mastery, the weapon does more damage and will grow in size and effect. It's a far better system than the chaotic randomness of Dawn of Sorrow, and certain sub-weapons for Jonathan are low on the mana side, which helps as mana is still an arse mechanic in the game as it still regenerates too slow.

Order of Ecclesia: Previous system of main attack and sub-weapons that use mana combined. The game now has two attack buttons and whatever abilty you've aquired can be mapped to it. Duel-wielding swords? Go for it. Sword and a Fireball? Sure! As long as you have the mana, you can attack away. Mana also restores itself incredibly quickly when you've not attacked for a second or two, allowing for strategic use of dodging and attacking.

The game calls it's system "Glyphs", glyphs are found in a similar way to the previous games, dropped from monsters at a rare rate, aquired from quests or progressing to story, just around in the world (Sometimes the glyph is making a hazard in a room that you must navigate to find the glyph and absorb it). Mastery is back, but is not limited to each glyph, but instead the element or effect the glyph has, be that Fire or Blunt (For hammers). This can lead to you developing one or two types of attack far above the others and having trouble when said attacks do next to no damage to a particular foe (Such as Holy damage to an Angel).

Overall, the combat system over these three games just evolves in a really great way, each time the developers think about ways to tweak and improve the way the player fights. With the slightly confusing dual-character gameplay of Portrait of Ruin (Having that second character out was more of a hiderance than help), they succeed in this aspect. And considering Order of Ecclesia could be hard as hell, it needed to improve the system too.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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But what if mainstream gaming took the Inform 7 approach? Create a deep, intuitive toolset designed for non-programmers that can let you create models, textures and game mechanics with dropdowns and a visual mouse-driven interface to as complex a level as the user desires, so that any lone developer, like ones who specialize more in aesthetics or story writing, can create a game that could then be sold in mainstream circles or over Steam to anyone who wants to look for it? Would that not spark the same creative renaissance in gaming that inexpensive digital cameras created in the film industry?
Although I am a programmer and enjoy coding, I would kill (something non-human) for this.

I used RPGMaker XP for a good while and although it's not THAT intuitive, it's not too complex, and once you understand how all the tools work, you can make some REALLY awesome stuff with just the pre-installed tools.

If I could have that, but for 3D graphics, and multiple styles of games...*drools* Yeah, that would kick serious ass.
 

ScottMcTony

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Jul 23, 2008
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Yahtzee Croshaw said:
But what if mainstream gaming took the Inform 7 approach? Create a deep, intuitive toolset designed for non-programmers that can let you create models, textures and game mechanics with dropdowns and a visual mouse-driven interface to as complex a level as the user desires, so that any lone developer, like ones who specialize more in aesthetics or story writing, can create a game that could then be sold in mainstream circles or over Steam to anyone who wants to look for it?
Sorry but reading this to me felt like reading a plea for a pen that would allow someone to draw a beautifully illustrated comic without knowing how to draw. That goes triply for BreakfastMan up there. Have you ever tried to make music? I don't mean a roughly recorded jam, I mean a properly mixed song. Have you ever tried to make a movie, even a short film? Mind, again, I don't mean an extremely amateur youtube video.
 

sievr

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
And just to annoy Yahtzee, Buffy (TV Series) beats Buffy (Movie).
The Buffy scenario isn't really a sequel. It's a reboot, which I think is more in line with what Yahtzee is saying is a better idea.
 

vxicepickxv

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Sep 28, 2008
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rankfx said:
I keep telling myself that as game development becomes more complicated and involved, the tools will have to get easier to use and it's only a matter of time before people with little knowledge of programming or rigging a skeleton can make a game. I think everyone (well at least most people on the escapist) would have had at least one idea for a game- it'd be cool if it were easier to make them without learning all the details of programming.

I think books are a good example- anyone could write a book if they applied themselves, so it's not really about who can afford to go and get the best education and then spend years working their way up the industry, it's about who has a good idea and has an understanding of the medium deep enough to make something worth reading.
I think you're almost there with the idea, but it takes more than just an idea and an understanding. I think it also takes ability and drive.

You have to have the ability to take your idea and understanding and be able to apply it as needed, as well as the drive to do it.

I have an idea that I think would be great, and I have an understanding of how the idea would work, but I have neither the ability to code it, nor the drive to really learn how. At this point, it's almost easier to hire people to do it for me.(It's not a book, so don't worry about that)


Someone mentioned Neverwinter Nights, and I'd like to mention that I've seen people code things that were considered beyond the scope of the game engine into the game, without using any .hak packs. That's what made it so interesting, is that it seems with the right knowledge and skills, you can go beyond preset limits.
 

smudgey

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May 8, 2008
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I'd pay good money for a program that let me make games without the technical knowledge currently required. I've got a bunch of ideas i'd love to bring to life.
 

smudgey

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ScottMcTony said:
Yahtzee Croshaw said:
But what if mainstream gaming took the Inform 7 approach? Create a deep, intuitive toolset designed for non-programmers that can let you create models, textures and game mechanics with dropdowns and a visual mouse-driven interface to as complex a level as the user desires, so that any lone developer, like ones who specialize more in aesthetics or story writing, can create a game that could then be sold in mainstream circles or over Steam to anyone who wants to look for it?
Sorry but reading this to me felt like reading a plea for a pen that would allow someone to draw a beautifully illustrated comic without knowing how to draw. That goes triply for BreakfastMan up there. Have you ever tried to make music? I don't mean a roughly recorded jam, I mean a properly mixed song. Have you ever tried to make a movie, even a short film? Mind, again, I don't mean an extremely amateur youtube video.
I think it's a fair call to ask for something to make the process of actually realizing an idea a little easier. I fancy myself as an amateur muso, and know just how hard it can be to write, record and fine-tune a song, and actually come out with something that's listenable. And while stuff like Music 2000 for the Playstation and even Mario Paint let users dabble around a bit and enjoy creating without too much knowledge, it still took a bit of talent to make something that was actually good. All people are asking for is the ability to dabble.
 

