Fallout 4 and Paid Mods

[Xyebane]

This is pure conjecture but I think Fallout 4 will be Valve and Bethesda's next attempt at paid mods. Neither Valve nor Bethesda said that the idea was a mistake, only that they shouldn't have done it with a game with an existing mod community to begin. Also, Bethesda has been pretty tight lipped with modding and FO4, saying they aren't going to talk about it until after it's release.

Do you think they are worried that if they announced paid mods for FO4 it would hurt their pre-orders? Would the inclusion of paid mods influence you for or against buying FO4? Do you think Valve and Bethesda will introduce paid mods at all for FO4 and if so, do you think they will do things any differently than they did for Skyrim (% cut, mod ownership concerns, etc)?

 

[Barbas]

They'd have to announce their intention and talk to the series' most dedicated modders first; just going ahead and doing it without telling people would be another clusterflux. A repeat of the Skyrim situation would be a big needle-nardle-noo.

 

[votemarvel]

I don't see the issue with paid mods. It's the same as official DLC, don't want it then don't buy it.

The people who want to give their work away will still be able to do so, those who want to make a little money for their time and effort can if they so choose.

 

[Tayh]

I think it's definitely on the horizon for Fallout 4.
I'm more interested in knowing if they're going to allow non-steamwork mods, and for how long.

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

Bethesda will probably get about the same reaction from Fallout's mod community as they did from TES' mod community if they tried to do paid mods again. It's not quite the size of TES' mod community, but the Fallout mod community is large and very well established.

Sticking their noses into an already well-established mod community is just a recipe for disaster, and they deserve any damage done if they are stupid enough to not learn their lesson from last time.

I'm not against paid mods, I'm against developers destroying their thriving gaming communities for a quick buck. If you want paid mods, you have to start a community from scratch, like Valve did for TF2, CS:GO, and Dota.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

I'm more interested in knowing if they're going to allow non-steamwork mods, and for how long.

This is my real interest. The moment they monopolise mods to Steam only, cutting out the Nexus etc. Bethesda's modding community will be irreparably damaged.

The modding community around Fallout/Elder Scrolls is probably the largest and has the lowest barrier to entry than any other game (Except perhaps Minecraft). I've had a few other games that I've modded, and I've looked on a few of the other Nexus games, none of them have anywhere near the modding community that Fallout and the Elder Scrolls enjoy, but I think that introducing paid modding and especially limiting it to Steam Workshop only will really damage that free flowing ability of people to collaborate and contruct mods, and reinforce the limits of what mods can do.

I really don't want paid mods in Fallout 4, but judging by Bethesda and Valve's actions it's pretty much inevitable, which is a real shame.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Admittedly, I'd cancel my plans to make Fallout 4 a day-1 purchase if I knew for a fact it was going to be another attempt at paid mods. I'd still buy the game eventually... but probably not until it's a cheap GOTY edition or a 50%+ Steam Sale item. If they're going to make me pay for mods, I'm going to pay for them with the money I saved by not buying the game full price.

I've got plenty of other games coming up to play. Hell, Fallout 4 isn't even the first game I was planning to play on November 10th. I figured StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void will probably be the shorter game, and the one less likely to need emergency patching to fix some kind of game-breaking bug that kills save files.

 

[Windcaler]

Ive kind of had a feeling that Fallout 4 might be the release of paid mods all over again. Im coming at this issue from a modders perspective as well. Fallout 4 is whats going to get me back into modding since my long hiatus years ago when I was a pretty active modder in Morrowind. I did a little bit in skyrim as well but I either never finished those mods or never felt they were good enough to release to the public (I have my own personal quality standards there). Dont get me wrong either, Ive never made massive quest mods or anything like that. I mostly just made house mods because it was something I enjoyed and something Ive wanted to get back into for awhile.

All that said I still have mixed feelings about the whole paid mods thing. I wholeheartedly believe that modders should get compensated for our work. Notice I said compensated, not paid. Compensation for ones work can take many forms and what is acceptable compensation can vary from person to person. For me, someone just saying they liked my house in Dagon Fel was enough for me. It brought a smile to my face and made me feel good about myself because I made something that someone else enjoyed. However Im sure other modders will think monetary gain is the only compensation worth it for them and I dont think theyre wrong for having that opinion.

My major issue with paid mods the last time was that 75% of the cut was divided up to people who were not involved in the development of said mod. As I understand it 25% was supposed to go to the modder (you know, the person who did all the work), 5% was supposed to go to the nexus to help support them and as a thank you, Bethesda was supposed to get 20%, and valve (who keep in mind did zero% of the work) was supposed to get 50% of each sold mod. Frankly, thats a level of stupid that I thought only capable from out of touch executives like the ones in Activision, EA, or Ubisoft. I get that valve wants more revenue coming in but if they must have a cut make it appropriate to the amount of work theyve done (and lets be honest here all valve is doing with these mods is they are the librarian who knows where to find them, thats not worth much). I would be ok with valve taking a 5-10% cut. I would even be ok with Bethesda and the nexus getting a piece of the pie, just not the majority of the pie. That whole 75% cut thing made valve look like a bunch of greedy executives who had no respect for the modders that do all the work but should paid mods come out again I hope they'll change their attitude.

