Fantasy Cliches Are Both Good and Bad

[ArmorArmadillo]

I like

I remember reading somewhere that Salvatore made Drizzt quirky on purpose as a sidekick to Wulfgar, who was supposed to be the main character. However, it was written that he realized the true star of the story early on and adjusted the story to suit. Besides, Drizzt is awesome and deep as a character - who wouldn't want to be him (well, up and until the 4th ed setting anyway)? That and tabletop gamers are mainstream social outcasts so being the good outcast I think really resonates with us.

Well, Drizzt bashing tends to gloss over the fact that he was a good character, and people were really just indirectly hating on him because too many people imitated him.

Sometimes, though, I like cliches...sometimes in all the fervor to be new and original people forget that one of the reasons people play games like DnD is to live out a certain character fantasy. Maybe I WANT to be a muscles and loincloth Frazetta barbarian or a pointy-hat elven wizard. Originality is nice, but it's about what makes your experience fun.

What I really DON'T like, though, is when people use cliches but try to have pretenses of originality. We don't have halflings, halflings are a cliche, we have "smallkyn", they have a distinct Norse flair (not a rural english flair). Our wizards use magyck and don't wear pointy hats because pointy hats are cliche. Our orcs are orks and are really noble shamanistic individuals not just senseless barbarians because that would be a cliche. Our dragons hatch from Gemstones, not Eggs.

If you want to make an entirely new and interesting setting that's cool, but so many people make only superficial changes and think that's enough to escape cliche.

 

[lomylithruldor]

Our wizards use magyck and don't wear pointy hats because pointy hats are cliche. Our orcs are orks and are really noble shamanistic individuals not just senseless barbarians because that would be a cliche. Our dragons hatch from Gemstones, not Eggs.

If you want to make an entirely new and interesting setting that's cool, but so many people make only superficial changes and think that's enough to escape cliche.

You mean mages like in the World of Darkness?

Also, I really like how orcs are in WoW.

But yeah, I agree with you when they only change the name to something unpronounceable to be "original". I've seen it a lot in "original" LARPs settings.

 

[Ursus Astrorum]

Paladins do still need to be good, right? Or did they remove that entirely in 4th edition? I don't remember.

It depends on the deity they follow.
Follow a evil deity and you can be evil.
Follow a lawful good and you need to be lawful good.

Etc.. etc..

Actually, since paladins can no longer "Fall" in vanilla 4e (the ritual is a permanent bond that cannot be removed), you can technically be the paladin of a good god and still be evil.

 

[Necrofudge]

I just figured that dwarves were given a random accent from the general United Kingdom area since thats where most medieval stories revolve around.

 

[lomylithruldor]

Paladins do still need to be good, right? Or did they remove that entirely in 4th edition? I don't remember.

It depends on the deity they follow.
Follow a evil deity and you can be evil.
Follow a lawful good and you need to be lawful good.

Etc.. etc..

Actually, since paladins can no longer "Fall" in vanilla 4e (the ritual is a permanent bond that cannot be removed), you can technically be the paladin of a good god and still be evil.

I guess it's a good way to attract avengers of your god that want you to stop spoiling its name.

 

[Callate]

Hmmm... A few things I should mention.

One: it's good to really consider the "why" of a cliche before you go upending it. For example, while I don't really have a problem with a barbarian wizard who works some kind of wild, improvisational magic, magic is frequently depicted as a sort of art or science that requires intense study and the utmost control (which is often part of why every sword-swinger doesn't also cast spells). And requires, more to the point, things like literacy, books, and schools. You simply don't get those things from a "savage" background; paper and ink are fundamentally the artifacts of a people who live under a roof most of the time and have enough stability in their lives to create things that aren't necessary for a day-to-day existence. In short, make your "barbarian" wizard, but fully consider just how different that creature is from the "classic" model.

(Though I suppose a different sort of "barbarian" wizard could just be "My master decided he had had enough of people and raised me in his tower in the middle of nowhere, and he didn't see no need for stinkin' table manners.")

Two: Yes, you need some kind of fall for "ruined" dungeons, but it doesn't always follow that whole civilizations rose and fell for such same to exist. The thieves' guild used to use these tunnels to hide and smuggle stolen goods; then there was a violent schism within the Guild, the people who knew the tunnels well were killed, and some monsters moved in to make those who knew them "less well" less than eager to explore them. The Necromancer's enemies assaulted his castle and undermined it, bringing it crashing down around his ears; they didn't know that he had already crossed the border into undeath himself, and has been plotting his return to power as those who remembered him grow old and die. And so on.

