Female Friendzone?

[Vladimir Stamenov]

People need to get out there, be rejected, collect some horrible dating stories like pokemon, live life. This is the only way to gain some f'ing perspective and maturity so that when you are ready to date someone who matters, you can cut through all the game playing bullshit. That is always my advice to people. If you put yourself out there and it works out great, if it doesn't then you lick your wounds, learn something and move on... it will just become another funny story you tell later in life anyway.

Hold up. You seriously tell me you can't understand why someone would be scared shitless by dating? Like, who the fuck does that, in either college or high school? Most of my peers, whether they're popular, douchebags, jicks, nerds, whatever got together with people they alreday knew as friends or acquaintances. No one's gone on dates that were officially set and so on. And, yes, I am 18 years old and my peers are teenagers, but that's exactly it - no one does that kind of stuff when they're our age, so official dating later on is made even more implausible. I'm shy when ONE person I don't know shows up when I'm hanging out with friends, how the fuck will I go on a date with a complete stranger?

 

[Stasisesque]

People need to get out there, be rejected, collect some horrible dating stories like pokemon, live life. This is the only way to gain some f'ing perspective and maturity so that when you are ready to date someone who matters, you can cut through all the game playing bullshit. That is always my advice to people. If you put yourself out there and it works out great, if it doesn't then you lick your wounds, learn something and move on... it will just become another funny story you tell later in life anyway.

Hold up. You seriously tell me you can't understand why someone would be scared shitless by dating? Like, who the fuck does that, in either college or high school? Most of my peers, whether they're popular, douchebags, jicks, nerds, whatever got together with people they alreday knew as friends or acquaintances. No one's gone on dates that were officially set and so on. And, yes, I am 18 years old and my peers are teenagers, but that's exactly it - no one does that kind of stuff when they're our age, so official dating later on is made even more implausible. I'm shy when ONE person I don't know shows up when I'm hanging out with friends, how the fuck will I go on a date with a complete stranger?

I went to an all-girl's school, all the boyfriends (for the sake of argument; no "relationship" lasted more than a few weeks) I had during that time therefore were guys I knew, but did not consider friends. However, all of those failed "relationships" turned in to friendships. Fair enough, my peers were in a situation most people are not, but the friends I had who went to mixed sex schools seemed to follow the same formula: You date a person you know but are not friends with. That's how some, granted not all, teenagers learn to date which they then apply to dating in later life which can and, at least amongst my friends, does lead to going on formal dates with virtual strangers.

The more people you meet in life and the more situations you end up in, the less shy you can become. I have anxiety disorder which gets the best of me sometimes, but my shyness has decreased over the years so as a personal example it is possible. I'm not saying it absolutely will get easier as you get older, but it certainly can.

 

[Vegosiux]

The more people you meet in life and the more situations you end up in, the less shy you can become. I have anxiety disorder which gets the best of me sometimes, but my shyness has decreased over the years so as a personal example it is possible. I'm not saying it absolutely will get easier as you get older, but it certainly can.

It does get easier when you get older, but for different reasons - people tend to stop caring as much about relationships for the sake of being in a relationship. At 16, when all your peers are dating, and you're single, it's the end of the world. At 35 when all your peers are married with children and you're single...well, no biggie. No need to go through the phonebook in hopes you'll stumble upon something that will stick.

 

[Stasisesque]

The more people you meet in life and the more situations you end up in, the less shy you can become. I have anxiety disorder which gets the best of me sometimes, but my shyness has decreased over the years so as a personal example it is possible. I'm not saying it absolutely will get easier as you get older, but it certainly can.

It does get easier when you get older, but for different reasons - people tend to stop caring as much about relationships for the sake of being in a relationship. At 16, when all your peers are dating, and you're single, it's the end of the world. At 35 when all your peers are married with children and you're single...well, no biggie. No need to go through the phonebook in hopes you'll stumble upon something that will stick.

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

As for relationships, I don't know, most of my friends are married and it does bring out the desperation in some of my single friends. Biological clock and all that, there is a deadline on marriage and children for some people. True relationships lose their social status symbolism but I cannot agree that people care less as they get older, they care for different reasons.

 

[sarkeizen]

**snip**

I notice you removed the comment about me backpedaling (which I still have in my inbox). Went back and read my original post, did you?

Not exactly, I reread your most current post and decided that you still haven't really admitted you approached the problem poorly. Sure glad you're here to keep me honest.

I believe in what I have observed. I have observed something.

That's not really the issue. What is, is your interpretation of what you have observed. To wit:

The Friend Zone rules are fictional.

