Fascism in Europe?

[Deadman Walkin]

I don't know about you guys but I find this ridiculous.
Article [http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/06/18/why-the-fascists-are-winning-in-europe/]

I was reading a version of this in a magazine the other day ago and when I found this online I found it quite...stupid?

The world economy is not doing so well and they expect people to hold their fists in the air say "in no way was it Capitalisms fault, we must support it 110%!" It is a cycle that we saw before with the great depression and National Socialism.

They also (at least in my opinion) are blowing this whole thing out of proportion. Look at Canada's government for a second. We have a party called the NDP (New Democratic Party) who have been in the running for Prime Minister for a while now and have never really climbed too high when it comes to Federal government. Their popularity goes up and down but never very high. Now with the article I read in the magazine, they were freaking out about how the "Fascist" party (British National Party) in UK won 2 seats on the government and it is the end of the world.

Sure they are gaining popularity because they don't like what the government is doing right now which is understandable but I don't find it a big deal if a few European countries are becoming very slightly more right wing. I think of it as a good thing so long as it doesn't go as far as Fascism or Communism, but implements health care and social programs.

I just am wondering if anyone has heard this story and what you think of this.

 

[lostclause]

When the moderates fail people go to the extremes. It happened in the great depression and it's happening again (though not to the same degree)
Couldn't read the whole article though, flash lagged my computer out.

 

[AboveUp]

I'm quite surprised there wasn't anything about the extreme right-winged Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, who was shot in a parking lot of a radio station after doing a show. If that didn't happen, he'd have been the prime minister quite easily. Mostly because of his extreme right views.

Or the current one we got here, Wilders, who as a hobby makes movies about how terrible Muslim faith is aka: Fitna. He will probably be our next prime minister if things keep going the way they are.

 

[Unreliable]

Holding a degree in Political Science, I can safely say that crises have the unfortunate (often) effect of disrupting political stability and delivering electoral outcomes that would have been laughed at a mere 5 years earlier (2003: a black president named Obama with Muslim relatives?! get outta here!)

Now Europe has never embraced the 100% Free Market fetish in the same way as Americans, but often, even the center-left (mainstream) party offers a fairly neoliberal/neoconservative [ie/ pro-bailout, pro-big business, pro-free trade] economic platform in European countries (Germany's SNP, Britains Labour party (who came to Canada to encourage more neoliberal economic policies and got booed by the NDP, who are one of the few remaining populist/anti-corporate globalization parties)). Where was I?

Oh, right, the European "right" is more about Euro-skepticism and nationalism than unfettered capitalism. Rather than the left wing model (pro-EU, Europe as one big friendly country working together) they want to hold on to traditional ideals (with a very 'unfriendly' opinion towards other European nations), such as national pride, religion, anti-immigrant*, anti-gay and racial discrimination, which is where the BNP comes in.

The BNP (I describe their political platform as the government from Children of Men and V for Vendetta), is the closest thing to fascism that Europe has seen since the Third Reich fell. They have some extremely questionable members, many with a background of racism, and seem to be gaining a very unhealthy level of popular support by using a collapse of the financial sector (Britains primary source of income for the past decade, resulting in lower wages and lost jobs), and blaming immigrants ("They took our jobs!"); [as if sending the immigrants away will make the elites go "well, you caught on to us, here's your raise now".]

Now 2 seats seems insignificant, but these seats were generally considered to be Labour/Conservative strongholds**. That they have collapsed to a third party with limited previous success in these municipalities is very much a surprise to political scientists. Further, opinion polling is showing their support growing, while Labour and Conservative (both blamed for the economic crisis, quite fairly truth be told) are losing support faster than the Hindenburg lost money for zepplin investments. This might be leading to a fractured "Italy-like" parliament, where dozens of small party's hold power and everything is a mess, or could be suggestive of a BNP emergence as a dominant, election contesting party. Opinion polling is quite accurate these days, and the BNP is higher than seemed reasonable 5 years ago.

I tend to like George Galloway, as far as British politicians go. The BNP are, in my (admitedly biased) opinion, very very dangerous. Part of what makes them so dangerous is that they clearly have anti-progressive views, but also that they very much are not a part of the established hegemony of political parties, making them unpredicable.



