Fighting Games: The Dividing Line

[IAmTheVoid]

What's happened to fighting games? All the big titles now- Tekken, Street Fighter, BlazBlue- seem to have all evolved into this one fighting game entity: a panoply of characters (good) with varying personalities and backstories (good) fighting on lavishly decorated and sometimes interactive stages (great) and fighting using about one thousand moves, each with their own array of horrible combinations.

That's a great combo of plus points marred by one big, bad point, at least for me.

I have no problem with games pandering towards the kind of gamers who want to learn a games ins and outs and play it on a 'higher' level. But this blocks me out. Other fighting games- like the Smash Bros. series, to take an example- have proven that you don't need a massive collection of inputs to make a game which requires a quick mind and quicker fingers and be enjoyable to all kinds of players- the button masher, the casual, the pro, and any other generalisation of a gamer you want to come up with.

This all arose when I looked at the trailers for BlazBlue and thought that it looked great. Talked with a few forum members on another forum about it.

Me: "Does it have long inputs? The characters look great and all, but I don't want to sit in training mode for two hours trying to get to grips with one character."

Them: "Er, sorry. It's got long inputs. It's easier than most to get into but it's still pretty tough."

Commence raging on my part.

Is this just me? Fighting games for me are becoming a medium which is less and less easy to enjoy, unless you're playing with somebody who's just as confused as you (and even then you're scratching the surface of the game and feel like complete incompetents). These long inputs just seem to be unnecessary and detrimental to the experience of beating the ever-loving crap out of somebody. Your thoughts, gentlemen.

 

[Arisato-kun]

Inputs really aren't that difficult man. It's just one of those things that looks incredibly intimidating. Blazblue: Continuum Shift has a challenge mode that teaches you the inputs but it's more of a guideline. Repetition if you will so you know that your moves work like this in certain situations. Hell it even has a beginner mode if you just wanna button mash.

Knowing all the inputs doesn't automatically make you good. You can get by just fine mixing things up and knowing which attacks work best in each situation. A goddamn 100 hit combo is unnecessary and just flashy.

Fighting games are still easy to enjoy. You've just got to be willing to learn a bit, as with any game. The vast majority of my friends that play Blazblue had never touched a fighting game in their life prior to picking it up. Now that the intimidation is gone combos come naturally.

 

[IAmTheVoid]

Well, I don't know about BlazBlue personally, as I hadn't picked it up. It was mainly the pre-warnings which made me think to post in the first place. It's nice that it does more than a rubbish-ass tutorial though (I'm looking at you, Soul Calibur 2).

Most of my problem came with Street Fighter 4. Let's take E-Honda's for example.

http://streetfighter4.asia/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ehonda_moves.jpg

Good lord.

I'm willing to learn, as with any game. I don't just put down a game if I don't understand it in five minutes. But they just seem to make it unnecessarily complicated for no real reason.

 

[Audio]

What always bothered me with fighting games is when they use two different charactors, but each share the same moves; Only slightly changed. Also from what i have seen in streetfighter tourneys, it's all little hits to the knee or a sneeky jump kick that win it. It's so frustrating to learn all these combo moves only to be beaten by button bashing.

I'd guess that many players dont want to learn a whole book load of moves THEN learn the combos. Bollox at trying to do this for each charactor: pick on that you think looks cool and stick with him/her. Doing that makes fighting games dull and repetative. Even learning more charactors, you kinda know what the opponent is capable of a things drag.

I love watching the anime style Japanese fighting games but i have no desire to try it. Too fast and a bit mental for the brain.

 

[Arisato-kun]

Well, I don't know about BlazBlue personally, as I hadn't picked it up. It was mainly the pre-warnings which made me think to post in the first place. It's nice that it does more than a rubbish-ass tutorial though (I'm looking at you, Soul Calibur 2).

Most of my problem came with Street Fighter 4. Let's take E-Honda's for example.

http://streetfighter4.asia/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ehonda_moves.jpg

Good lord.

I'm willing to learn, as with any game. I don't just put down a game if I don't understand it in five minutes. But they just seem to make it unnecessarily complicated for no real reason.

Charge attacks are brutal for beginners. Blazblue has no characters with charges for normal moves. It's honestly a great fighter for newbies to the genre to pick up. The second one that is, the first has no such tutorial mode. D:

I love watching the anime style Japanese fighting games but i have no desire to try it. Too fast and a bit mental for the brain.

They just seem fast at first. You get used to em. Honestly, after playing Guilty Gear and Blazblue I find Street Fighter to be excruciatingly slow.

 

[-Seraph-]

See if your complaints were aimed primarily at Tekken I could somewhat sypathise, not a big Tekken fan myself. But "long inputs" are nowhere near as hard as people think they are, most of it becomes mere muscle memory after a while. I don't wanna sound like a douche but, if your not willing to learn, then don't bother playing. Simplified controls just simplifies game play and leaves the game hollow and not much room for depth. But seriously, performing a half circle or quarter circle takes no effort at all.

Just sit down and learn, be patient, fighters are about practice. Once you become good enough it simply becomes a manner of 'don't think, just fight' and you let your hands do the work. Button mashing is terribly unfulfilling and gets boring after a while, the true battle doesn't lie in the button combos, but the intense mental battle between the two players.

