Final Fantasy VII Remake Will Include "Dramatic" Changes

[MDSnowman]

I think the real thing being unsaid here is that Yes FFVII needs some reworking, but SE has shown they are the last people the public wants making those adjustments.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Probably because they are things in the FF series/KH and if you are judging a game you judge it by other games made by the developer. If you haven't played all the games in the series then that is kind of on you to learn and research so you have an upto date view point on the genre / developer.

Yeah, no. The FF13 trilogy is the worst thing to happen to Final Fantasy ever. There is no fucking way in hell I'm going to subject my self to more of that horse shit for the sake of an argument on the internet with some one I'm not likely to ever talk to again.

Besides, what makes you think I haven't played the other FF games? Not only have I played and beaten most of them, FF 7 isn't even in my top 5, barely in my top 10 (14,6,4,9,5,10,3,1,Mystic Quest,7 case your wondering) So I know about Final Fantasy.

Yes, I ranked the MMO higher then the rest, it's story is awesome. Deal With It.

As for Kingdom Hearts, I stopped caring about that slow motion train wreck after the first one. It's a novel, if stupid concept that, like Justin Bebier, is popular from reasons I will never understand.

In any event, I'm more in the Atlus/Shin Megami Tensei camp these days. Would like a real SMT game though, and not another Persona, but meh, w/e, gonna be good regardless.

I play for fun. I find it more fun when I am challenged and have options in combat. As a kid (5 years old) I realized that the powersoul weapon was OP and better than everything else in the game. How could I not it was a weapon that did 16 times the normal damage you could do (And then with Hero drinks it went up to 72 times) so you could do 9999 damage with a level 7 Tifa if you really wanted to. From that point on I had 1 combat ability and I never wanted to explore any other options because why would I? Nothing was as powerful as Powersoul (Although powersoul eventually got replaced when fighting weapons just due to its large set up time). If the OP options are so obvious then the rest of the options stop existing thus removing the strategy element from the JRPG.

So ... your basing your opinion on Speed Runners and your own inability to not use the most OP thing out there. Good to know. Also, that's your own god damn fualt for ruining the game for your self. 7 isn't so hard that you need to run the most OP set up you can all the time. Nice try though, I almost though you had a valid base for your argument, now I see you really don't.

But what would be the point in just a prettier game? The combat would be the same so there would be no point in playing it because the PS1 version would probably be superior just due to how remakes work typically. People want a prettier version but they'd complain just as much when they realize its the exact same game and its only "benefit" is removed when you realize YouTube exists.

We live in an age where gamers whine loud and constantly about graphics, among other stupid shit, and only sorta maybe care about mechanics. I'm pretty sure less people will care then you think. It'll be new, and shiny and pretty, better looking then anything else out there for awhile. As long as it works fine with minimal/no bugs they could get away with using the old combat system and still fill the money bin back up.

Also I have no idea why you think just because something has to be aimed at a younger audience it instantly means emo. They're aiming from anywhere 3+ and most teenagers would probably know what FF is at this point so they either don't care or would pick it up based on its history regardless. If anything Cloud would probably lighten up a tad more which is likely to happen regardless just to fix a bunch of translation quirks

Because the 'younger audience' likely hasn't played, and probably won't play the original FF7 due to how dated it looks, so they'd be going off tripe like KH or Advent Children, for Clouds character nether of which really do a good job on that front.

 

[TheBaitandSwitch]

It's not that I have any special feelings for the ATB system itself. Imo: "...I honestly think the gameplay in those now outdated games was leagues stronger than anything Square Enix has produced in the franchise's more modern iterations" is exactly how I would put it.

The materia system functionality is the part I don't want changed. At all. Stay away from it Squeenix! The ATB, or some variation of it, remains the best system to combine the materia system with. The Crisis Core method was absolutely terrible, btw, so don't even think about it. I just don't see how a different system would go well with the materia system.

That may very well be the most important flaw in recent FF gameplay. Ability systems that just don't work with an ARPG combat mode. ARPGs need more than just 'Attack' as a command. They need different attacks, blocks, dodges, parries, item wheels, ability wheels...oh and look, it's not FF anymore. See my point? We don't need an ARPG that doesn't work, we need a turn based RPG that Squaresoft (and I should hope by extension Square-Enix) is already so good at.

Polish it up, make it sound great, maybe add some extra content to tie in Crisis Core and Advent Children storylines, maybe add some more combat elements without altering the foundation. Drastic changes are not warranted.