I don't know exactly why you've suddenly jumped back to a far more vague term but if the "Friend Zone rules" include our discussion about announcing yourself as a romantic candidate sooner rather than later - and sooner having an advantage in success. Then my points stand,

i) You have presented no compelling reason that what you observed is actually the thing in question. Observing that someone you refuse to date early on is still someone you won't date later on is not sufficient to make your point that the timing doesn't matter. People unwittingly make incorrect value judgments every day. For example if you ask people to arrange a group of objects in order of quality the majority of people will do so even if there is no difference. Not only that but people will post hoc rationalize their decisions ("Oh this one is shinier","I like the texture of this one"). So just because you think it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to you.

ii) You have presented no compelling reason that your observations are the general case.

I'm all for following the data but if you don't assign a rational level of confidence to your data - which you don't appear to have - then what's the difference between what you do and some bigot from the sticks? At least some of them formed their beliefs about women, minorities, etc... from what they observed too. The only thing that makes one position rational and the other irrational is the level of confidence we are willing to put above what the data can reasonably explain. The more you think a small dataset explains the less rational you are being.

You have other evidence? Fine. Sharing it is what this thread is about. I had no intention of criticizing anyone else's evidence.

I don't understand how you can, in one sentence relegate something someone says to "baseless musing" and then make the above claim in another.

You didn't provide evidence and when I commented that your ideas did not conform to my experimental data

I did actually, what I provided you was a taste of how data is evaluated by a variety of fields. For example if you were to check Sackett's Handbook of Evidence Based Medicine you would see that what you have done is at best "C" class evidence (and I'd call that being rather generous). You want to say "It's just my opinion"? Fine. If you want to claim that your rather poor research can be generalized. Math says no.

you yelled at me about "research".

All of a sudden I was yelling? Ever think you're being just a little manipulative here?

When I offered you not one but two olive branches, suggesting that perhaps we simply agree to disagree

Of course you were being ever so gracious by calling what I said: "baseless musing". Even in this post you seem to imply that you still consider yourself right. That's not much of an olive branch when faced with a pretty clear picture that whatever data you have is pretty poor in quality.

Try to see this from my side. Suppose you had said that you *observed* that women were intellectually inferior to men. Should I "agree to disagree" with you there? Why not? Well, for one there's a wealth of information that says otherwise. Now ask yourself what if I didn't have a that information demonstrating intellectual equality between women and men, for example lets say it was the year 1820 instead of 2013. Should we just "agree to disagree" then too? I'd say no.

, you called me arrogant.

And so you appeared, by definition in fact. When you let your opinions ride significantly beyond the evidence what else is there driving your confidence but ego? How is that not arrogance?

Well, if you want arrogant, then here we go. Talking to you about this is no longer worth my time or attention. Welcome to my ignore list.

I'm sorry being corrected like this makes you think that's a reasonable response but I don't really consider anything I've said improper or disproportionate. You are always welcome to return to the discussion should you choose to.

 

[ellieallegro]

Seems to me you're assuming there's nothing to experience outside the world you chose to experience.

And of course you'll be getting the vibe that everyone who chose a different path than you is covering for their own insecurities, I mean, that was obvious from the first post you made in the thread.

Indeed that might be true. I choose not to live in a world where people would rather retreat from the world rather then experience it. That is certainly something I am willing to accept except that I don't fault people for having insecurities: I fault them for not doing something about it. Big difference.

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

As for relationships, I don't know, most of my friends are married and it does bring out the desperation in some of my single friends. Biological clock and all that, there is a deadline on marriage and children for some people. True relationships lose their social status symbolism but I cannot agree that people care less as they get older, they care for different reasons.

People and their deadlines... I won't get off on a rant here about the marriage industry and baby veneration that we have going here (in the US). I remember more a few years ago I went to a bachelorette party for a friend of a friend and I asked the bride what she was looking forward to the most about being married... the wedding, she said. Not spending her life with her partner or starting a family or anything like that. Nope, I just want mah partay. Facepalm.

It's not that people don't care when they get older they just give people more slack because they know dating sucks and it's awkward since they have probably have had the same shared experience. I've asked out quite a few people and have been asked out by about the same number and you can tell if someone is being honest even if they are a bit nervous or a little awkward. My advice is to get over that initially hangup of rejection and don't pine away for someone that might not feel the same way or even be available.

If you are shy or have an anxiety disorder, their are ways to manage those conditions. Don't let it become an excuse.
If you just want to be single that is fine too as long as it is because you want to be single not because you fear rejection.

 

[sarkeizen]

There is a significant amount of evidence to suggest that when people (men and women) encounter something that they don't know how to evaluate we draw on various, and somewhat irrational methods of assigning a value. Once this evaluation is set, subsequent evaluations will be made *relative* to the initial one. i.e. if the first price you see for a product is $1000 and the second is $200. You will consider the second price to be a good deal - even if it is the nominal price for the product.