* - in all fairness to the right, this is largely due to large Muslim populations (such as trying to enforce Sharia Law), but should be seen as a secular vs religion debate about state powers, but is instead being depicted as a race war between the 'old guys' and the 'new guys' by the Euro-right, ignoring the large foreign populations that have gelled into European society

** - this is especially disturbing because, unlike the rest of Europe, Britain (like Canada, and somewhat similar to the US electoral college) uses a plurality system, which doesnt guarantee proportional representation (so you might only get 35% of the vote, but get 60% of the Seats, like Canada's Liberal Party used to). This is because you might win a district where BNP gets 35% of the vote, Labour gets 30% Consevatives get 30% and 5% other; so BNP win the seat. If this happens in 60% of the districts, BNP can walk away with 60% of the seats (meaning a British Supermajority! [dear god]) with only around 30-40% of the popular vote.


Note: Be equally warned - the article was written by Mark Steyn of Canada, who has offered some pretty racist remarks himself, and has long been a Bush/Blair neocon. (but when it comes to Neocons or the BNP, I generally think of it as the evil you know and the evil you dont). The article seems to be written to try to get moderate parties to adopt more watered down BNP policies... facism lite, brought to you by Mark Steyn.

 

[Nmil-ek]

People always flock to the easy answer during tough times, I have been unemployed for around 4 months now and with the lack of jobs (even charity work was impossible to find) that situation may not change anytime soon even I would find it comforting to have a scapegoat and im about as objective as it gets. And thats exactly what these parties give, its the immigrants fault, getting rid of this will fix this, leaving Europe will fix all out problems blah blah. Its tripe but its compelling tripe when the chips are down.

 

[Scolar Visari]

Now, I do realize the double irony of me posting, as I'm not in Europe and my avatar depicts a smiling fascist.

However I feel the real danger to Europe lies in this spread of Nanny States. The sort of bullshit that nations like England pull off on a regular basis would not be tolerated here in the U.S.A. Things such as http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198843/Homeowners-shocked-PCSOs-enter-open-windows-easy-thieves.html or http://sf.carnalnation.com/content/12357/4/jk-rowling-must-register-potential-pedophile ,would result in a shitstorm of epic proportions.

 

[Pandalisk]

Now, I do realize the double irony of me posting, as I'm not in Europe and my avatar depicts a smiling fascist.

However I feel the real danger to Europe lies in this spread of Nanny States. The sort of bullshit that nations like England pull off on a regular basis would not be tolerated here in the U.S.A. Things such as http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198843/Homeowners-shocked-PCSOs-enter-open-windows-easy-thieves.html or http://sf.carnalnation.com/content/12357/4/jk-rowling-must-register-potential-pedophile ,would result in a shitstorm of epic proportions.

thigns like this happen everywhere, even in america, they just somehow slip through the net because of idiots who think its a good idea.

Its just 2 seats the world is not going to pot,they have some good ideas, but then you run into that whole, being racist bastards wall.

 

[Booze Zombie]

The BNP are a problem, their leader quoted as saying that Hitler's book is his Bible, their members recorded as saying they just want to "shoot Indian people" and their policies involving locking down the country and fucking everyone who isn't British.

They are the definition of fascist, Neo-Nazi.

Sad as it may be, the whole world has fascist groups, remnants of backwards thinking, endured by the generations and re-emerging now in a time of weakness, just like when Hitler and the Nazi party popped up.

Also, the BNP gained popularity, not because they were voted for, but because no one voted for the other parties very much.

Now, I do realize the double irony of me posting, as I'm not in Europe and my avatar depicts a smiling fascist.

However I feel the real danger to Europe lies in this spread of Nanny States. The sort of bullshit that nations like England pull off on a regular basis would not be tolerated here in the U.S.A. Things such as http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198843/Homeowners-shocked-PCSOs-enter-open-windows-easy-thieves.html or http://sf.carnalnation.com/content/12357/4/jk-rowling-must-register-potential-pedophile ,would result in a shitstorm of epic proportions.

The burgulary thing's just police trying to keep crime down and the second one's just fuckin' stupid.

Also, you'd be surprised how fascist ol' 'Merica can be.

 

[Zinras]

Now, I do realize the double irony of me posting, as I'm not in Europe and my avatar depicts a smiling fascist.

