Fallout 4 Xbox One Mods "Stolen" From PC Modders

[Strazdas]

wow this was slow. took 5 days for this to reach escapist.

Console peasants are responsible for teh piracy!!1!

Seriously though, Bethesda.net allows people to charge for their mods?

Not yet, but that wasnt why the guy did it. Here is the guys motivation:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cj8eamAWgAAeF4y.jpg:large

Seriously, if the mods work, what is the point of holding them back from Xbox?

If the modder does not have an Xbox he has no way of knowing whether the mod works or not and does not wnat to release a broken product?

Why should a 'toxic vocal minority' keep the rest of the sane people who want good mods on their console from getting them? 'One bad apple ruins the bunch' logic doesn't work when it comes to things that occur over the internet, since anyone could send a 'death threat' to anyone else while pretending to be from a group that their 'victim' supposedly has reason to dislike. The PC modders themselves could just as easily be sending the death threats themselves in order to justify themselves.

If the mods work perfectly well on consoles, then they should very well upload them given Bethesda's desire to reach a certain sort of parity in experience on console and PC. Mods that require KB + M support specifically for their functionality or mods that act as hardware strainers in order to achieve some graphical advantage are understandably absent, but simple cosmetic changes and potentially useful gameplay changes are so trivial that preventing anyone from using them is just asking for someone else to give it out first, and that's a fact. Leave it to PC gamers to find a way to turn their 'fuck you got mine' attitude into a victim status.

exept on consoles the toxic ones is a majority. Compare bethesda.net comment section for PC vs console. PC - 99% of comments are nice/neutral. Xbox - 99% of comments sound like they want to kill the mod author.

The mod creator has absolutely no obligation to bethesda or its desires. Experience will NEVER be the same on console and PC as long as PC modders can fix problems that consolitis causes.

Btw, most gameplay changing mods require script extension to function (altrough betheda gave us more choices without the extender with fallout than with skyrim) so they wont function by default.

Also really you think someone stealing a mod is ok because it fights against some imagined pc elitism?

Yeah yeah, it's not right to take something without somebody's permission, whatever. The question is, why wouldn't they give permission? It's a fuckin' mod. If a mod can work on a console why wouldn't they let console gamers enjoy the freakin' mod as well? This tribal mentality and delusions of superiority that some PC gamers have is pathetic.

Not to mention that porting a fuckin' mod is not some kind of copyright infringement. Modders don't actually have any rights to their mods. It's just tradition and a sense of decency that usually prevents people from stealing mods.

This is purely Bethesda's good will to treat modders as original content creators with actual rights to their mods. But legally those rights don't exist. And where's the sense of decency in not allowing your mods to be used by console gamers just because you think they're somehow inferior to you? Fuck those guys.

Noone asked them for permission to begin with, so they didnt have a choice to give or deny permission.

Secondly, when i make mods i post them to websites i want them posted and i dont want them posted on other websites. Bethesda.net is one of those websites i dont want my mods posted.

Thirdly, Modders have copyright on any code or assets they have created and do own their mods. Noone, not even bethesda has a right to take and use them without permission.

No, fuck the guys that think stealing is ok and that think people dont have rights to their creation.

Here's the trick. You really can't steal something that never belonged to you. That's the pisser.. Modders are technically making illegal use of someone else's IP and creation kit.

good thing then that mods are copyrighted work of their authors.

If you're really upset that your mods are on console and you don't want them on there to spite console gamers, well, you kinda lost the right to complain at that point. If it's cause of QA or a lack of experience with xbox I won't blame you.

No, he has every right to complain, take it down and even get legal compensation for the theft commited.

Where's the line though?

To use an already supplied example, if you make a blue box with the public toolset, then say "people who own orange shoes can't play with my blue box."
Then I come along and go gee, I like the blue box though. The tools are available so I create the same blue box and say "anyone can use this blue box!".
Some time later you decide the blue box was your idea and dmca my blue box.

Yes, obviously not everyone is recreating mods and there are heaps of reuploads. But if you create a mod with a public tool set but only for group a, do you really get to control that idea? Because that's the eventual path of dmcas.

So, where's the line?

The line is you dont go and steal the blue box and then claim its your own.

Here's the thing. In my scenario, the changes are only going to be under the hood. If I've seen a mod which isn't available on my platform, I'm going to do my best to re-create it as exactly as I can.

So it will be close to identical.

then your example has nothing to do with this topic.

 

[Elijin]

Except it does have to do with this topic. Because once people start taking down mods because they feel like they're stolen, then you head down a path where they're flagging everything that looks like the mod they made. Because as we've all said creators aren't being credited, and the likely reporters aren't the authors, but others who are acting on their behalf due to platform separation.