 

[Lightknight]

Called it, the below quote of myself is from the June 17th FFVII thread after the announcement in which Benpasko argues with me that if they changed the fighting mechanics that fans would burn their building down and I maintained that Square Enix is ABSOLUTELY going to change the fighting mechanics. They simply can't help themselves.

Because the fans would rise up and burn their building to the ground? I'm a big Final Fantasy fan, but if they 'remade' FF7 with totally different combat mechanics, that's not a remake at all. That's a straight-up lie.

And yet their core series has diverted away from ATB and no buildings have been razed as their ship lists towards the reef.

Those are new games, not remakes. It's fine for a new game to have new gameplay, but if you change the core gameplay in a remake, that's not the same game to me. That's like saying Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles is a remake of RE2.

And you say they've died away, but me and all my friends who are fans would rather have ATB than any combat system that's come after it. I just want updated graphics, and slightly remastered music like Streets of Rage Remake. They'd better not touch the pre-existing content.

"Pre-existing content"? You just listed multiple items qualifying as "pre-existing content" that you want to see them alter. Are you really just saying that they'd better only remake the pre-existing content that you want them to?

I don't think music and graphics are 'content', they're just the packaging. I just want new packaging for the same great meat. And if they want to put in new stuff, they can throw in some nice sauce, but don't touch my meat.

I bet you monies that Square Enix isn't thinking of it this way. Their goal is to sell games and they've clearly gone away from believing that ATB sells titles. Please, save this post for when we get more details on the remake.

So... dearest Benpasko, you may not have taken me up on the bet but now we know that I was right and we can now mourn together.

Square Enix simply isn't in a healthy enough place to do the remake justice.

That being said, the traditional ATB style really isn't that popular anymore. I do think there are better mechanics out there that they could use so I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. I just have no idea what they are planning this time.

 

[Zefar]

So long as they don't rename Claude to something stupid like "Cloud", it should be fine.

His name IS Cloud.


I wouldn't have any problems if the combat was moved away from turn based type to a far more active type. If we could still throw all the spells it would be a lot of fun.

But it's a bit weird how so many people say FF7 turn based combat system is so outdated when Dragon Age used turn based as well and people loved it. Even though it's turn based system is far more boring than FF7 is. Because at least in FF7 I can cast a lot of different spells that does all sorts of awesome things or summon godly beasts to slay my enemies. Can't do that in Dragon Age. Nope, I'll have to throw this little fireball that looks so pathetic it's a wonder it actually hurts enemies.

 

[runic knight]

This does not breed confidence. It takes confidence out back with a shotgun and a teary-eyed boy knowing he will have to put an old friend down.

That is not to say it can't be an improvement. The system was slow and clunky and an update could be done to make it improved. This could be done in a variety of ways, though I think if they have to change it drastically, I'd be partial to a sort of kingdom hearts system myself of action combat, if done right. Still, Square-Enix has not been the best at making me confident in their games in general in the last few years. I haven't bothered to play a numbered game since 12, and while I liked the ideas of 12, even that felt off and not very final fantasy like compared to the older titles. The debacle that was the Lightning Era has me worried to say the least.

 

[cryogeist]

This is going to be a disaster, I can feel it!
Honestly I just want to see what they do to Barrett.

 

[gonenow3]

Probably because they are things in the FF series/KH and if you are judging a game you judge it by other games made by the developer. If you haven't played all the games in the series then that is kind of on you to learn and research so you have an upto date view point on the genre / developer.

Yeah, no. The FF13 trilogy is the worst thing to happen to Final Fantasy ever. There is no fucking way in hell I'm going to subject my self to more of that horse shit for the sake of an argument on the internet with some one I'm not likely to ever talk to again.

Besides, what makes you think I haven't played the other FF games? Not only have I played and beaten most of them, FF 7 isn't even in my top 5, barely in my top 10 (14,6,4,9,5,10,3,1,Mystic Quest,7 case your wondering) So I know about Final Fantasy.

Yes, I ranked the MMO higher then the rest, it's story is awesome. Deal With It.

As for Kingdom Hearts, I stopped caring about that slow motion train wreck after the first one. It's a novel, if stupid concept that, like Justin Bebier, is popular from reasons I will never understand.

In any event, I'm more in the Atlus/Shin Megami Tensei camp these days. Would like a real SMT game though, and not another Persona, but meh, w/e, gonna be good regardless.

