Fallout: New Vegas Dev: Recent RPG Advances "Undermine" the Genre

[dubious_wolf]

TOTALLY AGREE!
I know I've been made fat and lazy by the addition of quick travel and map markers.
It's nice to be able to get to the "good bitz" of a story, but I remember in Morrowind when you had to travel all over kingdom-fucking-come, and had to rely on various forms of NPC transport. It made it interesting to find all of the little world locations and such. Sure It was a pain in the ass when you ran into a daedra temple and got F-d by a bunch of Atronachs and dremora... but that was half the fun. And I can't tell you how many hours I ran around Vivec City.... Ah the memories.
The only thing I think helps is the organized, micro managed quest log. It's nice to be able to pick up on a quest I've left cold for a month. I don't want to write down notes about who needs talking to and where they are. My character should be more than capable of doing this.

That being said though. I think the relative "size" of the game worlds maybe a little out of hand, which necessitates the use of fast travel features.

 

[JPH330]

Bethesda said he didnt know what he was talking about when trying to explain the PS3 bugs with Skyrim.

He is lashing out in a hissy fit of critical comments aimed exclusively at Skyrim.

Obsidian has never made a game that I would say is truely excelent. KOTOR 2 is their best one, and its missing an ending.

That was Joe Sawyer, this quote came from Chris Avellone. Different people, dawg. Avellone wrote Planescape: Torment, worked on Fallout 2 and Icewind Dale, he knows his RPGs.

I have no doubt that he's a good dialogue writer, but I really question whether he knows what he's talking about in regards to game design. Planescape: Torment has excellent writing, but the gameplay is a dull slog. I think the same can be said of Fallout 2 and Icewind Dale.

 

[veloper]

Avellone has credit, but it's too bad he's focussing on the wrong thing.

Compasses, maps and journals aren't such a big issue. Easy, simple combat is first cause for the decline in challenging RPGs.

 

[CK76]

That's where mods come in. My mod for Fallout 3 adds several "travel terminals" (that charge you a small fee to teleport you around), gives you the option to disable fast travel (for an permanent XP bonus), and generally makes the game more realistic. If devs release mod tools, then modders can "fix" games not being hardcore enough, and do tons of other stuff. All at no cost or trouble to the devs. Really, it's win/win, I wish more developers would figure this out, instead of pissing all over their customers.

I love this model. catering game design to play types is brilliant! I don't think any game "should" be played any way. Maybe I like this game on "easy" on that on "hard" or like you say, just adjusting certain aspects to make it more enjoyable of an experience.

This concept could revolutionize gaming. I know mods exist (and have for some time) but streamlining and endorsing them where majority use them would make games have new lives.

 

[Frankster]

I kinda disagree with Avellone on voice-acting, I have always felt that it makes games more linear and short. After all it is much more costly to hire voice actor than write more lines.

Adding on this, having to voice every single line has the knock on effect of limiting the dialogue options and diverting a massive amount of ressources to do voice acting well, nothing worst then mediocre voice acting (unless it adds to the cheesy charm a la resident evil, in that one i kinda expect voice acting to be crummy)

One of the things that turned me off the previous ES games was the npcs sounding all alike, it really took me out of the game like nothing else and meant i could never got into it (much improved in skyrim, which im loving atm).

Also on the same page, tend to dislike when player characters are voiced, not least cos they never sound anything like i want them to sound (i forgive that in me series though as it's more "your take on sheperds character" rather then "your character who happens to be called sheperd", he is a defined character).

But for normal rpgs, think I prefer the bg2 baldurization style of dialogue where the NPCs would speak the first most important lines or just the important parts in general, and the rest would be just text. Meant you could both hear the voices of the npc and also chat to them about tons of stuff and have more dialogue options in general.

 

[coldfrog]

I actually am a fan of "quest journals" as long as they're not written as an itemized grocery list of things you need to complete. I like it when a journal is written as a sort of recapitulation of the characters own experiences in that characters words. With that, you can impart a lot about a character (especially in RPGs where the main character tends to be silent) simply by giving him an even more personal voice.

 

[Callate]

I don't really see struggling with the interface or making maps and notes by hand on paper as providing a positive kind of challenge to the player. Certainly, I have no objections to "hardcore modes" for those who want to play that way, but having played these games since the earliest Ultimas and Bard's Tales and the like, I confess my desire to go back to sketching out dungeons on graph paper is virtually nil.

Alternatively, though, I think they could be used in more interesting ways. You could have "Bermuda Triangle" style areas where quest markers are mixed up, or radical changes in areas that aren't recorded until you return to them (this city was razed by demons, this area sprouted a mysterious black mountain after the earthquake, etc.)

 

[Dirty Apple]

What I'm trying to say is that there is a generation of gamers that aren't interested in a challenge while they play only winning. They aren't looking to push themselves or fight through repeated failures. Because, to fail would mean that they aren't perfect and special like they'd been told.

Hang on... Your 12 year old family member, and inexperienced gamer(who, if he was 12 when Z:MM came out he's in his early 20s now) used guides because his parents brought him one, and you're writing off an entire generation of gamers, which, incidentally, is a generation pretty much EVERYBODY ON THE ESCAPIST falls under?