So yes, its entirely valid to ask where the line is when you're embarking down a road which can be summed up as 'Issuing takedowns to mods which look like they're mine, because some people are stealing my mod in response to my refusal (valid or otherwise) to support this platform.'

 

[nickpy]

Thirdly, Modders have copyright on any code or assets they have created and do own their mods. Noone, not even bethesda has a right to take and use them without permission.

Whilst generally I agree with your post, I must take issue with the quoted point. As discussed in my first post in this thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.939158.23678893], Bethesda does actually have rights to do as they wish with your mod, as you grant them that right via the Creation Kit EULA. However, its not an issue here because its not Bethesda uploading these mods.

 

[Nazulu]

If you're really upset that your mods are on console and you don't want them on there to spite console gamers, well, you kinda lost the right to complain at that point. If it's cause of QA or a lack of experience with xbox I won't blame you.

Yeah, I'm sure that's telling them. "Sorry creators, but if I deem that your work should be used in this way, then I'm gonna do it!"

They won't just complain, they'll prove it's stolen, then they'll learn to make it so it's difficult to port to console. And then it's even more trust lost between different interests once again. Good Times!

I think it's shitty too to withhold something special from others just because of something as stupid as console wars. However, I also don't have my head so far up my ass to think it's for justice.

Do we know if anyone actually tried to communicate with the mod creator to one day release it on console? You know, while not being a complete dick?

 

[Strazdas]

Thirdly, Modders have copyright on any code or assets they have created and do own their mods. Noone, not even bethesda has a right to take and use them without permission.

Whilst generally I agree with your post, I must take issue with the quoted point. As discussed in my first post in this thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.939158.23678893], Bethesda does actually have rights to do as they wish with your mod, as you grant them that right via the Creation Kit EULA. However, its not an issue here because its not Bethesda uploading these mods.

The EULA that "gives" them this right is actually the Bethesda.net EULA, and therefore anyone that has created a mod and uploaded it somewhere else other than Bethesda.net (for example Nexus) has not agreed to this to begin with.

Secondly, such EULA paragraph(s) in Creation kit would be null and void. It wuold be equivalent to Adobe claiming they have a right to use any thing created with Photoshop because their EULA said so. Creation Kit, as Photoshop - is a tool. Bethesda has a right to assets of the game (that are often included by mods) but not to the mods themselves.

Except it does have to do with this topic. Because once people start taking down mods because they feel like they're stolen, then you head down a path where they're flagging everything that looks like the mod they made. Because as we've all said creators aren't being credited, and the likely reporters aren't the authors, but others who are acting on their behalf due to platform separation.

So yes, its entirely valid to ask where the line is when you're embarking down a road which can be summed up as 'Issuing takedowns to mods which look like they're mine, because some people are stealing my mod in response to my refusal (valid or otherwise) to support this platform.'

And that is why copyright courts exist, to make sure the correct person gets punished. Also worth noting that if you recreated the mod ideally, even from scratch, you are breaking their copyright under current laws.

The case linked in this topic does include actual authors reporting and complaining about it. The linked reddit thread has a lot more info in it and even the author himself posting comments. your question about the line is as a question about youtube takedowns. As in - most authors will never have enough financial resources for a court and thus the line will never actually get defined and be up to hosting company to decide. For example despite Nintendo openly admitting to issuing illegal takedowns, absolutely nothing gets done about it.

They won't just complain, they'll prove it's stolen, the they'll learn to make it so it's difficult to port to console. And then it's even more trust lost between different interests once again. Good Times!

Do we know if anyone actually tried to communicate with the mod creator to one day release it on console? You know, while not being a complete dick?

The creators i know are going to include a redundant line in the code that checks for operating system running and if its a console they are going to simply crash the game, so the mod would be unusable (but leave no permanent damage) to avoid theft like this. Im not as good with coding (im a small time modder in comparison) but apperently its pretty easy to check whether the mod is run on console or on pc.

We know that when it comes to mods described in the OP of this thread case - the mod authors stated that noone tried to ask permission, they just took it, unpackaged (because you cant submit packaged mods to consoles) and claimed as thier own.

 

[Nazulu]

They won't just complain, they'll prove it's stolen, the they'll learn to make it so it's difficult to port to console. And then it's even more trust lost between different interests once again. Good Times!

Do we know if anyone actually tried to communicate with the mod creator to one day release it on console? You know, while not being a complete dick?

The creators i know are going to include a redundant line in the code that checks for operating system running and if its a console they are going to simply crash the game, so the mod would be unusable (but leave no permanent damage) to avoid theft like this. Im not as good with coding (im a small time modder in comparison) but apperently its pretty easy to check whether the mod is run on console or on pc.

That's some clever coding. Do you think it will be easy for other coders to remove the redundant line of code?