I play for fun. I find it more fun when I am challenged and have options in combat. As a kid (5 years old) I realized that the powersoul weapon was OP and better than everything else in the game. How could I not it was a weapon that did 16 times the normal damage you could do (And then with Hero drinks it went up to 72 times) so you could do 9999 damage with a level 7 Tifa if you really wanted to. From that point on I had 1 combat ability and I never wanted to explore any other options because why would I? Nothing was as powerful as Powersoul (Although powersoul eventually got replaced when fighting weapons just due to its large set up time). If the OP options are so obvious then the rest of the options stop existing thus removing the strategy element from the JRPG.

So ... your basing your opinion on Speed Runners and your own inability to not use the most OP thing out there. Good to know. Also, that's your own god damn fualt for ruining the game for your self. 7 isn't so hard that you need to run the most OP set up you can all the time. Nice try though, I almost though you had a valid base for your argument, now I see you really don't.

But what would be the point in just a prettier game? The combat would be the same so there would be no point in playing it because the PS1 version would probably be superior just due to how remakes work typically. People want a prettier version but they'd complain just as much when they realize its the exact same game and its only "benefit" is removed when you realize YouTube exists.

We live in an age where gamers whine loud and constantly about graphics, among other stupid shit, and only sorta maybe care about mechanics. I'm pretty sure less people will care then you think. It'll be new, and shiny and pretty, better looking then anything else out there for awhile. As long as it works fine with minimal/no bugs they could get away with using the old combat system and still fill the money bin back up.

Also I have no idea why you think just because something has to be aimed at a younger audience it instantly means emo. They're aiming from anywhere 3+ and most teenagers would probably know what FF is at this point so they either don't care or would pick it up based on its history regardless. If anything Cloud would probably lighten up a tad more which is likely to happen regardless just to fix a bunch of translation quirks

Because the 'younger audience' likely hasn't played, and probably won't play the original FF7 due to how dated it looks, so they'd be going off tripe like KH or Advent Children, for Clouds character nether of which really do a good job on that front.

exactly FF7 isn't in your top 10 so even you admit that FF7 is somewhat outdated and its combat system requires a lot of improvements. I'm not saying Ff7 is a bad game I'm just saying it needs to be better if it is going to sell well.

Kindgom hearts is good for one specific reason and its this one specific reason that people praise it. It has a fantastic combat system (DDD aside). Most people don't give a shit about the train wreck that is the KH story but will play it for its combat which is what a game is.

Thats the issue though - a combat system should never allow that to happen. There are fantastic examples in FF9 / 13 / KH series / multiple other games across multiple other genres. There is no reason to allow a combat system to be blatently broken and then have to limit yourself if you want to have fun - That is not a good combat system it really isn't.

To me you should only be basing a game in its combat / game play and nothing else matters. Everything else you can simply look up and thus kill any incentive to buy the game. A game without good graphics can easily be amazing if it has good gameplay (Dwarf fortress / shovel knight etc etc etc etc). However a game with bad gameplay will always be bad and cannot be saved. People are just silly and would rather waste money on a story/graphics they can see for free.

As for cloud's character in the newer installments he isn't honestly different from his FF7 counterpart. FF7 has more time to delve into his character but for the most part he really is that depressing to look at character. Personally I think Crisis Core had easily the best Cloud and if anything if they were going to swing one way or the other they'd probably swing more towards Crisis Core given they'd want to push that storyline more.

 

[Lunar Templar]

exactly FF7 isn't in your top 10 so even you admit that FF7 is somewhat outdated and its combat system requires a lot of improvements. I'm not saying Ff7 is a bad game I'm just saying it needs to be better if it is going to sell well.

Kindgom hearts is good for one specific reason and its this one specific reason that people praise it. It has a fantastic combat system (DDD aside). Most people don't give a shit about the train wreck that is the KH story but will play it for its combat which is what a game is.

I was hoping I was done here ... seems not the case ...

There is 1, HUGE problem with everything you just said, well, 2, but one is of greater import then the other.

I don't rank my top 10 based on the combat systems, that'd be unfair since FF1's system is hopelessly outdated, no, these are ranked in order of how much I enjoy them still, which is why a simple, and admitted guilty pleasure title like Mystic Quest is even on the list (a fantastic sound track helps)

The other is I always found KH to be a skilless button masher, so 'good combat' and 'KH' really don't belong in the same sentence.

Thats the issue though - a combat system should never allow that to happen. There are fantastic examples in FF9 / 13 / KH series / multiple other games across multiple other genres. There is no reason to allow a combat system to be blatently broken and then have to limit yourself if you want to have fun - That is not a good combat system it really isn't.

