Usually I don't believe in "ends justifies the means" stuff, I never believed that Kira was in the right in Death Note for example. The concept that some guy you've never met can end your life instantly from around the world based on second or even third hand information is just terrifying. He never even bothered to fact check even when he wasn't completely insane.
Correction: You didn't see him fact-check onscreen. Given his goals, his criticisms of the other Kiras, the fact that he had access to the police database the entire time, his rationale that his dilligence, intelligence and sense of justice made him perhaps the only one who could accomplish his goals, and the results shown (compare the public's reaction to the Second Kira's debut and compare that to Kira) it seems far more likely that the requisite research was intended to be a given rather than nonexistent. There are only a few examples that really suggest otherwise, and those are seen onscreen to be crimes of passion rather than his general M.O.
Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner. Often in conflict with the more stable members of Marvel's cast of heroes,
sometimes due to his hybrid physiology making him *always drunk* (yes really) but often because his goals
are more about protecting Atlantis & it's citizens than helping land-dwellers. Couple this with the attitudes
& values of a bronze-age prince and you've got a tough nut to crack. He'll gladly save a drowning
child but he might well declare war on a human country if he thinks it threatens his people.
Riddick, exclusively in Pitch Black. You have no idea what he's going to do next, not because he's insane, but because he's simply beyond prediction. He's intelligent, brutal, and pragmatic, and you can never be totally sure what's planning or why. He's not simply a thug, but a dangerous, almost predatory presence as primal and lethal as the actual predators in the movie.
He's morally ambiguous because you really don't know -what- his morals are. Is he purely driven by survival? Is he selfish and pragmatic? Does he operate on instinct? It's hard to say because while you get evidence to support such assumptions, anything that simple just as quickly ends up invalidated by new revelations. Giving a simple answer is impossible because he doesn't cleave neatly to any of the stereotypes we expect.
Tyrion Lannister imo, at least from the TV series. He isn't a super nice guy, but he isn't a super evil guy. Definitely tries to help himself, but he also tries to help other people.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The antithesis of a morally-ambiguous character would be Captain Picard or Adolf Hitler. The clue-in is the prefix 'anti.' The word you are looking for is apotheosis, or epitome.
hermes200 said:
I don't really understand the fascination with Dexter. Probably, I haven't seen him enough (partially due to me not understanding him), but hasn't he killed people whose only "crime" was to discover he was a mass murderer? Or out of spite? He sounds a lot less like a morally ambiguous hero, than a villain with a good side the show tries too hard to sell.
In the series: yes and no, there are a few people who he kills who aren't murderers. None of them were even close to discovering who he was.
1) He kills a photographer. Dexter botches his investigation for some reason I forget. The actual killer is the photographers assistant, who the police catch in the next episode.
2) He gets into a fight with a guy, gets really pissed off and murders him. The person he kills is never named, they do not seem like a particularly nice guy, as I recall they pretty much started the confrontation, Dexter just escalated it and ended it because he was in a pretty high stress situation.
3) A pedophile who is stalking his daughter-in-law Aster.
4) The father of his girlfriend, who apart from being a generally awful father/person, was also blackmailing her.
3 and 4 are pretty much on the same level as killing murderers at least ethically similar in my opinion given the backgrounds on each. 1 & 2 are definitely fuckups and Dexter barely feels sorry about them at all. He comes close to killing one of the interns who is trying to ruin his life, but who hasn't discovered hes a murderer, but he stops himself from doing it. He never planned to kill Doakes when Doakes figured out who he was, it was Lila the 'English titty vampire' who killed Doakes.
There is a possible example of him killing someone for finding him out in the near future though not for certain:
The police captain is onto him. Released someone from jail she knew he wanted to kill and then had officers tail him. Didn't catch him actually doing it, but is now almost certain that it's him. Previews of the season finale show him considering killing her or simply going on the run.
I would say he isn't a bad guy but he is a morally ambiguous one not because of those things. But because he has a good side as well, he is shown multiple times to protect his foster-sister over choosing what he wants. Sacrificing both his brother and one of his girlfriends in order to protect her. He also had some pretty fucked up psychological stuff happen to him as a child. And a foster father who rather than taking him to a psychologist/therapist instead taught him how to kill people. He generally tries to be a good father, not because it's good cover for him(he abhors how the Trinity Killer used his family as cover,) he does it because he generally want's whats best for his son and foster-children.
He tries to help the police, he risked getting a phone call traced back to him or someone recognizing his voice in order to save Sgt Batista's life and give them info to stop a chemical attack. He also tries to help other killers who he feels were victimized(though it usually turns out poorly,) helping Lumen escape from serial killers and get revenge on them. He tries to help Travis Marshal because he thinks Travis is being more or less forced down the path by a domineering professor; he thinks that Travis can be saved and won't have to kill anymore. Dexter also does not kill a young boy, because the kid was raped and bullied by the person he murdered.