Point being is that the belief that establishing yourself as a candidate for a romantic relationship to a particular person early on might have a significantly positive effect on successfully having a relationship with that person isn't unreasonable.

You're reaching a lot there. It does not in the least bit follow from that example that people will not change their opinions over time.

I think you might be misunderstanding my position. Bara_no_Hime appeared to assert that timing makes absolutely no difference (I assume she means in the short term). If she wouldn't date you now, she wouldn't have dated you a eight months before. I'm giving this as a counter-example to that point. People will evaluate irrationally when they have little to compare on. So someone a girl wouldn't date today could easily have been accepted when the requirements were less rational.

I'm not at all arguing that from that point forward people couldn't change their minds *but* I would argue that the decision has become more complicated at that point. Losing an established relationship (friend or lover) has a cost associated with it that wasn't there before. If people are acting rationally at this point it's entirely possible that either relationship will persist in it's prior state. As the cost of harming the friendship of someone who waited might be considered too high to merit the potential gains of a romantic relationship OR the negative characteristics of someone in a romantic relationship might be considered not high enough to merit terminating a relationship.

As an aside I love your username and I want to have it's babies.

 

[Vegosiux]

Indeed that might be true. I choose not to live in a world where people would rather retreat from the world rather then experience it. That is certainly something I am willing to accept except that I don't fault people for having insecurities: I fault them for not doing something about it. Big difference.

There's nowhere to "retreat" in this world unless you go the monk-in-the-mountains route. But, again, I understand that some people don't seem to be able to comprehend the simple fact that there's no "universal" checklist that works the same for everyone and that there's nothing any person, ever, "must" do in order to make some contrived rite of passage into "maturity".

Of course I don't fault people for choosing what way they wish to experience the world in. I fault them for choosing to stay closed-minded about it. Big difference.

 

[sarkeizen]

The example does show people's perspectives can be skewed with little information, but what follows when more information is gained isn't spoken of. But I am satisfied with the reasoning, people do have other concerns and the effect of time on their opinions isn't easy to gauge due to the complexity.

I will add that there are some experiments which have some counter-intuitive outcomes with regard to decision making. So Dan Ariely had his students write the last two digits of their SIN number beside a bunch of different products (Bottles of wine, trackball, some book, I can't remember the others). Then he asked them to indicate if they would pay that amount (e.g. $79 if their last two digits were 79) for each object.

If anchoring to initial values decays easily, in comparison to other things you would expect that there would be no correlation between those willing to pay $XX and their SIN digits being XX. In fact it appeared that this arbitrary anchor affected people's internal price sense by a factor of 2-3x (difference between top and bottom 20% IIRC).

It's not the only thing that matters clearly but it's not a bad explanation for at least one definition of being "friend zoned" which is when a perfectly viable candidate for a romantic relationship can't be viewed that way by the person they care about.

That said, I do consider people who moan about it hugely to come off as thinking they're entitled to something. People act irrationally, sometimes that puts us on the wrong side of the curve. Either decide that some set of actions will increase your chances - and do them or accept that the friendship isn't worth risking.

I was doing homework when I made it and Dijkstra's algorithm was relevant so... XD

Dijkstra is also famous for his quote about computer science being about computers in the same way that astronomy is about telescopes.

 

[Stasisesque]

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

As for relationships, I don't know, most of my friends are married and it does bring out the desperation in some of my single friends. Biological clock and all that, there is a deadline on marriage and children for some people. True relationships lose their social status symbolism but I cannot agree that people care less as they get older, they care for different reasons.

People and their deadlines... I won't get off on a rant here about the marriage industry and baby veneration that we have going here (in the US). I remember more a few years ago I went to a bachelorette party for a friend of a friend and I asked the bride what she was looking forward to the most about being married... the wedding, she said. Not spending her life with her partner or starting a family or anything like that. Nope, I just want mah partay. Facepalm.

It's not that people don't care when they get older they just give people more slack because they know dating sucks and it's awkward since they have probably have had the same shared experience. I've asked out quite a few people and have been asked out by about the same number and you can tell if someone is being honest even if they are a bit nervous or a little awkward. My advice is to get over that initially hangup of rejection and don't pine away for someone that might not feel the same way or even be available.

If you are shy or have an anxiety disorder, their are ways to manage those conditions. Don't let it become an excuse.
If you just want to be single that is fine too as long as it is because you want to be single not because you fear rejection.

I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused about what you're suggesting here.