To me you should only be basing a game in its combat / game play and nothing else matters. Everything else you can simply look up and thus kill any incentive to buy the game. A game without good graphics can easily be amazing if it has good gameplay (Dwarf fortress / shovel knight etc etc etc etc). However a game with bad gameplay will always be bad and cannot be saved. People are just silly and would rather waste money on a story/graphics they can see for free.

The fact you even think that way, about a game in a genera DEFINED by story over game-play, and always has been story over game-play, is all of your problem here. You have the wrong mind set for this genera. Your the one that needs to adjust or move on, not Square, or anyone else.

Not that a combat system is ever something to judge a game on solely. Especially in an JRPG, a genera that is defined by story more then combat. You think Devil May Cry would be better with out Dante's Snark between levels? Despite what you think, the characters and story are just as, if not more important then the actual combat system. After all, a lot of games have 'great combat', but it's the worlds and characters that keep people playing.

Sure there's YouTube. Only time YouTube is an acceptable option for experiencing a games story is if you can't get the game due to not being able to justify buying the system it's on or you can't buy it for what ever reason. If your just watching the story cause you don't wanna buy it, your no better then some one who downloaded it for free off a site like pirate bay far as I'm concerned.

As for cloud's character in the newer installments he isn't honestly different from his FF7 counterpart. FF7 has more time to delve into his character but for the most part he really is that depressing to look at character. Personally I think Crisis Core had easily the best Cloud and if anything if they were going to swing one way or the other they'd probably swing more towards Crisis Core given they'd want to push that storyline more.

uh huh ... might wanna go back and pay a little closer attention. Cause there is a noticeable difference.

 

[gonenow3]

exactly FF7 isn't in your top 10 so even you admit that FF7 is somewhat outdated and its combat system requires a lot of improvements. I'm not saying Ff7 is a bad game I'm just saying it needs to be better if it is going to sell well.

Kindgom hearts is good for one specific reason and its this one specific reason that people praise it. It has a fantastic combat system (DDD aside). Most people don't give a shit about the train wreck that is the KH story but will play it for its combat which is what a game is.

I was hoping I was done here ... seems not the case ...

There is 1, HUGE problem with everything you just said, well, 2, but one is of greater import then the other.

I don't rank my top 10 based on the combat systems, that'd be unfair since FF1's system is hopelessly outdated, no, these are ranked in order of how much I enjoy them still, which is why a simple, and admitted guilty pleasure title like Mystic Quest is even on the list (a fantastic sound track helps)

The other is I always found KH to be a skilless button masher, so 'good combat' and 'KH' really don't belong in the same sentence.

Thats the issue though - a combat system should never allow that to happen. There are fantastic examples in FF9 / 13 / KH series / multiple other games across multiple other genres. There is no reason to allow a combat system to be blatently broken and then have to limit yourself if you want to have fun - That is not a good combat system it really isn't.

To me you should only be basing a game in its combat / game play and nothing else matters. Everything else you can simply look up and thus kill any incentive to buy the game. A game without good graphics can easily be amazing if it has good gameplay (Dwarf fortress / shovel knight etc etc etc etc). However a game with bad gameplay will always be bad and cannot be saved. People are just silly and would rather waste money on a story/graphics they can see for free.

The fact you even think that way, about a game in a genera DEFINED by story over game-play, and always has been story over game-play, is all of your problem here. You have the wrong mind set for this genera. Your the one that needs to adjust or move on, not Square, or anyone else.

Not that a combat system is ever something to judge a game on solely. Especially in an JRPG, a genera that is defined by story more then combat. You think Devil May Cry would be better with out Dante's Snark between levels? Despite what you think, the characters and story are just as, if not more important then the actual combat system. After all, a lot of games have 'great combat', but it's the worlds and characters that keep people playing.

Sure there's YouTube. Only time YouTube is an acceptable option for experiencing a games story is if you can't get the game due to not being able to justify buying the system it's on or you can't buy it for what ever reason. If your just watching the story cause you don't wanna buy it, your no better then some one who downloaded it for free off a site like pirate bay far as I'm concerned.

As for cloud's character in the newer installments he isn't honestly different from his FF7 counterpart. FF7 has more time to delve into his character but for the most part he really is that depressing to look at character. Personally I think Crisis Core had easily the best Cloud and if anything if they were going to swing one way or the other they'd probably swing more towards Crisis Core given they'd want to push that storyline more.

uh huh ... might wanna go back and pay a little closer attention. Cause there is a noticeable difference.

If you are finding KH to be a button masher then you really aren't paying attention to the gameplay aspect of your games and not looking at the depth a game has and experiencing it to its fullest potential. In the same way you bash me for not caring about a story you are ignoring the primary function of all games across all genres - Its gameplay.