However I feel the real danger to Europe lies in this spread of Nanny States. The sort of bullshit that nations like England pull off on a regular basis would not be tolerated here in the U.S.A. Things such as http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198843/Homeowners-shocked-PCSOs-enter-open-windows-easy-thieves.html or http://sf.carnalnation.com/content/12357/4/jk-rowling-must-register-potential-pedophile ,would result in a shitstorm of epic proportions.

England isn't "Europe", god damn. There are still some 49 other countries. Hilariously, though, Americans gladly handed over their rights and freedom in the name of anti-terrorism. Imagine going back to 1999 and telling someone that in two years, it will be possible for the American government to randomly arrest you for no reason and send you to a remote prison camp outside American soil, with zero obligation of releasing you or putting you in front of a judge.

Ah well, at least some of it is being fixed now. It's just scary how quickly you guys decided to let the government decide such things for you.

 

[Scolar Visari]

I know what I said.

thigns like this happen everywhere, even in america, they just somehow slip through the net because of idiots who think its a good idea.

Its just 2 seats the world is not going to pot,they have some good ideas, but then you run into that whole, being racist bastards wall.

And a hell of a wall it is. I understand that there are idiots like this all across the world, my outrage comes from people tolerating this kind of shit. What happened to the whole "the government serves the people" thing? Perhaps I'm just a little riled up but I feel that the governments of the world need a long overdue reality check. They should be reminded that THEY are at our mercy, not the other way around.

 

[Pandalisk]

I know what I said.

thigns like this happen everywhere, even in america, they just somehow slip through the net because of idiots who think its a good idea.

Its just 2 seats the world is not going to pot,they have some good ideas, but then you run into that whole, being racist bastards wall.

And a hell of a wall it is. I understand that there are idiots like this all across the world, my outrage comes from people tolerating this kind of shit. What happened to the whole "the government serves the people" thing? Perhaps I'm just a little riled up but I feel that the governments of the world need a long overdue reality check. They should be reminded that THEY are at our mercy, not the other way around.

im pretty sure that some that voted for the party, didnt actually see the evil in party at first inspection, a bit like people who first join a certain "religion" and i use that word loosely that shant be named, its only after words they look at who they voted for and go, "oh fuck it thats what i voted for?"

They are at the mercy of us and we are at the mercy of the armed Forces to be fair, but im just knit picking

 

[Scolar Visari]

Hi, me again.quote]

England isn't "Europe", god damn. There are still some 49 other countries. Hilariously, though, Americans gladly handed over their rights and freedom in the name of anti-terrorism. Imagine going back to 1999 and telling someone that in two years, it will be possible for the American government to randomly arrest you for no reason and send you to a remote prison camp outside American soil, with zero obligation of releasing you or putting you in front of a judge.

Ah well, at least some of it is being fixed now. It's just scary how quickly you guys decided to let the government decide such things for you.

I never handed my rights over to anyone. I have friends who were innocent victims of the patriot act.

Secondly, I know England isn't Europe god damnit. I was simply using England as a prime example of a nanny state. And don't get your undies in a bunch, I'm not speaking ill of the English people but of their government.

Now, I do realize the double irony of me posting, as I'm not in Europe and my avatar depicts a smiling fascist.

However I feel the real danger to Europe lies in this spread of Nanny States. The sort of bullshit that nations like England pull off on a regular basis would not be tolerated here in the U.S.A. Things such as http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198843/Homeowners-shocked-PCSOs-enter-open-windows-easy-thieves.html or http://sf.carnalnation.com/content/12357/4/jk-rowling-must-register-potential-pedophile ,would result in a shitstorm of epic proportions.

The burgulary thing's just police trying to keep crime down and the second one's just fuckin' stupid.

Also, you'd be surprised how fascist ol' 'Merica can be.

In America we have something similar to that burulary thing, it's called No-Knock warrents and it's responsible for many unecessary deaths.

I know what I said.

thigns like this happen everywhere, even in america, they just somehow slip through the net because of idiots who think its a good idea.

Its just 2 seats the world is not going to pot,they have some good ideas, but then you run into that whole, being racist bastards wall.

Me again.

im pretty sure that some that voted for the party, didnt actually see the evil in party at first inspection, a bit like people who first join a certain "religion" and i use that word loosely that shant be named, its only after words they look at who they voted for and go, "oh fuck it thats what i voted for?"

