"Fair" gaming

[Nutcase]

All I could ever want to say is in this: read it. Please.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

Ah, I've read it before.

I'd have to specify that I don't view "cheap" as synonymous with "unfair". This guy has some extremities, for one; his view on fun is something along the lines of 'winning is the ONLY way to have fun'. There are several ways to win, and some ways are more fun than others.

That is a misunderstanding. Playing to win means playing as hard as you can and seeking to improve your game. The fun is not contingent on winning. You can have fun playing to win against a superior opponent while losing every time.

And nowhere does Sirlin claim PTW is the only way to have fun with a game. Just that it's one way.

 

[feather240]

All I could ever want to say is in this: read it. Please.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

dang it beat me to it...

All is okay. Cheap weapons don't exist in any games. If it is unfair (glitches, god mode, snipers with unlimited ammo starting on top of a hill protected by mine fields.) than it is the fault of the developers. It wouldn't be as much as a problem if people didn't look for glitches and hacks...

(By the way I hate hackers and glitchers with unbelievable fury. I think that they should all die, seriously.

 

[Enai Siaion]

Of course people look for glitches. People want to win. If the game lets them pull stunts like that to win, the game is garbage. Sorry.

And if you're not playing to win, you're not playing by the rules, like some guy playing chess just to arrange the pieces on the board in an artistic way.

 

[feather240]

Of course people look for glitches. People want to win. If the game lets them pull stunts like that to win, the game is garbage. Sorry.

And if you're not playing to win, you're not playing by the rules, like some guy playing chess just to arrange the pieces on the board in an artistic way.

If you can't do it in a tournament it probably isn't okay. You know because it isn't ethical. It's like kicking an enemy in the shin and shooting them well they freak out. Yes, you can, but EVERYONE thinks you're a cheater for doing it, even those who also cheat. The developers try not to have glitches. That's why they take them out. You can't counter glitches or hacks unless you also do it. There's no strategy it's just who hacks the most. (Ironically game hacker sites have their hacks stolen or pirated.

Edit: Fixed last sentence!

 

[w-Jinksy]

I am normally find snipers insulting as they would rather stay hidden in a bush than come towards me and fight with honour, even spys have to have balls enough to come and attack you.

Also people who glitch and get things like powershots and go out of maps, if their on my team i just feel ashamed to be on a team where they have to resort to manipulating the game engine to win.

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

I've mentioned this in many threads already, but I consider camping to be the ultimate in cowardly, no-skill gaming strategies. You know who I'm talking about. The guy sitting in the corner in CoD4 with a Shotgun and Claymores setup on the wall, just waiting for some more skilled player to walk by so he can have a free kill before he's torn apart by people much better than him at the game.

If that paragraph sounded like I'm angry, it's because those people almost single-handedly ruin online FPS for me. There is no honor, no strategy, and most importantly no SKILL in that type of gameplay.

 

[Hollock]

my beloved shotgun. There was nothing more satysfying when you're playing against someone with a microphone and they know that I'm gonna get them. It's like a slasher movie i remeber Call of duty 3 just one of my favorite moment ever playing a game this guy was fucking scared of me.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Hmmm look my deffintion in who is a "noob" realy depends on how the rack in there kills. Lets use halo 3 for an example. Lets say Jimmy scores 6 points, all with rockets and lets say James scored 6 kills: 2 with sticky grenades and 4 with BR. Even though they both came up with the same score I would call Jimmy a noob because all his kills where with a one hit kill weapon. While BR's and Stickys takes alot of practise to become good with, any idoit can grab a rocket launcher and get an easy four kills. It is no coincidence that all new/inexpierenced players favourite weapons are either Sword, Rockets, or Shotgun.



On another note though, is Unreal any good? I've always wanted to try it but I never bothered.

 

[Proteus214]

If you can do it, it's fair.
If you can't get around it, you are getting outplayed, change your play (adapt).
If that doesn't work, something is wrong, stop playing (someone's cheating or the game is broken).

I honestly don't think it's unfair unless you are intentionally doing something malicious.

 

[FallenJellyDoughnut]

I think semi auto snipers are preety damn cheep. the way I see it, if you cant get a headshot (WITHOUT using aimbot) then why are you using a sniper. i always go for a Bolt Action sniper, because I aim for the head.

I dont know any game that has this (except the Resistance 2 Campain) But anything that is invisible and can get 1 hit kills annoys the hell out of me, I'm looking at you you god damned chameleons.

Resistance 2 has flaws! :O Seriously, Resist2 was shit just like the first one.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

All I could ever want to say is in this: read it. Please.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

This will probably make me a "scrub", but I found this article very...ignorant. Maybe I'm not just a serious gamer. But like, shure you may win with unbreakable combo's, or throwing the guy every time he gets within arms length, but where is the fun in that? Is his self esteem so low that he has to resort to win every game to feel good about himself? I think my example is Hero rushing in Halo Wars. Shure you will win every game, and shure the experts have their counters to this tactic, but is it realy worth it? Is a 5 minute win realy more fun than an hour and a half epic duel, involving clever tactics and plans, that you lost? Honnestly?

