Fighting Game AI and My Issues With It.

[Ninjamedic]

Now, I myself have been playing 2D fighters for awhile, and the main thing that pisses me off in this genre is cheap AI. Between revising for my exams, finishing second level education and starting off my Chaos Army, I haven't had much time to play them to keep my skills up. So after getting an arcade stick (as it was 20 euros cheaper than a new controller) I started easing myself into fighting games again. After getting to an okay level of skill in CVS2 and MVC3 I turned my attention back to my favorite, SSFIV.

I pick Akuma and start playing the Arcade mode on easy (getting myself used to to game again). After doing quiet well in most of the fights I get to the rival fight against Ryu. The round starts and.... HADOUKEN! HADOUKEN! HADOUKEN! HADOUKEN! SHORYUKEN!!1! Ryu Wins! Perfect!
Confused, I attempted to counter his spamming with leg sweeps and teleports, nothing worked. Every move I used against him he would counter with a SHORYUKEN! even when he was knocked down. This was unfair given that there were zero frames between him either recovering/blocking/getting up and his SHORYUKEN! When he knocked me down he timed his SHORYUKEN!!1! to hit me as I left the recovery frames giving me no time to defend or block, setting me up for an infinite cycle. Eventually, I stepped back and left it in case I lost it and Broke something.

Then I began to think "how come the AI is able to pull off these impossibly cheap timings and use moves faster than any player realistically could?" The reason is simple: The CPU doesn't have to input any move commands. When a player inputs a move, it will take at least a split second or more to work, while the CPU isn't restricted by this. This means the only thing holding back the AI is its reflexes, and since its the CPU...... you can see where the cheapness can come from.

So instead of angsting I propose a solution, we either make the AI input the moves realistically or we put a lag onto the moves activation.
Example; instead of AI Ryu simply thinking "shoryuken" and it happening instantly, how about making it think "forward", "down", "down-forward punch" or putting in a delay of a fraction of a second between the AI thinking "shoryuken" and the move activating?

What do you think of my idea? Has it been done before? Or is it stupid?
If this comes off as me bitching for sucking, I apologize.

Apologies on the thread spam, my intrewebs screwed up again.

 

[Grabbin Keelz]

In the new Mortal Kombat, I found it kind of strange how special moves that require like 5 buttons to execute can be done instantly by A.I.'s. Not only that, but when you're about to do a special move, they can tell by the buttons your pressing and react before you even execute it. However, I was able to find a few flaws on some opponents. When fighting Shao Kahn (the final boss) if you stand just the right distance he'll taunt you, allowing you to hit him.
A.I.'s are just weird.

 

[Ninjamedic]

In the new Mortal Kombat, I found it kind of strange how special moves that require like 5 buttons to execute can be done instantly by A.I.'s. Not only that, but when you're about to do a special move, they can tell by the buttons your pressing and react before you even execute it.

That's what I was thinking, it got annoying in the story mode where they would put you against two enemies and they could rattle of the Tag Combos effortlessly to wipe out my heath bar.

 

[Pandalisk]

Ah but wheres the challenge in that eh?

spose it could work, just put a timer on each move it makes, say a good solid second or two before it can react. Though you run the risk of lobotomizing it if your too harsh with the reaction time handicap.

In the new Mortal Kombat, I found it kind of strange how special moves that require like 5 buttons to execute can be done instantly by A.I.'s. Not only that, but when you're about to do a special move, they can tell by the buttons your pressing and react before you even execute it. However, I was able to find a few flaws on some opponents. When fighting Shao Kahn (the final boss) if you stand just the right distance he'll taunt you, allowing you to hit him.
A.I.'s are just weird.

God damn Noob cybot!
Though to be honest i was no better, Military stance is hardcore.

Haha, i know right? you'd just uppercut him and then run away, i opted to jump over him and upperut him from the back all the time, it was the most tense game of leap frog EVAR

 

[Pearwood]

Am I the only one seeing this thread posted four times?

 

[Ninjamedic]

Ah but wheres the challenge in that eh?

spose it could work, just put a timer on each move it makes, say a good solid second or two before it can react. Though you run the risk of lobotomizing it if your too harsh with the reaction time handicap.

I was thinking it would force the AI to utilize more of the normals and other specials as opposed to spamming fireballs at impossible speeds.

 

[Ninjamedic]

Am I the only one seeing this thread posted four times?

My interwebs must have screwed up again. Wheres the Red Guard when you need them?

 

[4RM3D]

The CPU is suppose to be that good. However, this should not be the case on easy. So it's just bad tweaking of the game.

I have tried BlazBlue on the highest difficulty. Haha, is that even humanly possible?

 

[razelas]

This is a completely legitimate complaint. Cheap AI behavior in fighting games is a relic of the video game arcade age, when losing meant more money for the arcade establishments. It's a fucking shame some game devs are lazy and unwilling to move beyond.

 

[SonicKaos]

If the computer truely is playing that way, then the problem is not with the AI, but you're unwillingness to find a solution to the problem. If he keeps throwing fireballs, there are ways around it. If he always srk on wake up, there are way around it.