Oh and that pic you posted on Hondas move set? that's not complicated AT ALL. That command table is childs play compared to some other characters/fighters.

 

[IAmTheVoid]

See if your complaints were aimed primarily at Tekken I could somewhat sypathise, not a big Tekken fan myself. But "long inputs" are nowhere near as hard as people think they are, most of it becomes mere muscle memory after a while. I don't wanna sound like a douche but, if your not willing to learn, then don't bother playing. Simplified controls just simplifies game play and leaves the game hollow and not much room for depth. But seriously, performing a half circle or quarter circle takes no effort at all.

Hey, I never said I wasn't willing to learn. I've played plenty of fighters in my time (I wouldn't call myself amazing at them, but I've played a lot). I'm totally cool with half circles and quarter circles. It's when it becomes a combination of quarter-circles, charges, cancels and the like that it just gets over my head. It's not being unwilling to learn, because I endeavoured to understand games like Europa Universalis and eventually got there. But with EU, to carry on the example, you can learn through adopting strategy, whilst in SF4 or Tekken you're going to be trying an input, going back to the move-list, writing it down, trying again, etc.

Just sit down and learn, be patient, fighters are about practice. Once you become good enough it simply becomes a manner of 'don't think, just fight' and you let your hands do the work. Button mashing is terribly unfulfilling and gets boring after a while, the true battle doesn't lie in the button combos, but the intense mental battle between the two players.

This is why I posted this thread exactly. Button mashing is completely antithesis to how I want to play, and I never do it. It's the level of practice that a game should take to become good at that is the dividing line I was poking at. Where's the line between learning how to play a game and a chore?

Oh and that pic you posted on Hondas move set? that's not complicated AT ALL. That command table is childs play compared to some other characters/fighters.

And how it is still fairly complicated illustrates my point completely. It'd probably be better if the time window for charge moves was more obvious, but instead it's up to the player to work out through trial and error. In this way I concede that the learning curve could still be easier if move-lists were more clear and obvious with their icons (like 'charge', one I particularly hate, and especially when the game doesn't use controller-sensitive inputs, instead making kicks 'A' or whatever), but still hold on to my original point: we don't need this complication.

 

[-Seraph-]

Complication is a GOOD thing though, again I stress my one line: "Simplified controls just simplifies game play and leaves the game hollow and not much room for depth".

Stringing together attack actions is not complicated and it just sounds like you haven't practiced enough. It's as easy or as difficult as any other game genre when you get down to it. These things only become a chore if you make it so; you don't have to spend 3 hours in practice mode to learn the ropes of a character or game, just go into a fight with the CPU or another person and just play. These things come naturally and you eventually just stop thinking about the combo and you just 'do it'; hence "don't think, just fight'. You have to be willing to be beaten to a pulp over and over in order to learn anything.

You'll find that these games are not entirely bound by who can string up the highest combos, there is an equal balance of tactics that have to be used as well. And games tend to make it evidently clear with their move lists and visual cues for certain actions so I have no idea where you are going wrong with that.

It really sounds like you just need more focus, and to know when to just let yourself go and let the fingers do the work. I for one like the rather steep learning curve and barrier fighting games have because it's forcing you to pay attention and LEARN. It's telling you to "either man the fuck up and pay attention, or get out". Accessibility is good and all, but sometimes it just compromises the games integrity; simplification is the last thing fighters need because then you just have this shallow and unfulfilling game.

Sorry if I sound kind of a snob/elitist, I don't mean to. I just hate it when people complain about this crap in fighting games because it really sounds like less of the games problem and more a problem with the player. I'm no pro and have not played as long as some other people, but I manned up, played the game, and became good by just playing and going with the flow.

 

[The Night Shade]

Mortal Kombat doesn't use a lot of this things you should try those games

 

[Deleted]

What's happened to fighting games? All the big titles now- Tekken, Street Fighter, BlazBlue- seem to have all evolved into this one fighting game entity: a panoply of characters (good) with varying personalities and backstories (good) fighting on lavishly decorated and sometimes interactive stages (great) and fighting using about one thousand moves, each with their own array of horrible combinations.

That's a great combo of plus points marred by one big, bad point, at least for me.

I have no problem with games pandering towards the kind of gamers who want to learn a games ins and outs and play it on a 'higher' level. But this blocks me out. Other fighting games- like the Smash Bros. series, to take an example- have proven that you don't need a massive collection of inputs to make a game which requires a quick mind and quicker fingers and be enjoyable to all kinds of players- the button masher, the casual, the pro, and any other generalisation of a gamer you want to come up with.

This all arose when I looked at the trailers for BlazBlue and thought that it looked great. Talked with a few forum members on another forum about it.

Me: "Does it have long inputs? The characters look great and all, but I don't want to sit in training mode for two hours trying to get to grips with one character."

Them: "Er, sorry. It's got long inputs. It's easier than most to get into but it's still pretty tough."

Commence raging on my part.