Anyways, longer post than I intended, my point is that it's not that simple. I do however think that hes generally a bad person, I just understand why he's gone down that path and have a hard time seeing anything in such black and white terms. That being said from the standpoint of storytelling, I do think that Dexter should die or at least be in jail for murder at the end of the series.
I agree with a lot of what's been said (in particular Riddick from "Pitch Black"). But as far as videogames go, Dr Polito (the real one) has to be a fantastic example. (Yep, I know I keep bringing up the "System Shock 2" avatar as an example of perfect character design. But there's a reason for that.)
Oh, and staying on the "Shock" thing, Andrew Ryan. A man of ultimate power who eventually betrays everything he professes to believe is "good", before being ironically destroyed by the one thing he's built that is the total antithesis of all of it.
Tyrion Lannister imo, at least from the TV series. He isn't a super nice guy, but he isn't a super evil guy. Definitely tries to help himself, but he also tries to help other people. He's willing to do
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The antithesis of a morally-ambiguous character would be Captain Picard or Adolf Hitler. The clue-in is the prefix 'anti.' The word you are look for is apotheosis, or epitome.
Tyrion Lannister imo, at least from the TV series. He isn't a super nice guy, but he isn't a super evil guy. Definitely tries to help himself, but he also tries to help other people. He's willing to do
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The antithesis of a morally-ambiguous character would be Captain Picard or Adolf Hitler. The clue-in is the prefix 'anti.' The word you are look for is apotheosis, or epitome.
Happens to the best of us. I was apparently so preoccupied that I posted with it saying 'the word you are look for' and I just straight up trailed off a sentence in the first paragraph without finishing it at all.
I'd go with Sandor Clegane, when you understand what he went through in his childhood, the motivations that spur him to continue and his actions throughout the series, you cannot help but feel sympathy for him, while also realising he's done some seriously messed up stuff. It also helps the morally ambiguous when you realise he is a somewhat good person, just covered by a horrid upbringing and what not.
Because people mention Kira: no.
He is not morally ambiguous, he is plain evil, he is highly intelligent and motivated and as soon as he gets power ti goes straight to "I want to be the god of a new world order". It doesn't matter that he tries to do good, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot believed they were doing good. Kira is just a crazy serial killer. He is quite compelling to watch(nobody ever ate potatoes chips like that).
I also think that Walter White is a massive dick who continually lets his ego get in his way and sabotages himself, only to turn around and blame others. He is like 15 year old me.
A good example would be everybody else from that show(except maybe hank and Walters kids)
I also think that Walter White is a massive dick who continually lets his ego get in his way and sabotages himself, only to turn around and blame others. He is like 15 year old me.
A good example would be everybody else from that show(except maybe hank and Walters kids)
Hit the nail on the head there. Walt's ego is ridiculous and has caused a lot of problems on that show. But that's the beauty of it; as smart, caring, and manipulative as he can be, he throws all care and foresight out the window when his ego is attacked. Are we all not guilty of that from time to time? From the same show, Gus Fring shows quite similar characteristics, and even as a villain, that guy is sometimes incredibly cool, and likeable.
Gus is killed at the end of season 4 because he blindly walked into a trap, in order to punish his enemy who he believed to be an informant to the DEA. Throughout the series, Gus was always cautious and one step ahead of everyone he dealt with, then he is killed in a fairly obvious trap because he is too enraptured with the thought of humiliating and killing his nemesis.
As you said, most characters in Breaking Bad are morally-ambiguous, and I think that is why the show is so successful. Most characters flip between awesome and terrible many times. You never really know what to feel. It's compelling and creates some interesting points for discussion. I've had many arguments over whether Walt is a dick or a tragic hero. It's always interesting to hear others' take on him.
Jayne from Firefly, of course. He's a little more than a thug but far less than a hero, and in all probability is ultimately loyal only to himself.
What was it he said? "There aren't any heroes... just people like me."
Adam Warlock (post Infinity Gauntlet) must qualify on a technicality.
Lelouch is the opposite situation as Light Yagami: he's less evil than he appears to be. But don't worry, Lulu, you'll always be my most FABULOUS royal terrorist psychopath.
teebeeohh said:
Because people mention Kira: no.
He is not morally ambiguous, he is plain evil, he is highly intelligent and motivated and as soon as he gets power ti goes straight to "I want to be the god of a new world order". It doesn't matter that he tries to do good, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot believed they were doing good. Kira is just a crazy serial killer. He is quite compelling to watch(nobody ever ate potatoes chips like that).