In reality, the computer is acting like a real person would. If you can't figure out a way around what he's doing, he'll keep doing it because it's clearly working. No reason to stop until the other person figures out a way to punish for his predictability.

If you ever make it to the hardest difficulty settings, then you'll know what cheap AI is. On easy though, they're meant to be predictable so they're not challenging... I don't mean to bash your skill level, but I believe it's the fact that you're refusing to change your approach despite the fact that it's not working. The computer will fall for the same tricks a real person will (especially on easier difficulty levels), but they also learn to adapt much faster then a human does because they know you're inputs before you finish them.

Just get some more practice, learn to bait and punish reversal moves (like shoryukens), and you'll be able to figure out a couple ways around every situation. Thus your problems will disappear... until you get to hardest settings where the computer knows every single thing you do =\

Bonus tip: Shoryukens have some invincibility frames on start up. Therefore if you are doing ANYTHING but blocking, the srk will hit you. That's why he's hitting you even when you're arm is through his head. learning frame data and frame traps come with time.

 

[SageRuffin]

If the computer truely is playing that way, then the problem is not with the AI, but you're unwillingness to find a solution to the problem. If he keeps throwing fireballs, there are ways around it. If he always srk on wake up, there are way around it.

I was about to blast you on this until I read the rest of the post.

But in all seriousness, there really are such things as "button-reading" AI. The MK games are notorious for it, a prime example being Jade in UMK3. If you've never played it, she has a special move that makes her completely invincible to projectiles. Combine this with what's known as MK Walking [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MKWalker] and you have a CPU opponent who can "switch on" that invincibility while running towards you - which is literally impossible for a human player to do mind you - and will go to town on your face, multiple times.

Oh, and CPU Jade does that even in MK 2011.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

UNLIMITED RAGNA

To add to the usual AI troubles, Blazblue has "Unlimited" characters in Score Attack. They are all broken as fuck, with crazy powers.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

The problem is, if AI had the same limitations as a human it would be stupidly easy to beat. AI are dumb, pure and simple. The don't understand zoning, they don't understand mindgames. You can't really outsmart a computer, but then again, a computer can only do what its programmed to. It has a pattern, underneath it all, and that will ALWAYS be exploitable. Once you see the pattern you adjust your play to it and bam, the computer is history. Even on the highest difficulties. The only way it can keep up is by blatantly cheating.

So, is letting the computer cheat inputs and do moves completely on reaction cheap? Yep. Could it win any other way? Not at all. You either have to live with a cheating AI, or a boringly crappy one.

 

[PlasmaFrog]

"FOOT DIVE-FOOT DIVE-FOOT DIVE-FOOT DIVE-FOOT DIVE-FOOT DIVE-FOOT DIVE!"

 

[FalloutJack]

I use fighting games as proof that AI doesn't exist. It's not AI or thinking, and probably nobody ever will make one. Fighting games are just a looooong string of if-then statements, not executed strategies and tactics put through a logical computer mind. It paints a pretty picture when it's good, but it's a load of shit when it's bad.

The CPU is suppose to be that good. However, this should not be the case on easy. So it's just bad tweaking of the game.

I have tried BlazBlue on the highest difficulty. Haha, is that even humanly possible?

Incidentally, I've seen some real and scary pros playing Blazblue whose moves flow like honey when even using Tager. If anyone can beat it...it's those guys.

 

[Grand_Arcana]

Tvtropes has entrees on this; The Computer is a Cheating Bastard amongst others.

I agree with you, insane AIs are the reason I couldn't get into fighting games until SCIV. Even now, Soul Calibur is the only fighting game I'm willing to play.

EDIT: There are almost always moves that severely punish the AI, many of which are unintuitive. The problem is finding these moves.

 

[Legion IV]

Am sorry the fact your complaining about easy mode in SSF4? thats just silly. High level players can pull of anything Easy level computers. AI in any fighting game even on the hardest is EXTREMMLY easy unless its original Super turbo because theres always predictable.

My friend i suggest you return to fighting game bootcamp for a few weeks, play with a human player please. Wait why should i give you any advice you claim your a fighting game fan then say Zoning is spamming? Disgusting just disgusting. you come at us like a fighting game fan.

 

[GrimHeaper]

The CPU is suppose to be that good. However, this should not be the case on easy. So it's just bad tweaking of the game.

I have tried BlazBlue on the highest difficulty. Haha, is that even humanly possible?

I can't even do all of the tutorial on the game.
Also Tager is unfair to an insane amount I went online and basically only won one match against a level 40 went from level 1 to 4.
And then I never won a match again.
I have to be really cheap to just beat Hazama on beginner mode on the end of the story.
That game is just hard.

 

[Danceofmasks]

The AI in fighting games are nothing short of "cutting corners."

Starcraft 2 AI makes decisions based on what it sees .. sure, it can manage to do everything it wants simultaneously, and in an RTS that should be the biggest of advantages, right?

Fighting games should not be cheating.
Sure, if you play on hard mode or whatever, pull off combos that require ridiculous amounts of precision to do (after all, that's rote timing, which human players can master), but being able to do special moves on reaction, to a jump before you take off, is fucked up.