EDIT: Winning isn't everything I find.

 

[CMon]

That is a misunderstanding. Playing to win means playing as hard as you can and seeking to improve your game. The fun is not contingent on winning. You can have fun playing to win against a superior opponent while losing every time.

And nowhere does Sirlin claim PTW is the only way to have fun with a game. Just that it's one way.

He does claim that people who shun certain tactics because they find them less entertaining are "scrubs", does he not? In other words, they're some 'lower' form of gamers and I'm not sure how to interpret that otherwise.

 

[Kiutu]

Glitches is automatically and (hopefully) without question unfair. And though I try to avoid it, there ARE unfair weapons/characters. Marvel vs Capcom is an easy reference. Juggernaught should be all I have to say.
Ofcourse, some are just quick to complain, but to think that its impossible for a weapon to be in itself unfair is not really a good thing.
Though only glitching and outright cheating will make me hate you and perhaps do some complaing filing, people SHOULD keep in mind that not all weapons are truly fair.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Ya I agree. Like I shun alot of tactis that could rake me in more wins: Camping, Rushing, playing as Anders, bridgeing, HLG, ect....Like what I dont get is, why does trying to maximize my fun make me a scrub? Do all the high level players who will do anything to win realy hate the game and themselves?

 

[Animated Rope]

I'm very flexible. If you can do it in game, that's fair game. If the community develop certain codes that makes the game smoother(like no dry-looting in certain mmo's), that's okay for me and I will probably tag along with it. If someone breaks the made-up code, that's completely fine too because it's a game. "It's a game" is a very common cliche, but this time I mean in the way that anything that happens in the game I will not take personally.

If someone do mean things(that may or may not break unwritten rules) to people in-game it will eventually mean everyone else will return him/her the favour. I hope people will learn to so only in-game though, no point cursing their name and parents over it even if it's annoying you.

Though I have little understanding, and thus respect, for the banning of certain weapons or strategies just because people use them to beat you. If there is something wrong with the game like spawncamping or unbalanced weapons, I blame the game and not the people.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

No its not that we disreagard certain strategies cause they beat us, its because its not overly fun...like playing for three minutes and then having a fully upgraded prophet attack your base realy does suck...thats hardly enough time to prepare your counter.

 

[Animated Rope]

Well, I wasn't referring to ALL bans, it's just that I attended a LAN where someone tried to ban shotguns, after one player got a little too good using it. And that was after banning two other weapons that the same person kept using. ^_^

 

[YuheJi]

something being "cheap" is irrelevant.
if it IS PART OF THE GAME, then grow a pair and learn how to overcome it.
Calling somebody "noob,nublet,nub-muffin" or any other variant of the word is simply the most "nooby" thing you can do, if you really consider yourself good in any sense of the word then you should have no problem getting rid of somebody so "nooby" regardless of what weapon they are using or weather or not they are sitting in the same corner every time.

What about spawn camping? I recall playing Day of Defeat, and sometimes a guy would be out of the sight of the spawn protect, but would be able to see people that spawned, and killed people as they came out. It took him some skill to get to his spot, as the spawn protect normally kills anyone that gets close. Do you think because that is part of the game, then it should be allowed?

 

[CompanionCube]

Hmmm look my deffintion in who is a "noob" realy depends on how the rack in there kills. Lets use halo 3 for an example. Lets say Jimmy scores 6 points, all with rockets and lets say James scored 6 kills: 2 with sticky grenades and 4 with BR. Even though they both came up with the same score I would call Jimmy a noob because all his kills where with a one hit kill weapon. While BR's and Stickys takes alot of practise to become good with, any idoit can grab a rocket launcher and get an easy four kills. It is no coincidence that all new/inexpierenced players favourite weapons are either Sword, Rockets, or Shotgun.

I think you should learn to work around this. If he is constantly going for the rockets, camp the rockets. Rockets from long range are useless. I used to hate Pyro's (still do) in TF2 as a Scout. I learned to back away and weapon heckle them. While I do agree that some tactics are considered unfair, I won't harp on it. I believe a player's skill is based on their adaptability.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

I've mentioned this in many threads already, but I consider camping to be the ultimate in cowardly, no-skill gaming strategies. You know who I'm talking about. The guy sitting in the corner in CoD4 with a Shotgun and Claymores setup on the wall, just waiting for some more skilled player to walk by so he can have a free kill before he's torn apart by people much better than him at the game.

If that paragraph sounded like I'm angry, it's because those people almost single-handedly ruin online FPS for me. There is no honor, no strategy, and most importantly no SKILL in that type of gameplay.

I would counter your argument by pointing out that the camper has taken the time and effort to get the necessary weapons and set up in the location in order to achieve the title of 'camper', and that does require some skill. This is doubly true if he kills you repeatedly in the same location, because it means you can't figure out how to chase him out of there. Basically, anyone claiming a tactic or weapon is 'unfair' just hasn't figured out a way to deal with said thing. Some guns are more powerful than others, but it doesn't mean you cannot use them as well. First one to the uber weapon gets to use it.