Is this just me? Fighting games for me are becoming a medium which is less and less easy to enjoy, unless you're playing with somebody who's just as confused as you (and even then you're scratching the surface of the game and feel like complete incompetents). These long inputs just seem to be unnecessary and detrimental to the experience of beating the ever-loving crap out of somebody. Your thoughts, gentlemen.

The very nature of a fighting game is that its not fun if you're bad at it. Its purely competitive so its like a sport. You wouldn't complain about learning to play a new sport if you wanted to play it, since its necessary. So why do games have to be shallow and simple too?

The truth is, though, that fighting games aren't that complex. And they're just intimidating to an outsider. It took me maybe ten minutes to learn the basics of a street fighter game, and the basics carry over to every other fighting game too. Then the individual systems of the games take longer, plus all the different character moves/weaknesses/strategies to memorize.

You want a complicated game that takes ages to learn? Try starcraft!!

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

What always bothered me with fighting games is when they use two different charactors, but each share the same moves; Only slightly changed. Also from what i have seen in streetfighter tourneys, it's all little hits to the knee or a sneeky jump kick that win it. It's so frustrating to learn all these combo moves only to be beaten by button bashing.

Street Fighter is probably the least button-mashing-friendly fighting series out there. Leaving yourself open by mashing buttons is probably the worst thing you could possibly do. There's a myriad of ways that a quarter-second opening can get you uppercut, launched into a combo, then finished with an Ultra.

I personally have no problem with button combos. I have a problem with button combos that require absolutely precise timing, which is what a lot of the Street Fighter combos require. Example, Ryu's low medium -> low medium-> low fierce -> shoryuken combo has literally 4 split-second windows that you have to nail perfectly to execute the combo, or you just punch once and then leave yourself in a gigantic opening to get trounced. That's frustrating.

 

[godofallu]

Your opinion is shared by me. Almost all fighting games are a bunch of lame characters with insane move combos that I will never learn.

Skill isn't as important as knowing all the combos.

I did like UFC 2009 though, and Smash Brothers.

 

[The Procrastinated End]

Was BlazBlue's inputs really that long?
I mean yeah it has some combos but they're mostly a couple of buttons at most.

 

[ntw3001]

Complication is a GOOD thing though, again I stress my one line: "Simplified controls just simplifies game play and leaves the game hollow and not much room for depth".

I don't really follow you. I don't see how pressing more buttons to pull off a move makes the gameplay deeper unless the pushing of buttons is the entire goal of the game (rather than a means to an end, say, controlling a character on a screen). I don't see the benefit to making the basic elements of a game more difficult than they need to be. While it may be the case that the moves aren't hard to learn, they could be a lot easier, so why aren't they? surely the controls of a game ought to be as simple and intuitive as possible in order to draw the player into the game itself?

If the game is about the controls (eg. Complex Sequential Button Presser 3: Requiem) I might understand it, but I rather see these games as being about executing sequences of moves in response to an opponent, the controls being nothing but a needlessly complex and inaccessible means to that end. Maybe that view is just completely out of sync with the competitive community.

It's something that seems to be deeply considered in pro circles so I imagine there must be something to it, but I don't see it. I don't understand how this kind of interface improves the quality of competition between two players. And if the complexity of executing moves doesn't affect the game, why is it present at all? Is it purely to make the game less accessible? Like I say, there must be some reason, but I can't fathom it. People are welcome to enlighten me.

 

[Deviltongue]

See if your complaints were aimed primarily at Tekken I could somewhat sypathise, not a big Tekken fan myself. But "long inputs" are nowhere near as hard as people think they are, most of it becomes mere muscle memory after a while.

Exactly what I was thinking. I own both Blazblue games and I don't play it religiously or anything (Although my friends do) and I can still pull out some decent combos with Hakumen, Tsubaki and Ragna. It just requires a bit of learning what the character can do then eventually the combos will become second nature.

 

[SimuLord]

"The Dividing Line between a live hero and a dead one is a sharp sword. Get the best you can afford from Tun-Zeeus...Because you don't want to be on the dead guy side of the line, do you?"

 

[PayneTrayne]

For long inputs one that always killed me was Ivy in Soul Calibur 2, I mean you never had to use it, but I just wanted to master the character. I believe it was called Crow's Nest (it was the cinematic move where her sword would break apart and absolutely destroy the opponent while she held them), I believe it was 12 directions plus 2 attack buttons.

 

[Cogwheel]

Not a fan of that style of game either, and yes, it is prevalent. Now, I understand that not liking them is personal taste, and these games must be quite good. I still like simpler stuff.

A list of personal favourites/suggestions: Most gundam games (the Gundam seed-destiny 2+ whathaveyou thingie is good. I don't know a thing about Gundam, but many games based on it are good fighting/TPS thingies).

Powerstone, though I only have the first one. Dreamcast, sadly.

Brawl, obviously.

Hisoutensoku. A Touhou game, but aside from that (I say aside because it's about as weird as a series gets), it's excellently designed and even if you only play one character, there's enough customization/strategies for them that it never, ever gets old. Decent soundtrack, too. Decent rather than amazing, unlike most of the series, but still. Besides, you get to summon a train to run people over. What more do you want?