Financial bailout .

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werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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There are lots of problems to this bailout, including continued payments to ACORN and other left-wing causes. The biggest is that the bailout is designed to continue business as usual. HUD requires Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (both GSEs or Government Sponsored Enterprises) to put 50% of their portfolios in low to moderate income mortgages. Most low and moderate income people by the government's standards can't really afford to own a home. HUD's continued increases in percentage of such loans created a new market, called sub-prime loans, for people who don't qualify under standard guidelines. HUD also requires, and Justice strenuously enforces, lenders to stop using "old , outdated metrics" such as income verification, job stability, credit history, and independent, out-of-house appraisals. Finally, most lenders hold very few of the mortgages they write; the bulk of them are packaged and sold to other lenders, sometimes multiple times.

Since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying sub-prime mortgages as fast as possible to meet their Congressional mandates, lenders were free to write mortgages with little chance of being paid back - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac accepted the risk (backed by the tax payers of course), the banks and mortgage companies reaped the profits. This led to such unsound practices as zero percent down or even up to 125% mortgages, bait-and-switch variable rate mortgages (where the buyer is conned into buying a mortgage that will go up even if the economy and the prime rate stay even because it is artificially low at inception), fifty year mortgages, mortgages where the payments are lower than interest servicing with a balloon payment due in five or ten years (under the dual assumptions that the homeowner will be earning significantly more income then and that the house will have appreciated in value enough to be refinanced for the original cost of the house plus the accrued interest and the cost of refinancing), and mortgage lenders using in-house appraisers (if you know a GSE is going to purchase the loan and assume the risk, you don't really care if you are lending $100,000 for a $50,000 house because the GSE is going to give you back your $100,000 plus part of the interest on the $100,000 loan.)

The bailout plan is, bluntly speaking, horrible. The Democrat (and Senate Republican) plan is only marginally better than the Bush plan, which had the same goals and general conditions (albeit no payouts to ACORN and other left-wing groups) plus a complete lack of Congressional or judicial oversight. (Imagine the incredible idiocy of giving one unelected official complete control over $700,000,000,000!) If the federal government buys these sub-prime mortgages, then lenders and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will continue doing the same stupid things that got us into this mess.

The House Republicans have a better plan for a bailout, from what I've seen. Instead of buying the sub-prime, at-risk mortgages to make Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac solvent again, loan them the money to weather this crisis. (The tax payer is already on the hook for these mortgages in either case, even if Congress does nothing.) Put in real changes to the way the mortgage industry operates - require a minimum 10% (not including closing costs) down payment on all mortgages except VA, end in-house appraisals, and add in the Democrat bailout bill's limitations and controls on executive pay and bonuses and the increased oversight, and you might have a decent plan. And sub-prime mortgages must be banned. Common sense should tell you that if you can't qualify for a mortgage at the going rate, you certainly can't afford it at a higher rate no matter what financial gyrations a lender goes through. The problem CAN be fixed, but subsidizing rich people with poor people's money will just dig a deeper hole.
 

bad rider

The prodigal son of a goat boy
Dec 23, 2007
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Its funny reading through the current comments it seems that you are willing to let company's e.g banks fail. Whereas in the UK we have a different stance the banks can't fail as they are essentially peoples money. Unfortunately banks have had personalized schemes that allow people to get rich off selling mortgages people can't afford. (golden parachuters as i heard them called dismorning) I assume they have these schemes in America. But to move back on topic, how can the US economy survive when the places people put their money are gone? Surely if they don't step in the country will be left destitute?
 

AmericanWarMachine

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Sep 7, 2008
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I've read a few replys with people who are talking out of their asses. Please, if you don't know about the economy or how it works, please DO NOT POST. Thanks ;)
 

squiggothhunter

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Aug 4, 2008
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People are dumb. I think we all can agree on that. And greedy.
So when a bank says "hey guy, i bet you can afford this 250,000 dollar home" you'll go GREAT!
then you want more, maybe get a kid, things get tight, and everyone defaults on their loan. now noone has any money.
I see the problem clearly, but not the solution. 700 Billion more dollars? I dont know, throwing money at things only works so well.
 