Then theres the mod users who were essentially told "hey you know those awesome things you got for free and spiced up those games you love so they didnt keep getting repetitive or outright fixed stuff we left broken and refused to patch? You have to pay for those now! Get out your wallets!" That was wrong from the get go. Everyone who does paid mods needs to do mods that are worth money. Skyrim mods like Falskar, The gray crown of nocturnal, Molag Bal's inferno, and the Forgotten city (all massive DLC like mods that frankly put Bethesda's DLC to shame) are worth money IMO.

Ultimately this is a multifaceted issue that isnt going to ever be right for everyone but at the very least I think we can find some common ground between modders, mod users, developers, and the increasingly greedy portion of valve.

 

[DEAD34345]

I don't see the issue with paid mods. It's the same as official DLC, don't want it then don't buy it.

The people who want to give their work away will still be able to do so, those who want to make a little money for their time and effort can if they so choose.

Um... But they tried it, it was instantly chaos. This isn't conjecture, within moments of paid mods being a thing free mods were being withdrawn and re-uploaded for fees, modders were going into all out wars with one another over who was owed what money with mods with complicated dependency chains, and others were straight up ripping parts of other mods straight out to resell as compilations.

You can believe that paid mods are a good idea, and that they're worth it if you want, but we've seen that it isn't as simple as "don't want it then don't buy it", and that there are upsides and downsides. If you don't see any issues at all, then you simply haven't looked.

OT: ... God, I hope not.

 

[votemarvel]

Um... But they tried it, it was instantly chaos. This isn't conjecture, within moments of paid mods being a thing free mods were being withdrawn and re-uploaded for fees, modders were going into all out wars with one another over who was owed what money with mods with complicated dependency chains, and others were straight up ripping parts of other mods straight out to resell as compilations.

You can believe that paid mods are a good idea, and that they're worth it if you want, but we've seen that it isn't as simple as "don't want it then don't buy it", and that there are upsides and downsides. If you don't see any issues at all, then you simply haven't looked.

OT: ... God, I hope not.

But it is that simple. If you don't think something is worth the money then don't pay for it.

Why shouldn't a modder start charging for a piece of work that they previously released for free? They put in the work and they should get to decide if they want to monetise it.

The only issues I had was the split between publisher and modder. The split should have been flipped completely in the favour of the modder. Other than that the one you mention, taking other people's content to sell as your own. To be honest that last point is something I hate in free mods as well, I find it highly annoying to find a mod I like only to discover I need to download eight others in order to get it to work.

It isn't even as if modding communities will vanish. Just look at what they've managed with difficult to mod games such as Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition.

For me if people develop content of their own then they get to decide if they want to charge for it. People shouldn't try and stop them just because 'mods have always been free.'

 

[karloss01]

There shouldn't be paid mods in the first place. If modders like to see some income each mod page should have a tip jar so people who like the mods can support their favourite modders.

 

[Ironman126]

But it is that simple. If you don't think something is worth the money then don't pay for it.

Why shouldn't a modder start charging for a piece of work that they previously released for free? They put in the work and they should get to decide if they want to monetise it.

The only issues I had was the split between publisher and modder. The split should have been flipped completely in the favour of the modder. Other than that the one you mention, taking other people's content to sell as your own. To be honest that last point is something I hate in free mods as well, I find it highly annoying to find a mod I like only to discover I need to download eight others in order to get it to work.

It isn't even as if modding communities will vanish. Just look at what they've managed with difficult to mod games such as Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition.

For me if people develop content of their own then they get to decide if they want to charge for it. People shouldn't try and stop them just because 'mods have always been free.'

Clearly you missed the part of Lunncal's response that explained the absolute and unrelenting pandemonium that ensued because of the dependency almost every large mod has on other mods. It isn't one person making one mod. It's one person making one part of one mod, which is then (potentially) used to make an even more complex mod.

There is no system in place for dealing with the dependency chains that mods have. If you go to the Nexus and look at any of the top mods for Skyrim, Fallout: NV, Fallout 3, or Oblivion, all of them cite the resources from other mods that were used. What we have is multiple people making multiple mods that all share components from yet more mods.

So when you say person-x gets 5 dollars for selling mod-x, chances are pretty close to 100% that the mod he's selling isn't solely his work. It uses resources from persons w, y, and z's mods and those people aren't getting a dime for their work. This leaves two options for the people not getting paid: don't let people use your resources for paid mods (which is unenforceable) or don't make mods at all. Why should the other people not get any money despite having put in considerable work on the resources another mod uses?

That is the main problem with paid mods. Everyone who deserves credit and money will probably never see any credit or money because their mods are only used as resources for other mods.

 

[BoogieManFL]

I read that they specifically said they had no plans for paid mods in Fallout 4.

I can't imagine them sneaking it in later, the backlash would be bad just like it was before. It probably won't happen until they announce it before the release of the game it is associated with.

 

[DEAD34345]

-snip-

But it is that simple. If you don't think something is worth the money then don't pay for it.