Just because its a genre defined by story does not mean I can't judge them on the gameplay. I prefer the story of FFX to X-2 but the gameplay of X-2 is far superior to that of X thus X-2 is better to me because it has more replay value due to its better combat system and thats what matters most in a game how many hours I can enjoy it for.

To counter your argument lets take Mario - Its a game based on good gameplay and nothing else and its still very enjoyable because they work on first and foremost the gameplay. Everything nintendo does is about furthering the gameplay experience and refining their formulas as a result the gameplay from the original Zelda is laughable compared to Twilight princess (I'll admit that Skyward Sword was a tad weak due to motion controls).

As for the youtube debate I don't buy it and you're very unlikely to change my mind. If a game is praised purely on its story like Dear Esther then i'm just going to youtube it because there is no game there. Just a story.

Personally I didn't see much of a difference the Cloud in KH fits in more line with KH's story while the CC cloud fits in better with that story. Square have shown they can adapt cloud's character to the story they want to tell so i'm not going to be worried

 

[Lunar Templar]

If you are finding KH to be a button masher then you really aren't paying attention to the gameplay aspect of your games and not looking at the depth a game has and experiencing it to its fullest potential. In the same way you bash me for not caring about a story you are ignoring the primary function of all games across all genres - Its gameplay.

I never found the 'need' to dig into the mechanics cause it never gave me a reason to out side the end game super bosses, which you don't even need to acknowledge exist to beat the game. It's why I bash tripe like God of War for being a Button Masher as well, nether it or KH ever gave me reason to actually experiment or care there was more depth to the game play then I was initially given, which is the fualt of the development team.

Your gonna put a combat system with depth in the game, then make damn sure the player feels a need to at least poke it some of the more in depth mechanics. Pokemon is actually a great example of this, specifically the EVs. I'm not competitive or anything but I do care enough about that mechanic to actually take advantage of it. So, your wrong it's not that I don't look for depth, it's that if the devs don't give me a reason to actually seek it out, I'm not going to bother doing so.

Just because its a genre defined by story does not mean I can't judge them on the gameplay. I prefer the story of FFX to X-2 but the gameplay of X-2 is far superior to that of X thus X-2 is better to me because it has more replay value due to its better combat system and thats what matters most in a game how many hours I can enjoy it for.

The combat system should never be judged in priory over story if the games main draw IS STORY.That's like giving an expensive, exotic Super Car a low over all score cause you don't like the color when it's performance is perfect.

To counter your argument lets take Mario - Its a game based on good gameplay and nothing else and its still very enjoyable because they work on first and foremost the gameplay. Everything nintendo does is about furthering the gameplay experience and refining their formulas as a result the gameplay from the original Zelda is laughable compared to Twilight princess (I'll admit that Skyward Sword was a tad weak due to motion controls).

And even both those games have seen significant world and character building since the first games. So theres more then JUST hitting things with a bit of sharp metal and jumping on things. Not much mind you, but then that lack of 'every thing else' is kinda why I don't really care about Mario anymore.

now, Metroid on the other hand ...

As for the youtube debate I don't buy it and you're very unlikely to change my mind. If a game is praised purely on its story like Dear Esther then i'm just going to youtube it because there is no game there. Just a story.

I wouldn't YouTube trash like Dear Esther even if I was fucking PAID to. Crap like that doesn't deserve to be called a game let a lone an 'art game', I've played good Art Games, shit like Dear Esther is basically some talentless hacks attempt to make a game and hide behind it 'it art!' to cover from they're inability to to add basic game play functions other then walking.

Not that I have an opinion on 'Walking Simulators' or anything.

 

[gonenow3]

If you are finding KH to be a button masher then you really aren't paying attention to the gameplay aspect of your games and not looking at the depth a game has and experiencing it to its fullest potential. In the same way you bash me for not caring about a story you are ignoring the primary function of all games across all genres - Its gameplay.

I never found the 'need' to dig into the mechanics cause it never gave me a reason to out side the end game super bosses, which you don't even need to acknowledge exist to beat the game. It's why I bash tripe like God of War for being a Button Masher as well, nether it or KH ever gave me reason to actually experiment or care there was more depth to the game play then I was initially given, which is the fualt of the development team.

Your gonna put a combat system with depth in the game, then make damn sure the player feels a need to at least poke it some of the more in depth mechanics. Pokemon is actually a great example of this, specifically the EVs. I'm not competitive or anything but I do care enough about that mechanic to actually take advantage of it. So, your wrong it's not that I don't look for depth, it's that if the devs don't give me a reason to actually seek it out, I'm not going to bother doing so.