The Ice King from Adventure Time. Before he was just painted as a sociopath that didn't care for anyone. But then it was revealed that it wasn't his fault but his Ice Crown causing him to slowly go mad. Before he goes completely insane he makes a video begging for forgiveness if he does anything that harms people and asks for them to watch over him until he can regain his sanity. He is really such a tragic character whose alignment seems more like chaotic neutral since he does good sometime, but then he does bad.
I felt emotion, and it hurt...
Though the harder hitting part comes from the episode "I Remember You" when it hits you in song form.
"Marceline, is it just you and me in the wreckage of the world?
That must be so confusing for a little girl.
And I know you're going to need me here with you...
but I'm losing myself, and I'm afraid you're going to lose me, too...
This magic keeps me alive,
but it's making me crazy,
and I need to save you,
but who's going to save me?
Please forgive me for whatever I do
...when I don't remember you"
Most of the ones I could think of have been said but I have 2 more.
John Constantine. The man only ever does anything for the thrill. He is every bit as likly to kick the crap out of good guys as the bad.
Ebenezar McCoy- The Dresden Files. Ebenezar is a member of the White Council of wizards. He was the teacher of the main character Harry Dresden and taught him to belive in the 7 Laws of Magic (Shown below).
Thou shalt not kill by use of magic
Thou shalt not transform others
Thou shalt not invade the mind of another
Thou shalt not enthrall another
Thou shalt not reach beyond the Borders of Life
Thou shalt not swim against the Currents of Time
Thou shalt not seek beyond the Outer Gates
It is later revealed that he is the Blackstaff, the wetworks man of the council, who is empowered to break the laws as he sees fit in order to protect the council and further their agender. He caused the New Madrid earthquake of 1812, the Krakatoa eruptions of 1883 and the Tunguska Event of 1908 as well as using magic to kill innocent humans who were being mind controled. He is not only morally ambiguous but the ultimate hipocrate.
Going to go with Guts from Berserk, he is the Anti-Hero, especially due to having one fucked up life
His mother gave birth to him while she was dead and then was found by a band of mercenaries were he was forced into battle at a young age. After his step father sold him to be raped (were he then developed phobia of people simply touching him) and tried to kill, he was forced to run and fend for himself. After awhile he met Griffith and Casca and joined the Band of the Hawks although he was uneasy about them, but after awhile he felt like they were his real family and this is were things get fucked up. After Guts left the Hawks after defeating Griffith, Griffith is then imprisoned for having sex with the King's daughter and is tortured for a year until Guts and the Hawks come and rescue him, however Griffith is physically and mentally broken, in his despair he activated a magic macguffin he had and summons the demons known as the Godhand and agree to make Griffith one of them if he sacrifices the Hawks (except Guts and Casca) to which he agrees. It is then that Guts is forced to watch the people he viewed as his friends and family being eaten by demons, being forced to watch Griffith (now known as Femto)rape Casca in front of him as well as having lost his left arm and right eye and just to make Gut's life an even bigger hell, as a result of what happened Casca was driven insane and both her and Guts were branded with the Brand of Sacrifice were even if they did survive the events of the Eclipse, demons will proceed to hunt them down and kill them also the brand will cause intense pain in the presence of demons.
Going to go with Guts from Berserk, he is the Anti-Hero, especially due to having one fucked up life
His mother gave birth to him while she was dead and then was found by a band of mercenaries were he was forced into battle at a young age. After his step father sold him to be raped (were he then developed phobia of people simply touching him) and tried to kill, he was forced to run and fend for himself. After awhile he met Griffith and Casca and joined the Band of the Hawks although he was uneasy about them, but after awhile he felt like they were his real family and this is were things get fucked up. After Guts left the Hawks after defeating Griffith, Griffith is then imprisoned for having sex with the King's daughter and is tortured for a year until Guts and the Hawks come and rescue him, however Griffith is physically and mentally broken, in his despair he activated a magic macguffin he had and summons the demons known as the Godhand and agree to make Griffith one of them if he sacrifices the Hawks (except Guts and Casca) to which he agrees. It is then that Guts is forced to watch the people he viewed as his friends and family being eaten by demons, being forced to watch Griffith (now known as Femto)rape Casca in front of him as well as having lost his left arm and right eye and just to make Gut's life an even bigger hell, as a result of what happened Casca was driven insane and both her and Guts were branded with the Brand of Sacrifice were even if they did survive the events of the Eclipse, demons will proceed to hunt them down and kill them also the brand will cause intense pain in the presence of demons.
OT: Lee Everett from The Walking Dead game.
I know he's the protagonist and is generally a good guy but for a lot of the time he's forced to make hard, and often fucked up decisions.
If Clementine is the epitome of good in that game, then Lee represents the struggle to retain that childlike innocence in a world completely ruined.
Ohh, also, Nier. From, well... Nier. Don't want to spoil much though.
Dexter from the Dexter series is also good. He seems a bit more polarizing in the books, but he's still a pretty fucking cool character in the TV show.
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