Why shouldn't a modder start charging for a piece of work that they previously released for free? They put in the work and they should get to decide if they want to monetise it.

The only issues I had was the split between publisher and modder. The split should have been flipped completely in the favour of the modder. Other than that the one you mention, taking other people's content to sell as your own. To be honest that last point is something I hate in free mods as well, I find it highly annoying to find a mod I like only to discover I need to download eight others in order to get it to work.

It isn't even as if modding communities will vanish. Just look at what they've managed with difficult to mod games such as Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition.

For me if people develop content of their own then they get to decide if they want to charge for it. People shouldn't try and stop them just because 'mods have always been free.'

Ok, but what you're saying here is a far cry from your original post I was responding to. You say "But it is that simple", and then go on to explain your views on a few of the (many) ways it really isn't "that simple".

It's not a simple problem. Implementing paid mods will do far more than just enable some modders to earn some money for their work, it will also totally change how the modding scene will operate, and also what mods can and will be created. The current system in which mods are ripped apart and shared and extended freely cannot exist with a paid system, because in the current system true ownership of a mod (and thus who would be owed money) is completely undefinable, as almost every mod is actually made up of work and content from many other mods, each of which will have taken content from still further mods, and so on potentially forever.

That situation is fine now because no money is being thrown around, so it's a non-issue. As soon as money is introduced, defining ownership becomes a serious problem, and those mods with complicated dependencies either won't be created at all or will be created anyway, causing all sorts of legal issues and drama for everyone involved.

You may be OK with that, you may even think that the resulting new modding scene will be better than what we have now, or that it's worth it to allow people to profit from mods. You cannot argue that these aren't issues at all, though[footnote]Ok, technically you can argue what you want, but you'll be wrong.[/footnote].

Edit: Actually, I think Ironman126's post above explains my point better. Read that for a better understanding.

 

[Estarc]

I believe I read somewhere that Bethesda already said the mods will be free. There is the clusterfuck that would be trying to charge for mods on console to consider for one. Think the backlash last time concerned them as well. I do hope that if they decide to try paid mods again though that it is announced nice and early. Preferably before they release the creation kit, definitely no later than its release day. They need to get out in front of it next time. The biggest problem with Skyrim was it was an entrenched community with hundreds of mods that = required other mods or used them as resources etc. Starting with a fresh game would be easier.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I read that they specifically said they had no plans for paid mods in Fallout 4.

I can't imagine them sneaking it in later, the backlash would be bad just like it was before. It probably won't happen until they announce it before the release of the game it is associated with.

Not doubting you, but I'd like to see where you read this. If only for reassurance.

OT:

I'm in the camp of thinking that mod creators do enough work to justify compensation. I am however completely against the way they planned on dividing up the profits. Paying mod creators for their work is fine. Paying bethesda or steam while having no active role in the making of the mods is unpleasant but expected (Bethesda own the game and Steam own the platform this is being pushed on).

However, paying the lions share to them over the person who's done the work? Fuck off. I'm sure you'd love to sit on your arses and reap the benefits off of other folks labor, but that will not and should not fly.

Depending on initial reviews, I'll decide whether to buy Fallout 4 or not. The previous games gave me enough pleasure unmodded to justify the cost, mods were just a long term bonus. But if Bethesda keeps pushing this at the expense of the creators and the consumers, then I'm done. I can live without Bethesda just as easily I can live with Ubisoft, Activision and EA. There are still enough great games coming out annually that I'm never stuck for wanting.

 

[bdeamon]

I would pay for mods if they port the particularly good ones to consoles through dlc, but from what I understand mods are coming to xbox 1 anyway. I have a ps4 though, so I guess I'll just try to enjoy the game.

 

[Loonyyy]

I hope they do.

The amount of bitter, nasty rubbish I've read in response to the paid mods stuff targetting modders, and the idea of them getting paid at all, as opposed to Bethesda and Valve's terrible implementation of it was pathetic, and the Fallout 4 hype train is seemingly powered by SCRAMjets. So I'd like to see those two collide and watch everything burn.

Not exactly a noble motivation, but some men just want to watch the world burn.

I don't think they will, but if they did, it's not going to stop Fallout 4. It's a mainstream success, already, with the preorders and the Pip Boy edition and all that.

 

[MHR]

They're not talking about it now because it would hurt pre-orders. They're going to talk about it a few days right after release, because by then everybody will have been stuck already having paid for the game, and the Steam 2-hour refund policy will have shut out everyone by then.

Yes, it's going to be exactly that cynical. They're going to trick us into buying into this game with paid fucking mods. I'm not against the idea of modders actually getting paid for the good work they do. I just know for a fact it's going to mean rampant horse-armor exploitation and other cynical bullshit. You all know this to be true.

Fucking excuse me if I don't want to be sold horse armor, get extorted for fundamental fixes to the broken base game I had already bought, and have a proud PC tradition corrupted all at the same fucking time.

It's not fair.

It's not right.

 

[Chaosian]

How has this gotten to post 20 and nobody mentioned the EULA?

http://techraptor.net/content/fallout-4s-eula-says-mods-must-remain-free

As I understand it, that's a pretty definitive "no" for the time being.