I was explaining to someone that shyness can be overcome with age, and often is. I wasn't, as I said in the post you quoted, actually relating it to dating at all, just shyness in general. I used my anxiety disorder as an example of someone who has a genuine medical condition and yet can still portray an air of confidence in public and my private life. Not once have I used it as an excuse for anything, in fact I did point out it can be learned to be controlled (and often without any medication). Also never have I claimed to be afraid of rejection, I've never even said I'm single (I am not, and have had a pretty active dating life so far, though I hope it's over now as I have found the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with).

I'm not sure if you were addressing me directly, but it certainly looks like it and I'm rather shocked at your ability to assume so very many things I haven't said.

And again, as I have now said twice: among my peers (27 year olds plus) relationships are still fairly important. More important for those who are wanting to settle down and start families, less so among those who aren't looking for that sort of relationship. They are no longer seen as a status symbol but more a necessity, and I don't see anything wrong with that opinion. I don't want a family, but many of my friends do and there is a deadline on that, whether you accept it as a valid reason to start a relationship or not, the menopause kicks in eventually and some start planning early.

 

[dalek sec]

For me the term "Friendzone" just means pretty much two people are friends, one asks the other out, said friend say's they aren't interested in the other person like that and that's frakking it.

I wish I was in the "Friendzone", would mean I have friends and the like. D:

For me since Highschool I've been a very lonely person for the most part. Sure I have people to talk to at work but for the most part I just stay in my room for the rest of the time. I'll be honest, I am painfully shy and my confidence just isn't there, there are some days I can't even stand to look at myself in the mirror. For me I've mostly lost any hope so I'm not sure where to begin.

I'll admit this sounds quite a bit like "poor me!" but I figured I should be truthful here. Well that and I'm shit at reading signs from people and usally always think of ways to try and squirm out of talking to a girl, usally horrible fear and the like.

 

[sarkeizen]

I am painfully shy and my confidence just isn't there, there are some days I can't even stand to look at myself in the mirror.

Out of curiosity (and apologies for the derail) what's the big problem?

I mean I get that there are less social pressures on the internet but you don't seem to have a problem talking here.

The easiest way to talk to people is to be observant and ask them about the stuff they appear to like. Even if you can't decode social mores you can always come up with rules to compensate. For example, if you're doing all of the talking(that is all they are doing is signaling they understand "oh", "uh huh", "I see") for say two or three minutes you can make an excuse to, politely end the conversation. If someone is being polite then the conversation ends. If they try and perpetuate it then you're probably not talking too much.

 

[ellieallegro]

Are you sure she meant it like that? I'd think she might just have been really excited for the most immediate and obvious event. Perhaps she didn't think of it as in depth as you did and just gave an answer based on her excitement.

Oh she meant it like that. And if I wasn't sure at the time... I am now since her marriage lasted barely a year. But I digress.

There's nowhere to "retreat" in this world unless you go the monk-in-the-mountains route. But, again, I understand that some people don't seem to be able to comprehend the simple fact that there's no "universal" checklist that works the same for everyone and that there's nothing any person, ever, "must" do in order to make some contrived rite of passage into "maturity".

Of course I don't fault people for choosing what way they wish to experience the world in. I fault them for choosing to stay closed-minded about it. Big difference.

No man, must, must. Sure, sure. Maybe we will just agree to disagree on this point because I do think their are key experiences and education (formal or otherwise) that one must have in order to fully understand the world and say with certainty that if one died tomorrow, one wouldn't have any regrets about not having lived a full life. Call it maturity, call it a "universal" checklist if you will. Why bother getting up in the morning otherwise if one didn't want to have adventures and check things off a bucket list. Again, as I said, you are obviously welcome to your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

I was as well. Shyness is shyness: In daily life or in respect to dating.

I'm not sure if you were addressing me directly, but it certainly looks like it and I'm rather shocked at your ability to assume so very many things I haven't said.

Let's back up a bit. I wasn't speaking directly to you. I was only commenting and building upon what you said. Apologies if you assumed that I was being insensitive towards what is a horrible and valid medical condition. I have a few friends with anxiety disorder and they feel even stronger about it than I do about it not being an excuse to go out. If they can manage their fear of rejection then I see no reason that other people shouldn't as well. Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[sarkeizen]

I do think their are key experiences and education (formal or otherwise) that one must have in order to fully understand the world and say with certainty that if one died tomorrow, one wouldn't have any regrets about not having lived a full life.

This statement seems a little strange to me. i) What does "fully understand the world" mean? Does anyone understand the world fully? If this is hyperbole then what percentage of the world need be understood? ii) How can one be certain that they wouldn't be dying with regrets? (sorry for rearranging your words a bit but I don't know if the dead can have regrets).