KSarty

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Aug 5, 2008
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It's fake money, and it wouldn't help anybody. The government doesn't actually have that money just sitting around. So their plan was to give them $700 billion to maybe stabilize the economy and then increase taxes again to pay for it? I'll pass on that one thanks. We shouldn't be paying for these corporation's fuck ups. Plain and simple.
 

Portkins

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May 27, 2008
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AmericanWarMachine's ideas gave me an even better one.

Disolve the fortunes of the CEOs of America.
Hell, there's got to be a good 3 trillion in there.
 

bad rider

The prodigal son of a goat boy
Dec 23, 2007
2,252
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werepossum post=18.72780.772756 said:
There are lots of problems to this bailout, including continued payments to ACORN and other left-wing causes. The biggest is that the bailout is designed to continue business as usual. HUD requires Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (both GSEs or Government Sponsored Enterprises) to put 50% of their portfolios in low to moderate income mortgages. Most low and moderate income people by the government's standards can't really afford to own a home. HUD's continued increases in percentage of such loans created a new market, called sub-prime loans, for people who don't qualify under standard guidelines. HUD also requires, and Justice strenuously enforces, lenders to stop using "old , outdated metrics" such as income verification, job stability, credit history, and independent, out-of-house appraisals. Finally, most lenders hold very few of the mortgages they write; the bulk of them are packaged and sold to other lenders, sometimes multiple times.

Since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying sub-prime mortgages as fast as possible to meet their Congressional mandates, lenders were free to write mortgages with little chance of being paid back - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac accepted the risk (backed by the tax payers of course), the banks and mortgage companies reaped the profits. This led to such unsound practices as zero percent down or even up to 125% mortgages, bait-and-switch variable rate mortgages (where the buyer is conned into buying a mortgage that will go up even if the economy and the prime rate stay even because it is artificially low at inception), fifty year mortgages, mortgages where the payments are lower than interest servicing with a balloon payment due in five or ten years (under the dual assumptions that the homeowner will be earning significantly more income then and that the house will have appreciated in value enough to be refinanced for the original cost of the house plus the accrued interest and the cost of refinancing), and mortgage lenders using in-house appraisers (if you know a GSE is going to purchase the loan and assume the risk, you don't really care if you are lending $100,000 for a $50,000 house because the GSE is going to give you back your $100,000 plus part of the interest on the $100,000 loan.)

The bailout plan is, bluntly speaking, horrible. The Democrat (and Senate Republican) plan is only marginally better than the Bush plan, which had the same goals and general conditions (albeit no payouts to ACORN and other left-wing groups) plus a complete lack of Congressional or judicial oversight. (Imagine the incredible idiocy of giving one unelected official complete control over $700,000,000,000!) If the federal government buys these sub-prime mortgages, then lenders and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will continue doing the same stupid things that got us into this mess.

The House Republicans have a better plan for a bailout, from what I've seen. Instead of buying the sub-prime, at-risk mortgages to make Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac solvent again, loan them the money to weather this crisis. (The tax payer is already on the hook for these mortgages in either case, even if Congress does nothing.) Put in real changes to the way the mortgage industry operates - require a minimum 10% (not including closing costs) down payment on all mortgages except VA, end in-house appraisals, and add in the Democrat bailout bill's limitations and controls on executive pay and bonuses and the increased oversight, and you might have a decent plan. And sub-prime mortgages must be banned. Common sense should tell you that if you can't qualify for a mortgage at the going rate, you certainly can't afford it at a higher rate no matter what financial gyrations a lender goes through. The problem CAN be fixed, but subsidizing rich people with poor people's money will just dig a deeper hole.
Then how would you propose to fix the crisis?
Would you follow the republicans route or move in a different direction?

BTW good summing up of how it happened.
 

bad rider

The prodigal son of a goat boy
Dec 23, 2007
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AmericanWarMachine post=18.72780.772761 said:
I've read a few replys with people who are talking out of their asses. Please, if you don't know about the economy or how it works, please DO NOT POST. Thanks ;)
Don't flame bait its good to see anyone's opinion, as it shows different attitudes to the problem at hand.
 