Finally, while some cliches can be tried and obnoxious, be aware that reflexively subverting a cliche at every turn can also quickly become tired and obnoxious. Don't invoke tropes lazily, but don't dismiss them reflexively. Do it because you want to do something interesting, something that makes sense. So you think a dwarven monk who studied a dance-like martial art with the elves would be humorous... Go beyond that. How did they get there? What is it in their "native" culture that they're turning their back on? What has it made them like, to live between worlds? What have they done to make themselves more acceptable to their chosen peers?

 

[monalith]

in one of the latest RPG's i played i made a crazy German called Herman who wore a chicken suit and had 2 Glock 18's. Around 15 minutes into the game i had jumped through a window to escape tear gas thrown by guards who were looking to arrest everyone in a dog fighting ring. I ended up killing two of the guards with head shots and dodging a ridiculous amount of fire from three AK-47's. the rest of the campaign got even crazier later on.

 

[Ranorak]

Hmmm... A few things I should mention.

One: it's good to really consider the "why" of a cliche before you go upending it. For example, while I don't really have a problem with a barbarian wizard who works some kind of wild, improvisational magic, magic is frequently depicted as a sort of art or science that requires intense study and the utmost control (which is often part of why every sword-swinger doesn't also cast spells). And requires, more to the point, things like literacy, books, and schools. You simply don't get those things from a "savage" background; paper and ink are fundamentally the artifacts of a people who live under a roof most of the time and have enough stability in their lives to create things that aren't necessary for a day-to-day existence. In short, make your "barbarian" wizard, but fully consider just how different that creature is from the "classic" model.

(Though I suppose a different sort of "barbarian" wizard could just be "My master decided he had had enough of people and raised me in his tower in the middle of nowhere, and he didn't see no need for stinkin' table manners.")

Two: Yes, you need some kind of fall for "ruined" dungeons, but it doesn't always follow that whole civilizations rose and fell for such same to exist. The thieves' guild used to use these tunnels to hide and smuggle stolen goods; then there was a violent schism within the Guild, the people who knew the tunnels well were killed, and some monsters moved in to make those who knew them "less well" less than eager to explore them. The Necromancer's enemies assaulted his castle and undermined it, bringing it crashing down around his ears; they didn't know that he had already crossed the border into undeath himself, and has been plotting his return to power as those who remembered him grow old and die. And so on.

Finally, while some cliches can be tried and obnoxious, be aware that reflexively subverting a cliche at every turn can also quickly become tired and obnoxious. Don't invoke tropes lazily, but don't dismiss them reflexively. Do it because you want to do something interesting, something that makes sense. So you think a dwarven monk who studied a dance-like martial art with the elves would be humorous... Go beyond that. How did they get there? What is it in their "native" culture that they're turning their back on? What has it made them like, to live between worlds? What have they done to make themselves more acceptable to their chosen peers?

Aren't Sorcerers more like barbaric wizards?
I always thought they were more wild and natural in their magic casting.

"The sorcerer is the arcane antithesis of the wizard.
Wielding raw, barely contained magical power, sorcerers
channel bursts and blasts of arcane energy
through their bodies. They gain their power not
through rigorous study of esoteric tomes, but by harnessing
magic in their blood, waiting to be tapped
and shaped. If wizards wield magic as fighters wield
swords, a sorcerer?s magic is the arcing greataxe of a
raging barbarian."

PHB2

 

[bjj hero]

Simply put if your a kid just out of apprenticeship, who can toss his first sleep spell, yeah well.. normal clothing or more modest robes are for you. On the other hand if your the guy who has the huge magical library full of artifacts oftentimes in the backround of that quintessential wizard... well at that point your out to cut a certain image. The celestrial imagery probably says a lot about what your about, especially if astronomy/astrology plays some kind of role in your powers.

I like the idea of some level 1 chancer wearing all of the over the top wizard garb. Using it to pass himself off as all powerful with just a hand full of cantrips, some alchemy and a mountain of bullshit. It fits with the wandering adventurers thing as he would have to move on quickly once found out, after free loading an milking a town dry.

I might even wear a disguise to look older, a bit like Hannibal always did in the A Team.

I'd probably take some rogue early on to fit.

As far as stereotypes go, RP is meant to be entertainment. If you want to roleplay a stereotype and enjoy it then do it. I think its up to the DM to do things differently and keep NPCs fresh, players can play what they enjoy.

 

[GothmogII]

Hmmm... A few things I should mention.

One: it's good to really consider the "why" of a cliche before you go upending it. For example, while I don't really have a problem with a barbarian wizard who works some kind of wild, improvisational magic, magic is frequently depicted as a sort of art or science that requires intense study and the utmost control (which is often part of why every sword-swinger doesn't also cast spells). And requires, more to the point, things like literacy, books, and schools. You simply don't get those things from a "savage" background; paper and ink are fundamentally the artifacts of a people who live under a roof most of the time and have enough stability in their lives to create things that aren't necessary for a day-to-day existence. In short, make your "barbarian" wizard, but fully consider just how different that creature is from the "classic" model.