Might wanna reconsider that post mate. I knew a guy in his 30's who once wrote a completely ridiculous post... So what I'm trying to say here is that we have an older generation who go on forums just to spout nonsense.

A bit heavy handed on the Reductio ad Absurdum towards the end there, but I hear what you're saying. That being said, judging solely by the reaction my post got from other members, I'd have to say that your attitude was in the minority, not mine. And, I don't know where you get off claiming that the escapist community sits firmly in the early 20's demographic. In my time here, I've met people from 12 years old to their 50's. So before you try and start a Spartacus chant, maybe you should ask yourself why you're feeling so defensive about what I said. Struck a little too close to home didn't it?

I eagerly await your CAPS laden reply.

 

[geizr]

Many games inundate you with multiple tasks or quests to do simultaneously, and, often, while in the process of completing those quests, you'll pick up several more along the way. If one didn't have an in-game quest journal or took the time to write down the details of each task and quest as they are acquired, one would quickly forget what needs to be done and where to go to accomplish the quest.

The quest compass, in my honest opinion, has become a necessity because so many games are just horrible at providing sufficient description of the location and appearance of various quest objectives. It's not much fun to just wander about until you stumble upon the quest objective. It's also not very intellectually stimulating to be reduce to mere brute force searching instead of deductive reasoning to locate and identify quest objectives.

Even with the quest journal today, there still often remains some difficulty determining where to turn in the quest for completion because the name and location of quest givers may have been forgotten, or the quest did not give sufficient information to whom the quest should be turned-in. Without the big arrow, exclamation mark, etc., one can sometimes carry a quest around for a long time because they can't remember or find the turn-in.

There's also the problem of just finding the quests in the first place. The way some games are designed, without some indicator denoting who has a quest, the gamer is forced to just interact with every single NPC until he finds the ones that give a quest.

If you want to get rid of the quest journal, slow the tasking of the player such he only has one thing to do at any given time(I guarantee that will do nothing but cause gamers to *****). If you want to get rid of the need for the quest compass, be more complete and precise in describing quest objectives, their location and appearance, and where and to whom quests should be turned-in for completion. Also, design the flow of the game so that gamers naturally come across quests as part of their progression, rather than have to run around hunting for quests.

It's all well and good to want to eliminate these elements for purposes of increasing challenge, but you have to also consider eliminating the conditions that have necessitated their introduction in the first place, and it isn't entirely because of lazy, stupid gamers. Lazy, stupid game design and implementation has been a definite contributing factor.

Human beings are not good at brute force iteration because we are not computers. We are good at deductive reasoning, pattern-matching, and information grouping, and games(and, honestly, software in general) needs to be designed to that fact. Having to play a game via brute force iteration is not challenging; it's just tedious.

 

[Faerillis]

Compasses that point directly at the quest objective: Ok, that's always been a bit much though I think some sort-of "Hey look that way" is not the worst thing. Skyrim's Clairvoyance is probably the most egregious version of this, though it is more than a little useful in finding where that goddamn road through the mountains is.

Auto-Maps: How often are you exploring some new and random world nowadays? If you are there is a reason not to have "auto-maps" yet in most games now the world you're in has maps of the general area and topography.

Quest Journals: I don't like Skyrim's quest journals blurb above that's written as though personal narrative, but I do like having a collection of data about the quest I'm on. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind Journals with personal narrative I just think if they're in the game I should be the one writing in them and making the narrative.

 

[Simeon Ivanov]

Morrowind simply pointed you in a direction and said "it's somewhere thataway." I'm not sure I agree with that design, but I would like it kept as an option.

I really wish there was some sort of middle ground between that. I don't want to be stumbling around searching every corner for hours on end, but I don't want an arrow on the compass leading me by the nose as well.

How about Assassin's Creed's system, where they highlight a small territory and you have to find your target using your powers?

OT: I like his "gray moral choices" and "action and consequence" statement. And while I'll probably be able to get past no-voice-acting I'm not sure about the challenge thing. Is he talking about difficulty, or simply using more than "Hit guy with weapon"

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

The fethishizing of difficulty in games is not, to my mind, a positive thing at all. While a game that caters to different levels with its settings is ideal, a game that is relatively easy is no less a game. There are a lot of easy games that are great. There are a lot of easy games that would be worse if they were harder (harder means failure is more possible and failure tends to break up the narrative).

Difficulty is more appropriate for some genres, some subgenres, and some games than others.

The rest of the stuff in the article is very well put though. My only gripes about convenience in modern RPGs is the way fast travel is implemented (often completely outside the logic of the game) and the compasses he mentions. For an example of a great game with in-world fast travel, look at what Morrowind did: a series of interconnecting networks that you have to accomplish tasks to access and that rewards the player learning to navigate the web of transportation. It's a beautiful combination of providing a mechanical convenience reward for a character's progression while simultaneously keeping a means of player progression. As for the compasses, I think Skyrim had an absolutely amazing opportunity and somewhat squandered it - the clairvoyance spell was a great way of making sure people could find things, but then they left a compass in anyway.