They are at the mercy of us and we are at the mercy of the armed Forces to be fair, but im just knit picking

We are not at the mercy of the armed forces, we are the armed forces. I don't know what time you live in but the days of a military elite who had no connection to the common people are gone. Our armed forces are made up of volunteers who feel the obligation to protect their country from threats both abroad and at home.

Edit: Sorry for the HTML clusterfuck.

 

[thiosk]

In communism (socialism too?), the government owns most of everything and tells you what to do. You spend what resources you are divvied out on beer and hookers, regardless of the government's position.

In facism, you still own stuff, but the government tells you what to do anyway. You still get your own money, which you spend on beer and hookers

In (pure) capitalism, you do what you want with all of your resources. Smart people open their own brewery and brothel, thus providing beer and hookers for the less smart. You can then enjoy beer and hookers yourself at no cost.

 

[Mekado]

Then again, they're *democratically elected officials* whether you agree with their views or not, SOME people obviously do.You either support democracy or not, not just when the guy you like is elected.

 

[Scolar Visari]

Then again, they're *democratically elected officials* whether you agree with their views or not, SOME people obviously do.You either support democracy or not, not just when the guy you like is elected.

In Democracy 51% can control 49% percent. I don't think that's right but, until I can find a better solution I'll just have to suffer through this.

 

[Mekado]

Then again, they're *democratically elected officials* whether you agree with their views or not, SOME people obviously do.You either support democracy or not, not just when the guy you like is elected.

In Democracy 51% can control 49% percent. I don't think that's right but, until I can find a better solution I'll just have to suffer through this.

I don't think that's right either, but it's the system we got, and the one we tout to be the end-all-to-be-all (unless someone we dosen't like gets elected )

Then again, as far as the BNP goes, they got 2 seats, TWO, it's not like they're a majority party and the prime minister is from the BNP, people are blowing this out of proportion.Yes, they are racist asswipes, but they're not the majority, and apart from yelling and pissing people off they have no real power.There are far-right parties in pretty much every western country, and none of them have any real power (see the Front National in France est 1972).

 

[Unreliable]

The thing is that they won 2 seats when they were expected to win zero (it was not a full general election where all the seats were in play).

And the 51%-49% thing is kind of a scare tactic (usually used by democracy opponents) creating a fantasy scenario where 51% of people are out to get the other 49%, rather than real, rational people who might be persuaded by argument and discussion. (It like the neocon argument: "Its okay to torture because what if a nuke was gonna go off and only Jack Bauer could save us by torturing people." "Well, gee whiz, I guess we better allow torture!" /sarcasm *sob*
same thing "What if 51% of people vote to kill the other 49%?" "Well, gee whiz, I guess we better outlaw democracy")

 

[Scolar Visari]

The thing is that they won 2 seats when they were expected to win zero (it was not a full general election where all the seats were in play).

And the 51%-49% thing is kind of a scare tactic (usually used by democracy opponents) creating a fantasy scenario where 51% of people are out to get the other 49%, rather than real, rational people who might be persuaded by argument and discussion. (It like the neocon argument: "Its okay to torture because what if a nuke was gonna go off and only Jack Bauer could save us by torturing people." "Well, gee whiz, I guess we better allow torture!" /sarcasm *sob*)

While the percentages may not be exact I can assure you that the meaning behind them is not a scare tactic. The whole idea of a majority controlling a minority is one that should not be looked favorably upon by any group.

 

[Unreliable]

Is this gonna turn into some sort of:
"You dont get to tell me to control my carbon emmisions!" uppity civil liberties rants, where everything that a society might want in terms of long term planning is an afront to your way of life?

 

[Scolar Visari]

Is this gonna turn into some sort of:
"You dont get to tell me to control my carbon emmisions!" uppity civil liberties rants, where everything that a society might want in terms of long term planning is an afront to your way of life?

I can assure you that it won't. You are new here and undoutably know little about me. However, I can assure that not only do I not rant but, I do not take any sort of uppity, holier than thou attitude with anyone here.

Concerning your reply I will state that I am a very large supporter of civil liberties. However, I realize that at times sacrifices must be made to ensure the greater good.