Just because its a genre defined by story does not mean I can't judge them on the gameplay. I prefer the story of FFX to X-2 but the gameplay of X-2 is far superior to that of X thus X-2 is better to me because it has more replay value due to its better combat system and thats what matters most in a game how many hours I can enjoy it for.

The combat system should never be judged in priory over story if the games main draw IS STORY.That's like giving an expensive, exotic Super Car a low over all score cause you don't like the color when it's performance is perfect.

To counter your argument lets take Mario - Its a game based on good gameplay and nothing else and its still very enjoyable because they work on first and foremost the gameplay. Everything nintendo does is about furthering the gameplay experience and refining their formulas as a result the gameplay from the original Zelda is laughable compared to Twilight princess (I'll admit that Skyward Sword was a tad weak due to motion controls).

And even both those games have seen significant world and character building since the first games. So theres more then JUST hitting things with a bit of sharp metal and jumping on things. Not much mind you, but then that lack of 'every thing else' is kinda why I don't really care about Mario anymore.

now, Metroid on the other hand ...

As for the youtube debate I don't buy it and you're very unlikely to change my mind. If a game is praised purely on its story like Dear Esther then i'm just going to youtube it because there is no game there. Just a story.

I wouldn't YouTube trash like Dear Esther even if I was fucking PAID to. Crap like that doesn't deserve to be called a game let a lone an 'art game', I've played good Art Games, shit like Dear Esther is basically some talentless hacks attempt to make a game and hide behind it 'it art!' to cover from they're inability to to add basic game play functions other then walking.

Not that I have an opinion on 'Walking Simulators' or anything.

There is a reason to delve deep (Especially if you played crit level 1) and even if you didn't the time taken to beat a game while not delving deep compared to doing it normally is extremely different you can make a 7 minute fight Xaldin or Saix into a 1 minute fight if you actually know what you are doing. Just because the game isn't going to outright reward you more for doing better doesn't mean you can't look deep.

Issue with EVs are they are just a natural grind on top of the already tedious grind for IVs and the grind for ability / gender. There isn't too much to them and they don't actually effect anything in an actual play through (I'll admit natures / IVs do matter and thank god for gen 3-5 having RNG manipulation) personally I see them as more of a block to actually play the game competitively (Although using pokemon is currently pretty funny given there is only 6 viable pokemon in the top tier (Which is already out right banning 1 pokemon) and everything else is rarely if ever used hence there is very little to the competitive scene given its literally "who gets the speed tie turn 1").

The issue with judging a game by its story and this is why I disagree with any story based reviews - Its all subjective. People like different things when it comes to a story and you simply can't objectively review or rate it. There are people who like the story to the 13 series for instance while some people hate Firefly. Gameplay is solid and easier to judge sure some people may have preferences like turn based vs a platformer but that is why we have categories for games these days so its even easier to rate and review gameplay.

 

[Lunar Templar]

There is a reason to delve deep (Especially if you played crit level 1) and even if you didn't the time taken to beat a game while not delving deep compared to doing it normally is extremely different you can make a 7 minute fight Xaldin or Saix into a 1 minute fight if you actually know what you are doing. Just because the game isn't going to outright reward you more for doing better doesn't mean you can't look deep.

The issue with judging a game by its story and this is why I disagree with any story based reviews - Its all subjective. People like different things when it comes to a story and you simply can't objectively review or rate it. There are people who like the story to the 13 series for instance while some people hate Firefly. Gameplay is solid and easier to judge sure some people may have preferences like turn based vs a platformer but that is why we have categories for games these days so its even easier to rate and review gameplay.

You get the feeling where just wasting each others time? Cause I'm getting the feeling we're wasting each others time.

Cause I don't agree with any of that. A game needs to be judged first and foremost by it's main draw. The thing people are buying the game for need to carry the most weight in any review. Doesn't matter if that game is this FF7 remake, or the next CoD.

The mechanics of the game NEED to be needed in normal play, not to the extreme of of 'learn or die' like the 360's Ninja Gaiden games, but they should make you need to know how to use your kit. If they aren't giving you any reason to even learn how to use your full kit out side the optional bosses then there's no reason that part of your kit even needs to exist before then.

And really, nothing you can say is gonna change any of that.

 

[infohippie]

Do the "dramatic changes" include a PC port this time? Or are SquareEnix uninterested in making money?