 

[Feylynn]

Dragon Age 2 was pretty well balanced for the few who played it on its only viable difficulty. Mark of the Assassin was admittedly only hard because Tallis was so uselessly under powered that you had to 3 man the entire DLC quest line. Welcome challenge but I missed Varric. =(

But it's also guilty of some of his accusation I think. The no world concept they used in all of Dragon Age so far has really limited the exploration needed. Also, the tab button that highlights details is terrible. I didn't know it existed and spent an hour literally sifting through every book in the mage tower on mouse over bloody manually reading the spines during that summoning side quest you do.
Not using the tab button gives you more exploration of actually having to look for things, though undermined by the complete lack of map diversity regardless...

Dark Souls did really well (Really Bad?) For giving you any direction at all. It was refreshing at first but honestly it just gets annoying. I could use without some of the walking aimlessly around looking for the next goal.

 

[Zukhramm]

Morrowind simply pointed you in a direction and said "it's somewhere thataway." I'm not sure I agree with that design, but I would like it kept as an option.

No it didn't. Morrowind often gave you detailed direction describing what roads to follow and at what landmarks you should turn left or right.

 

[Amnestic]

"I'll say the 'advances' have been more for player convenience, sometimes good, sometimes bad, in my opinion. Journals, quest compasses that point directly to the goal and show you the route, auto-maps, etc. are helpful; at the same time, I think it undermines the thrill of victory and discovery and a lot of what makes an RPG an RPG (exploration, notably).

"Lastly, fully voice-acted characters has been something to adapt to since Knights of the Old Republic 1, and the amount of localization, recording and audio work required is substantial, but I feel it's a net positive for the player," he continued.

Okay, so what're we looking at here?

Journals-> I like them, personally. Giving the player the option not to use them but rather write their own entries would be nice too, since then you can jot down important details rather than having to parse what the game designers THINK you want to know. I'm pretty sure Baldur's Gate 2 had both a "ready-made" journal which updated quests automatically but also let you write your own entries. I liked that. (OH HEY IS THAT AMNESTIC PRAISING BALDURS GATE 2 AGAIN? I THINK IT IS!)

Quest Compasses-> I'm of two minds for this. If your character already knows where the target is ("Go back to this place you've already been to and spoken to this person you've already met three times already") then a quest compass makes sense. It guides you on a path you already know. If it's not somewhere you know ("Go east here to find a big building and investigate wtf is going on!") then I'd rather not have them. In open world games, especially. Exploration is part of the fun and it's harder to explore when you're being handheld through stuff.

Auto-maps-> Not sure what he means here. Maps which update automatically? Maps which reveal everything automatically? What? Maps which update automatically make sense. Expecting your player to hand draw their own map is a bit silly really. Maps which reveal everything automatically...less so. But again, I feel this comes down to a matter of degrees. If having a complete map of your country with major settlements noted on it is commonplace in your universe, then of course the character should be provided with one too, even if they have to go out and buy it.

Full Voice Acting-> I still prefer (grown) the way Baldur's Gate chose to approach this. Give NPCs 1-2 lines of voiced dialogue and let the rest be text. Players are surprisingly adept at reading things in voices they've already been introduced to. You don't need to voice everything. Besides the costs Mr. Avellone listed above, there's also the cost that it gives the writer less freedom and the player less description.

Just think back to Alpha Protocol and Mass Effect, where your options for responses were only a few words at best and you weren't really sure what or how they'd respond. Compare that to Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age, where you know exactly what your character would say. I know some people who prefer the former, and I really liked the way Alpha Protocol's "dynamic" speech thing worked, but I think in RPGs it's important that you know exactly what your character is going to say.

Both have their positives and negatives and I don't begrudge people for preferring one over the other. I'd just like to see more games with the "old" style too. We don't need our hands held through every line of dialogue. One or two at the start and the occasional reminder is all gamers need.

 

[SilverUchiha]

I'll admit. I do feel video-game and PC RPGs lack a certain feel that table-top RPGs can deliver. Maybe that's why RPG games just don't mesh with me as well as I'd like.

 

[RatRace123]

On his exact sentiment, I don't know if I agree. Maybe it's just because I started playing RPGs when they all had the journal, map, quest compass thing, (Pokemon for the GBC was my first one, and that totally counts as an RPG.) so I don't particularly mind those features. In Bethesda games especially I'd get completely lost without them.
Plus, I generally feel that with the compass/map thing I'm more inclined to go exploring; knowing that I can't get totally lost gives me more comfort to go off in other directions. In contrast, without those things I'd be focusing entirely on getting to the destination just so I don't forget where it is and end up getting rage-quittingly lost.

On voice acting, I do agree. I like it, much easier to get immersed in a world where people don't speak in text, at least for me.

 

[tzimize]

If I played Skyrim and was told to get to a dungeon out in the middle of now where, without a map, I'd get SOOOO lost.

It'd be fun to let you loose in Daggerfall. Skyrims predecessor, which is something like literally a thousand times bigger