ScottMcTony

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Jul 23, 2008
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smudgey said:
ScottMcTony said:
Yahtzee Croshaw said:
But what if mainstream gaming took the Inform 7 approach? Create a deep, intuitive toolset designed for non-programmers that can let you create models, textures and game mechanics with dropdowns and a visual mouse-driven interface to as complex a level as the user desires, so that any lone developer, like ones who specialize more in aesthetics or story writing, can create a game that could then be sold in mainstream circles or over Steam to anyone who wants to look for it?
Sorry but reading this to me felt like reading a plea for a pen that would allow someone to draw a beautifully illustrated comic without knowing how to draw. That goes triply for BreakfastMan up there. Have you ever tried to make music? I don't mean a roughly recorded jam, I mean a properly mixed song. Have you ever tried to make a movie, even a short film? Mind, again, I don't mean an extremely amateur youtube video.
I think it's a fair call to ask for something to make the process of actually realizing an idea a little easier. I fancy myself as an amateur muso, and know just how hard it can be to write, record and fine-tune a song, and actually come out with something that's listenable. And while stuff like Music 2000 for the Playstation and even Mario Paint let users dabble around a bit and enjoy creating without too much knowledge, it still took a bit of talent to make something that was actually good. All people are asking for is the ability to dabble.
A little easier is good. Well, any amount easier is ideally good, and I apologize if I sounded like I was suggesting things should be hard in some eletist way. But unlike a lot easier, a little easier is possible and constantly happening. As someone who fancies themself both an amateur comic artist and game designer I can say I'm happy I live in a time when Corel Painter 12 and Photoshop CS5 exist, as well as Game Maker and Unity, rather than only C++ or even Assembly for games and, well, pencils for art. Although for anything complex, in pretty much any field, a degree of technical knowledge and ability will always be required, I imagine. And I know Yahtzee was pretty much just dreaming, but the other dude sounded almost outright dismissive of the idea that other mediums require anything besides creativity, which is insulting, and also seemed to think such a toolset was actually feasible.
 
Nov 12, 2010
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Yes, programming is still the greatest bottleneck in game development. I do know (studying C++ at the moment, know a little LISP-based SCHEME as well - certainly not a language for game devs) how much time and effort it takes in comparison to all the other aspects of game development, even if you're using a stock engine. I wish such a tool would exist, it sure would've made a lot of lives easier.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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TheOneandOnly said:
Apologies for the giant quote, but...

The "toolset designed for non-programmers" which Yahtzee describes sounds rather like the Unreal Development Kit, which I fear is destined to do more harm than good. In his Little Big Planet review, Yahtzee made the point that the average person playing the game is not a creative genius who can make a fantastic level just because they have the right tools at their disposal. Game development has long been somewhat elitist, there being relatively few people capable of making anything noteworthy out of the millions of people with access to current tools and hardware. Personally I feel this is how it should remain. Once you start making it "easy" to make games, you open the flood gates to the talentless hoards who want their five minutes of fame, and devalue the development process of all games.

In metaphorical terms, if you want to build a bridge, hire the trained engineer, not the guy with the DIY toolset who works at the scrap metal yard...
I do not really agree with this notion. At least not entirely.

One of the fundamental problems with any task that involves programming is not that someone is capable of designing an algorithm but rather simply implementing the algorithm. The same is generally true of video games. It is often said that there is literally no shortage of ideas for games (thus why no game company ever actually wants to hear a random fan's idea; they have plenty of their own to work with). Most people who visit this board have, at least in some idle moment, prototyped some system for some theoretical game in our minds and yet most of us have done nothing else to see the idea implemented in any way.

A significant part of the problem, it would seem, lies in the fact that the effort required to do this by someone completely ignorant of any relevant skills is almost incomprehensibly enormous. Further lowering the basic requirements of making any game, even a bad one, would almost certainly encourage the development of a host of bad games but the potential benefits would dramatically outweigh these problems. Starting at the most obvious, even if most of these games are terrible, at least some small portion of them would be good and some subset of those could even be great. Beyond that, simply making it easier to make a game would have enormous benefits for the professional industry at large; escalating costs of making games is an area of enormous concern and is often cited as a key reason why the industry is so often risk adverse.

But the real problem I have is simply that the fundamental assertion you made was deeply flawed. The construction of a bridge has real consequences; when lives are at stake it is generally considered wise to hire an experienced professional rather than an eager amateur. Few lives hinge on the quality of any particular game, especially when they are made as amateur projects. Even with the barrier of entry as low as it currently stands we still find that the vast majority of games made (by all games I mean everything from 30 million dollar AAA titles to the countless thousands of flash games and so forth) are, quite simply, bad. Yet, somehow, we all manage to spend our time playing games we like rather than floundering through endless masses of awful or simply mediocre games.

What's more, the assertion dismisses the fact that a great many games beloved by millions began their lives as the work of enthusiastic amateurs. The professionals that dominate the industry today ALL began as enthusiastic amateurs. If you want to know what such people can accomplish, look at things like Counter Strike or Team Fortress or Portal Killing Floor. Each of these games began their lives as the free work of amateurs and hobbyists. Among that list are countless titles worthy of playing made by various independent developers. Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress are but two in that lengthy list and both have made quite an impact on this community.