 

[gonenow3]

There is a reason to delve deep (Especially if you played crit level 1) and even if you didn't the time taken to beat a game while not delving deep compared to doing it normally is extremely different you can make a 7 minute fight Xaldin or Saix into a 1 minute fight if you actually know what you are doing. Just because the game isn't going to outright reward you more for doing better doesn't mean you can't look deep.

The issue with judging a game by its story and this is why I disagree with any story based reviews - Its all subjective. People like different things when it comes to a story and you simply can't objectively review or rate it. There are people who like the story to the 13 series for instance while some people hate Firefly. Gameplay is solid and easier to judge sure some people may have preferences like turn based vs a platformer but that is why we have categories for games these days so its even easier to rate and review gameplay.

You get the feeling where just wasting each others time? Cause I'm getting the feeling we're wasting each others time.

Cause I don't agree with any of that. A game needs to be judged first and foremost by it's main draw. The thing people are buying the game for need to carry the most weight in any review. Doesn't matter if that game is this FF7 remake, or the next CoD.

The mechanics of the game NEED to be needed in normal play, not to the extreme of of 'learn or die' like the 360's Ninja Gaiden games, but they should make you need to know how to use your kit. If they aren't giving you any reason to even learn how to use your full kit out side the optional bosses then there's no reason that part of your kit even needs to exist before then.

And really, nothing you can say is gonna change any of that.

Slightly but one final point

To be honest I disagree with that as well since I disagree that games should be judged on their multiplayer as well given servers can go down and the multiplayer might not exist when you pick up the game or it might have changed significantly with patches to the point the original review is moot. As for story i've already said that its too subjective to ever review properly thus its a bad thing to base a game experience on especially when the main point of buying a game over any other form of media is its gameplay value. If I wanted a story why buy a bad game with a good story when I could just buy a movie?

The issue is that there is a benefit for the most part that I had actually forgot about and why its so important to learn game mechanics in a JRPG. It has a knock on effect. By being better at the game you don't have to grind anything anymore. In pokemon for instance you never need to beat an optional trainer or random pokemon to beat the game if you know what you are doing. In FFX you don't need to grind exp just to beat Seymore / Sinspawn GUI instead the game allows you to beat bosses by abusing the small things in the combat system. I mean at the end of the day you can beat FFX without using any of the following mechanics:

sphere grid
summons
overdrives
Customise
Escape
Blitzball

Would you say that because you don't ever need to use any of those mechanics that there is no reason to use them? You do however use them and that is because the game rewards you for using them with easier battles and a better combat experience. Sure you can beat KH by just mashing keyblade combos (Although good luck beating critical mode without understanding revenge values) however you can also use limits like duck flair / drive forms / summons in KH and beat bosses much quicker and have a more enjoyable time of it. Just because a game doesn't outright give you a reason to delve into the inner mechanics doesn't mean its not going to reward you in one form or another. The rewards for understanding game mechanics after all are generally just quality of life improvements.

 

[Lunar Templar]

The issue is that there is a benefit for the most part that I had actually forgot about and why its so important to learn game mechanics in a JRPG. It has a knock on effect. By being better at the game you don't have to grind anything anymore. In pokemon for instance you never need to beat an optional trainer or random pokemon to beat the game if you know what you are doing. In FFX you don't need to grind exp just to beat Seymore / Sinspawn GUI instead the game allows you to beat bosses by abusing the small things in the combat system. I mean at the end of the day you can beat FFX without using any of the following mechanics:

sphere grid
summons
overdrives
Customise
Escape
Blitzball

Would you say that because you don't ever need to use any of those mechanics that there is no reason to use them? You do however use them and that is because the game rewards you for using them with easier battles and a better combat experience. Sure you can beat KH by just mashing keyblade combos (Although good luck beating critical mode without understanding revenge values) however you can also use limits like duck flair / drive forms / summons in KH and beat bosses much quicker and have a more enjoyable time of it. Just because a game doesn't outright give you a reason to delve into the inner mechanics doesn't mean its not going to reward you in one form or another. The rewards for understanding game mechanics after all are generally just quality of life improvements.

Cept for the part about needing a high level of understanding of FFX to get away with not using the Sphere Grid, cause that's no something you just 'do' with out the kind of understanding of the game that comes from multiple play throughs. As for Summons, Overdirves, Escape, Customize. Yeah, You can get away with not using those, ever, and not even need to know much about the game ether, FFX isn't exactly hard ya know, and Blitzball is pretty much pointless if your not after Wakka's Ult weapon.