Shivari

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Jun 17, 2008
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Portkins post=18.72780.772771 said:
AmericanWarMachine's ideas gave me an even better one.

Disolve the fortunes of the CEOs of America.
Hell, there's got to be a good 3 trillion in there.
That would destroy the economy though. What, just take all of their money away and just throw it at people? Leave every business in America bankrupt?

AmericanWarMachine post=18.72780.772761 said:
I've read a few replys with people who are talking out of their asses. Please, if you don't know about the economy or how it works, please DO NOT POST. Thanks ;)
You weren't really paying attention to him were you?
 
Dec 1, 2007
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Jak The Great post=18.72780.772622 said:
The problem was accountability. These guys took huge risks, and now they're paying for it.
Shouldn't the key concern right now be preventing the economic collapse rather then getting our kicks in on the guys on the top rung of the ladder?
 

Pipotchi

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Jan 17, 2008
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AmericanWarMachine post=18.72780.772761 said:
I've read a few replys with people who are talking out of their asses. Please, if you don't know about the economy or how it works, please DO NOT POST. Thanks ;)
This coming from the man whose idea was to give the $800 billion back to the American consumer so they could spend it on Diana Commemerative Plates or Pick up trucks or whatever peopkle spend there money on nowadays

and then confused 800,000,000 with 800,000,000,000

You're right its like chatting with Warren buffet :)
 

werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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bad rider post=18.72780.772774 said:
werepossum post=18.72780.772756 said:
SNIP
The House Republicans have a better plan for a bailout, from what I've seen. Instead of buying the sub-prime, at-risk mortgages to make Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac solvent again, loan them the money to weather this crisis. (The tax payer is already on the hook for these mortgages in either case, even if Congress does nothing.) Put in real changes to the way the mortgage industry operates - require a minimum 10% (not including closing costs) down payment on all mortgages except VA, end in-house appraisals, and add in the Democrat bailout bill's limitations and controls on executive pay and bonuses and the increased oversight, and you might have a decent plan. And sub-prime mortgages must be banned. Common sense should tell you that if you can't qualify for a mortgage at the going rate, you certainly can't afford it at a higher rate no matter what financial gyrations a lender goes through. The problem CAN be fixed, but subsidizing rich people with poor people's money will just dig a deeper hole.
Then how would you propose to fix the crisis?
Would you follow the republicans route or move in a different direction?

BTW good summing up of how it happened.
Last paragraph - throw away the Bush plan entirely, then take the House Republicans' basic plan, add in the controls the Democrats added in their plan, and ban and/or criminalize the practices that got us in this mess. Also, while I disagree with virtually everything Khell said about CEOs, he does have the faintest hint of a point buried in there somewhere. Both Raines and Howard were sued by the federal government for their roles in falsely stating Fannie Mae's profits and net worth, which netted them tens of millions in bonuses and stock options. Both settled, returning about 5% (if I remember correctly) plus agreeing not to exercise further stock options. When CEOs/CFOs mis-state earnings and they and usually others reap contractual bonuses, everyone's bonus should be returned to the company. The CEOs/CFOs should return 125% of their bonuses and a civil or criminal investigation should automatically be triggered. CEOs/CFOs who intentionally over-state earnings to trigger huge bonuses should be prosecuted.

Bottom line, the Democrats pushing for more sub-prime loans combined with the Republicans pushing for less regulation is a bad, bad combination.
 