(Though I suppose a different sort of "barbarian" wizard could just be "My master decided he had had enough of people and raised me in his tower in the middle of nowhere, and he didn't see no need for stinkin' table manners.")

Two: Yes, you need some kind of fall for "ruined" dungeons, but it doesn't always follow that whole civilizations rose and fell for such same to exist. The thieves' guild used to use these tunnels to hide and smuggle stolen goods; then there was a violent schism within the Guild, the people who knew the tunnels well were killed, and some monsters moved in to make those who knew them "less well" less than eager to explore them. The Necromancer's enemies assaulted his castle and undermined it, bringing it crashing down around his ears; they didn't know that he had already crossed the border into undeath himself, and has been plotting his return to power as those who remembered him grow old and die. And so on.

Finally, while some cliches can be tried and obnoxious, be aware that reflexively subverting a cliche at every turn can also quickly become tired and obnoxious. Don't invoke tropes lazily, but don't dismiss them reflexively. Do it because you want to do something interesting, something that makes sense. So you think a dwarven monk who studied a dance-like martial art with the elves would be humorous... Go beyond that. How did they get there? What is it in their "native" culture that they're turning their back on? What has it made them like, to live between worlds? What have they done to make themselves more acceptable to their chosen peers?

Aren't Sorcerers more like barbaric wizards?
I always thought they were more wild and natural in their magic casting.

"The sorcerer is the arcane antithesis of the wizard.
Wielding raw, barely contained magical power, sorcerers
channel bursts and blasts of arcane energy
through their bodies. They gain their power not
through rigorous study of esoteric tomes, but by harnessing
magic in their blood, waiting to be tapped
and shaped. If wizards wield magic as fighters wield
swords, a sorcerer?s magic is the arcing greataxe of a
raging barbarian."

PHB2

Isn't there a 'Wildmage' class too? That is, insane wizards who can cast random spells and are generally uncontrollable too, sounds like a pretty apt fit for a barbarian styled mage.

 

[Amazon warrior]

Hmmm... A few things I should mention.

One: it's good to really consider the "why" of a cliche before you go upending it. For example, while I don't really have a problem with a barbarian wizard who works some kind of wild, improvisational magic, magic is frequently depicted as a sort of art or science that requires intense study and the utmost control (which is often part of why every sword-swinger doesn't also cast spells). And requires, more to the point, things like literacy, books, and schools. You simply don't get those things from a "savage" background; paper and ink are fundamentally the artifacts of a people who live under a roof most of the time and have enough stability in their lives to create things that aren't necessary for a day-to-day existence. In short, make your "barbarian" wizard, but fully consider just how different that creature is from the "classic" model.

(Though I suppose a different sort of "barbarian" wizard could just be "My master decided he had had enough of people and raised me in his tower in the middle of nowhere, and he didn't see no need for stinkin' table manners.")

Two: Yes, you need some kind of fall for "ruined" dungeons, but it doesn't always follow that whole civilizations rose and fell for such same to exist. The thieves' guild used to use these tunnels to hide and smuggle stolen goods; then there was a violent schism within the Guild, the people who knew the tunnels well were killed, and some monsters moved in to make those who knew them "less well" less than eager to explore them. The Necromancer's enemies assaulted his castle and undermined it, bringing it crashing down around his ears; they didn't know that he had already crossed the border into undeath himself, and has been plotting his return to power as those who remembered him grow old and die. And so on.

Finally, while some cliches can be tried and obnoxious, be aware that reflexively subverting a cliche at every turn can also quickly become tired and obnoxious. Don't invoke tropes lazily, but don't dismiss them reflexively. Do it because you want to do something interesting, something that makes sense. So you think a dwarven monk who studied a dance-like martial art with the elves would be humorous... Go beyond that. How did they get there? What is it in their "native" culture that they're turning their back on? What has it made them like, to live between worlds? What have they done to make themselves more acceptable to their chosen peers?

Aren't Sorcerers more like barbaric wizards?
I always thought they were more wild and natural in their magic casting.

"The sorcerer is the arcane antithesis of the wizard.
Wielding raw, barely contained magical power, sorcerers
channel bursts and blasts of arcane energy
through their bodies. They gain their power not
through rigorous study of esoteric tomes, but by harnessing
magic in their blood, waiting to be tapped
and shaped. If wizards wield magic as fighters wield
swords, a sorcerer?s magic is the arcing greataxe of a
raging barbarian."

PHB2

I once played a fire-heritage centaur barbarian/sorceror in a one-off. He rocked VERY hard. =D

 

[Ranorak]

SNIP

Aren't Sorcerers more like barbaric wizards?
I always thought they were more wild and natural in their magic casting.