We know that when it comes to mods described in the OP of this thread case - the mod authors stated that noone tried to ask permission, they just took it, unpackaged (because you cant submit packaged mods to consoles) and claimed as thier own.

It's the first thing that came to mind, did they even bother asking? Usually a no in my experience. And I am kinda surprised more than one person here actually believes this crap is justified.

It is a word I see misused 99% of the time, but this definitely a serious case of entitlement blues.

 

[Strazdas]

That's some clever coding. Do you think it will be easy for other coders to remove the redundant line of code?

It's the first thing that came to mind, did they even bother asking? Usually a no in my experience. And I am kinda surprised more than one person here actually believes this crap is justified.

It is a word I see misused 99% of the time, but this definitely a serious case of entitlement blues.

Since to submit the code to Xbox you have to decompress it anyway (the system wont accept compressed mods, unlike PC version), i guess anyone capable of writing such code would be able to find and remove it as well. But then id guess most people competent enough to do so would instead write thier own mod instead of stealing.

Actually this word is not used correctly by you. Entitled means that they deserve to have it, as in i am entitled to a refund for a broken product. These people are not entitled to those mods.

 

[RaikuFA]

If you're really upset that your mods are on console and you don't want them on there to spite console gamers, well, you kinda lost the right to complain at that point. If it's cause of QA or a lack of experience with xbox I won't blame you.

Yeah, I'm sure that's telling them. "Sorry creators, but if I deem that your work should be used in this way, then I'm gonna do it!"

They won't just complain, they'll prove it's stolen, then they'll learn to make it so it's difficult to port to console. And then it's even more trust lost between different interests once again. Good Times!

I think it's shitty too to withhold something special from others just because of something as stupid as console wars. However, I also don't have my head so far up my ass to think it's for justice.

Do we know if anyone actually tried to communicate with the mod creator to one day release it on console? You know, while not being a complete dick?

It's a slippery slope for sure, but if you really want to alienate a whole market just to spite some people's platform of choice you're gonna have a hard time finding sympathy.

 

[Elijin]

A lot of the 'modders should/will just make their mods intentionally unusable on consoles' reactions here simply make me think 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'.

 

[Nazulu]

Since to submit the code to Xbox you have to decompress it anyway (the system wont accept compressed mods, unlike PC version), i guess anyone capable of writing such code would be able to find and remove it as well. But then id guess most people competent enough to do so would instead write thier own mod instead of stealing.

Actually this word is not used correctly by you. Entitled means that they deserve to have it, as in i am entitled to a refund for a broken product. These people are not entitled to those mods.

I don't know how often mischief happens in the modding scene, but this is the first I've heard about someone taking another persons mod for themselves. It's not a common thing, right?

Also, I guess I should've said they felt entitled. I was trying to be sarcastic with it. I thought it would be funny, the entitlement blues meaning; they have a bad case of feeling entitled. No? Oh well. I tried.

It's a slippery slope for sure, but if you really want to alienate a whole market just to spite some people's platform of choice you're gonna have a hard time finding sympathy.

Like I said, I agree it's childish, but I feel it should be still left up to the creators. At least it will be up to them to look like a selfish prick, or just really childish.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I didn't think we, as mod authors, were copyright holders. Any "rights" quote unquote we had were out of respect, not out of law. My understanding is that the EULA for the GECK/Creation Kit has always given Bethesda ownership of any mods we create as well as forbidding the sale of any content made with it.

It's not surprising that this content would be stolen. A console gamer who wants a PC mod would have to put it onto Bethesda.net for it to work. Any mods I make I would put onto Nexus only, as would many authors so anything elsewhere would be stolen. It wouldn't work with scripted mods that don't include the source tho, since they can't be recompiled.

 

[SupahEwok]

Where's the line though?

To use an already supplied example, if you make a blue box with the public toolset, then say "people who own orange shoes can't play with my blue box."
Then I come along and go gee, I like the blue box though. The tools are available so I create the same blue box and say "anyone can use this blue box!".
Some time later you decide the blue box was your idea and dmca my blue box.

Yes, obviously not everyone is recreating mods and there are heaps of reuploads. But if you create a mod with a public tool set but only for group a, do you really get to control that idea? Because that's the eventual path of dmcas.

So, where's the line?

Please. There hasn't been enough time for these mods to have been properly written and tested independently.

Let's go back to the original example. What's happening is that folks are seeing blue boxes, and demanding that they get red boxes. Blue box man says "I only do blue boxes." So folks steal the blue box, paint red sloppily over it so that it might or might not even function as a red box, and claiming that the red box was 100% their own idea and work. Now blue box makers are chaining their boxes to a wall so asshats don't run off with them, and that's entirely their right. I certainly don't leave my bike outside unchained.