Assuming you didn't do what I did and make something 10 times better. (You can't give me the ability to make my own 'weapons' and expect me to ignore it) and not use Wakka cause he sucks.

And if the game doesn't explain or give you a reason to use the mechanics of the combat system to the fullest on the default difficulty, turning up the difficulty isn't going to fucking help matters, in fact it's only going to make them worse, especially if they did a shit job explaining how to use the the parts of your kit your really gonna need to know to not get turned inside out.

 

[gonenow3]

The issue is that there is a benefit for the most part that I had actually forgot about and why its so important to learn game mechanics in a JRPG. It has a knock on effect. By being better at the game you don't have to grind anything anymore. In pokemon for instance you never need to beat an optional trainer or random pokemon to beat the game if you know what you are doing. In FFX you don't need to grind exp just to beat Seymore / Sinspawn GUI instead the game allows you to beat bosses by abusing the small things in the combat system. I mean at the end of the day you can beat FFX without using any of the following mechanics:

sphere grid
summons
overdrives
Customise
Escape
Blitzball

Would you say that because you don't ever need to use any of those mechanics that there is no reason to use them? You do however use them and that is because the game rewards you for using them with easier battles and a better combat experience. Sure you can beat KH by just mashing keyblade combos (Although good luck beating critical mode without understanding revenge values) however you can also use limits like duck flair / drive forms / summons in KH and beat bosses much quicker and have a more enjoyable time of it. Just because a game doesn't outright give you a reason to delve into the inner mechanics doesn't mean its not going to reward you in one form or another. The rewards for understanding game mechanics after all are generally just quality of life improvements.

Cept for the part about needing a high level of understanding of FFX to get away with not using the Sphere Grid, cause that's no something you just 'do' with out the kind of understanding of the game that comes from multiple play throughs. As for Summons, Overdirves, Escape, Customize. Yeah, You can get away with not using those, ever, and not even need to know much about the game ether, FFX isn't exactly hard ya know, and Blitzball is pretty much pointless if your not after Wakka's Ult weapon.

Assuming you didn't do what I did and make something 10 times better. (You can't give me the ability to make my own 'weapons' and expect me to ignore it) and not use Wakka cause he sucks.

And if the game doesn't explain or give you a reason to use the mechanics of the combat system to the fullest on the default difficulty, turning up the difficulty isn't going to fucking help matters, in fact it's only going to make them worse, especially if they did a shit job explaining how to use the the parts of your kit your really gonna need to know to not get turned inside out.

Blitzball actually has some niche uses for obtaining some rarer items and gets you a bit stronger much earlier than should be possible. Also Wakka is the best character in the game due to attack reels? Not even debatable really.

Personally i'm a fan of the old majora mask / old NES games that just threw you in and didn't explain things. I don't need 3 hours of tutorials to understand a game and nor do I need babysitting. It should be to the player to explore the game and find its depth and the game should allow for multiple options / choices in gameplay which is where we come full circle to the issue I had with FF7. It lacked choice in its gameplay and at this point we're just going to loop our arguments I feel.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Blitzball actually has some niche uses for obtaining some rarer items and gets you a bit stronger much earlier than should be possible. Also Wakka is the best character in the game due to attack reels? Not even debatable really.

Think we covered the 'OP ability =/= good character' already ... he's like an annoying more shit version of Cait Sith really ... and your stuck with him the whole fucking game -.-

Personally i'm a fan of the old majora mask / old NES games that just threw you in and didn't explain things. I don't need 3 hours of tutorials to understand a game and nor do I need babysitting. It should be to the player to explore the game and find its depth and the game should allow for multiple options / choices in gameplay which is where we come full circle to the issue I had with FF7. It lacked choice in its gameplay and at this point we're just going to loop our arguments I feel.

SNES here, but the point still stands. It helps that back then you could do a lot more exploring on average then you can now, course, thing where simpler back then to and you didn't need to know how to do Points at Metal Gear Rising all that to get past the first real boss.

 

[snave]

Third, a REMAKE is not the same thing as a REMASTER.

Err... in the context of games, yes they are. Once you take those terms away from the genre and technology they refer to (film), they lose all context and become marketing speak. Not that semantics even matters as the industry-at-large simply uses them interchangeably. The first time I can even recall seeing the 'remaster' tag used on a game was only a couple of years back with Ducktales Remastered, which by your definition was a remake anyway.

Anyhow, I'm simply flicking through this thread to gauge whether its worth my time getting the original working in an enjoyable state or wait for the rejiggered version. Three pages in and I feel like just playing some other classic game I missed instead.