"The sorcerer is the arcane antithesis of the wizard.
Wielding raw, barely contained magical power, sorcerers
channel bursts and blasts of arcane energy
through their bodies. They gain their power not
through rigorous study of esoteric tomes, but by harnessing
magic in their blood, waiting to be tapped
and shaped. If wizards wield magic as fighters wield
swords, a sorcerer?s magic is the arcing greataxe of a
raging barbarian."

PHB2

I once played a fire-heritage centaur barbarian/sorceror in a one-off. He rocked VERY hard. =D

That does sound freaking awesome.
I should see if I can fit that in a DnD 4th, maybe a Hybrid, or multi-class.

 

[Amazon warrior]

SNIP

Aren't Sorcerers more like barbaric wizards?
I always thought they were more wild and natural in their magic casting.

"The sorcerer is the arcane antithesis of the wizard.
Wielding raw, barely contained magical power, sorcerers
channel bursts and blasts of arcane energy
through their bodies. They gain their power not
through rigorous study of esoteric tomes, but by harnessing
magic in their blood, waiting to be tapped
and shaped. If wizards wield magic as fighters wield
swords, a sorcerer?s magic is the arcing greataxe of a
raging barbarian."

PHB2

I once played a fire-heritage centaur barbarian/sorceror in a one-off. He rocked VERY hard. =D

That does sound freaking awesome.
I should see if I can fit that in a DnD 4th, maybe a Hybrid, or multi-class.

Go for it!

 

[RMcD94]

I would only be really bothered by it if I was identifiably scottish (My last name starting with a Mac, not a Mc ;P)

Mc is still Scottish. Just more anglophied. In my school there's more Mcs than Macs. A lot more. (I live in Scotland.)

 

[ArmorArmadillo]

Our wizards use magyck and don't wear pointy hats because pointy hats are cliche. Our orcs are orks and are really noble shamanistic individuals not just senseless barbarians because that would be a cliche. Our dragons hatch from Gemstones, not Eggs.

If you want to make an entirely new and interesting setting that's cool, but so many people make only superficial changes and think that's enough to escape cliche.

You mean mages like in the World of Darkness?

Also, I really like how orcs are in WoW.

But yeah, I agree with you when they only change the name to something unpronounceable to be "original". I've seen it a lot in "original" LARPs settings.

Well, WoW orcs are pretty cool, but they're kind of the exception that proves the rule. In Warcraft and Warcraft 2, Orcs were just Orcs, a savage race of ugly evil warriors. And there really was nothing else. When Warcraft III hit, and Blizzard wanted to expand the game and had more storytelling chops, they went for "How can we make orcs something more complex without actually contradicting our prior works...so to that end Warcraft Orcs are pretty awesome...I do like that they go for trying to embrace the cliches and build on them instead of trying to act too good for them.

 

[Dhatz]

cliches are exactly why I hate even the existence of Dragon Age.

 

[Scobie]

DELETED

 

[Mookie_Magnus]

A friend of mine actually played a Halfling Paladin once. Any time he tried to reprimand people for their immoral behavior, people always thought he was a child and sent him on his way, or gave him a piece of candy.

This friend is very well-known for playing interesting/unique characters. One of my favorites was his Gay Dwarf...Bard, I think. Maybe Rogue... I dunno, whose profession was Tailor. He shaved his beard entirely off, and he just had so much fun with the character that the DM asked him to get rid of it, because the other players were just tired of him.

 

[chinangel]

we kind of broke this in our TTRPG, umm...our dark elf (yours truly) was not only a girl with a sour attitude, but also the tank of the group, absorbing obscene amounts of damage, great for crowd control and with a few spells to boost ourself. Our wizard was a little boy who could turn into either a water nymph or a muscle-bound fighter (and did both actually on regular occasion) our last member, the dexterity based one was a samurai girl so...not many cliche's there right?

 

[Djinni]

Umm...isn't a 'post-cataclysm' world what our world is then? xD Think about it, how many fallen ancient civilisations do we know about?...

The difference is that in fantasy rpgs the civilization that has fallen is much more technologically advanced than the civilization that the PCs are from. If you lived in the area of the Mayan civilization something like 50-100 years after it fell, you could be in a fantasy rpg type setting. What you dug up in Mayan ruins would be far beyond anything your current society could produce.

However I will venture to say that all people who play fantasy rpgs come from our modern civilization of cars, guns, lasers, and air conditioning While we can dig up art, architecture, etc that might rival anything modern, we aren't going to find any usable artifacts that are going to even equal what we can make today (talking about pure utility here, not craftsmanship which is art). Nevermind come across anything like the super-powerful only-one-of-these-was-ever-made items your hero can acquire in a fantasy campaign.