 

[sagitel]

If you're really upset that your mods are on console and you don't want them on there to spite console gamers, well, you kinda lost the right to complain at that point. If it's cause of QA or a lack of experience with xbox I won't blame you.

There is also the fact that pc gamers get shafted oh so often for the sake of console gamers. Mods were one of the things that no matter how much the publishers wanted to do for consoles, belonged to pc. Now we see console gamers whining and saying things like this about how modders are assholes if they dont wanna go the extra mile to bring their creation to consoles. Im not surprised if they dont wanna do it

 

[Strazdas]

I don't know how often mischief happens in the modding scene, but this is the first I've heard about someone taking another persons mod for themselves. It's not a common thing, right?

Also, I guess I should've said they felt entitled. I was trying to be sarcastic with it. I thought it would be funny, the entitlement blues meaning; they have a bad case of feeling entitled. No? Oh well. I tried.

It happens, but the sites hosting are usually willing and quick about removing them. Most people tend to respect other modders and dont steal though. Worth noting that when the paid mods debacle happened every mod that was turned into paid mod was available for free via mod piracy (bethesda created mod piracy, thats quite a legacy there). Modding scene is highly based on respect, and by making mods paid they lost a lot of it thus some people felt it right to pirate their mods.

Yeah, i can see what you meant by that phrase, but ive seen it misused so often...

I didn't think we, as mod authors, were copyright holders. Any "rights" quote unquote we had were out of respect, not out of law. My understanding is that the EULA for the GECK/Creation Kit has always given Bethesda ownership of any mods we create as well as forbidding the sale of any content made with it.

Well surprise, we are. Any work you have created that is your own (IE your own code or assets) is copyrighted to you under current international law in countries that agreed to Geneva Berne convention (which is basically everyone but the worst shitholes). First, there is no such clause in the GECK EULA, and secondly even if it were it would not be valid because law overrules private contracts.

Edit: Fixed convention name.

 

[RaikuFA]

If you're really upset that your mods are on console and you don't want them on there to spite console gamers, well, you kinda lost the right to complain at that point. If it's cause of QA or a lack of experience with xbox I won't blame you.

There is also the fact that pc gamers get shafted oh so often for the sake of console gamers. Mods were one of the things that no matter how much the publishers wanted to do for consoles, belonged to pc. Now we see console gamers whining and saying things like this about how modders are assholes if they dont wanna go the extra mile to bring their creation to consoles. Im not surprised if they dont wanna do it

I've never been a fan of PC getting shafted either. Either way you're no better than the guys who shafts PC if you're doing it out of spite.

 

[nickpy]

Geneva convention

*Berne Convention

Geneva Convetion is about treatment of prisoners and civilians of nations at war with eachother.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

There are many genuine reasons why someone may not want to port something to another platform. Off the top of my head: The modder may not have time, want to do it but do it at a later time more convenient to themselves, have moved on to making other mods (maybe even for a different game), they might need to obtain permission from other contributors to the mod, the mod might be difficult or impossible to port because of extra requirements like SKSE or performance issues, the mod might not adapt well to use by a gamepad, they might not want to have to deal with the minority of Xbox players that "[send] death threats and harassing messages", heck they might not have an Xbox One to test their port and feel uncomfortable releasing a port without thoroughly testing it first.

Yes, Modding is not only about creating, but maintaining the quality as well.
I have been thinking about this, and I wish to expand on this issue.

Lending the IP of the mod will also potentially give part of the rights to the one who received the rights to the mod, and rightfully so. If person B got the rights to the mod then worked his butts off for Xbone compatibility, then he deserves part of it.

The problem with the IP of the mod is that it is potentially profitable. After all the stuff that happened with PAID F***** mods, it has... reminded many modders about the value of their IP's.(at best, they would require to split the profit with another person, if they handed their IP to just about everyone) If that is the case, protecting your own property is not only sensible, it is natural thing to do. Perhaps now more than ever since Bethesda has its own mod distribution platform.

And IF I am right I want everyone to know I frickin

Spoiler: called it

...Many work of collaborated project inspiring many, sometimes passed down from one to another (and sometimes not willingly), Now lost in time.

Now that anyone can "take the ball and go home" per se in the said grand collaboration, Do you believe that there will be as much as collaboration as it did before?

Do you believe that work or finding will be shared just as before knowing that it will only foster stronger competitors, or even worse - stolen for profits?

And would you think that now that Adam and Eve took the bite out of fruit of knowledge(of good and evil, or on this matter, knowledge of possession and property) they will be better off?

Only time will tell, for this change(or as some would say, damage) is irreversible in my opinion.

 

[Strazdas]

Geneva convention

*Berne Convention

Geneva Convetion is about treatment of prisoners and civilians of nations at war with eachother.

Thanks for the correction. I always get those mixed up for some reason.