Fineldar

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Jun 8, 2008
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Pipotchi post=18.72780.772823 said:
This coming from the man whose idea was to give the $800 billion back to the American consumer so they could spend it on Diana Commemerative Plates or Pick up trucks or whatever peopkle spend there money on nowadays
Dude man, you can spend $2000 to get some sweet lifts your your truck and be bichn'. Apparently that's what kids spend their money on here in Texas.

werepossum post=18.72780.772826 said:
Last paragraph - throw away the Bush plan entirely, then take the House Republicans' basic plan, add in the controls the Democrats added in their plan, and ban and/or criminalize the practices that got us in this mess.
So make making stupid decision illegal? Won't that put almost every average American into our already overcrowded jail? How would your do it? Moderate every single transaction? Put a dollar amount and hope there's no inflation or deflation ever? I know many not-so-rich families have been hitting the old tax put in to make sure rich people are paying taxes. A percent value and hope deals are always as good/bad as they are now? Wasn't that part of the bailout plan anyway, making the banks be smarter?

Indigo_Dingo post=18.72780.772848 said:
I don't pretend to be an economics major, but wouldn't one of the better options to help the economy be to incentivise larger companies to set up shop in the U.S. by repealing Monopoly laws while still allowing the government to step in on any business of unreasonable pricing?
Monopolies are bad, unless they're controlled by benevolent leaders who have everyone else's best interest at heart. Government control in industry is one of the things that the U.S. is against, which is why there aren't nationalized companies, and why electricity was de-regulated and caused Enron stuff.
 

Eiseman

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Jul 23, 2008
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Imitation Saccharin post=18.72780.772808 said:
Shouldn't the key concern right now be preventing the economic collapse rather then getting our kicks in on the guys on the top rung of the ladder?
Actually, this could very well be a case for doing both. By that I mean, let Wall Street tank AND prevent economic collapse. I was watching Lou Dobbs yesterday, and his guest speakers (three of whom were economists; one had even won the Nobel Prize) brought up a very interesting point. They think that the government is expecting another "trickle-down" effect if they unload $700 billion into these failing banks, but that there's a fundamental flaw in the theory. It wasn't the banks who lent out more money than they actually had, it's the middle class Americans who took on loans they couldn't really pay off. The banks aren't in trouble, the people are.

Shit, I forgot how the discussion went. I'll see if I can look it up, because it really got me thinking. In the end what they ended up proposing (though it was just speculation) that the government was better off spending their $700 billion on protecting the middle class's finances, while letting Wall Street fall off its rotting tree and start over. Thus establishing responsibility and accountability. I think. I really need to look for that discussion.
 
Dec 1, 2007
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Eiseman post=18.72780.772862 said:
one had even won the Nobel Prize
In what?

Eiseman post=18.72780.772862 said:
In the end what they ended up proposing (though it was just speculation) that the government was better off spending their $700 billion on protecting the middle class's finances, while letting Wall Street fall off its rotting tree and start over.
Just going to throw this out there, and I very well could be thinking in the totally wrong direction-

but wouldn't the crippling of dozens (hundreds? Thousands?) of companies hurt the middle class by virtue of the fact that they give us our stuff? I mean, where would you buy your new refrigerator from?
 

drzoidbergmd

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Aug 14, 2008
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Look...the money is $700 billion. Now that is a ridiculous amount of scratch to blow to cover some executives dumb investments. If I had just fucked up like these idiots did and gone to my governor, and asked them to bail me out, they'd laugh me out of the office. And second of all...if the assets continue to plummet...we just lost $700 billion. And even if only say 10% was useless, we're still screwed $70 billion. I don't think these politicians grasp the value of money.
 

bad rider

The prodigal son of a goat boy
Dec 23, 2007
2,252
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Imitation Saccharin post=18.72780.772887 said:
Eiseman post=18.72780.772862 said:
one had even won the Nobel Prize
In what?

Eiseman post=18.72780.772862 said:
In the end what they ended up proposing (though it was just speculation) that the government was better off spending their $700 billion on protecting the middle class's finances, while letting Wall Street fall off its rotting tree and start over.
Just going to throw this out there, and I very well could be thinking in the totally wrong direction-

but wouldn't the crippling of dozens (hundreds? Thousands?) of companies hurt the middle class by virtue of the fact that they give us our stuff? I mean, where would you buy your new refrigerator from?
Gotta agree with Imitation Saccharin people do associate wall street only with big "evil" corporations without thinking of why they got there.
 

bad rider

The prodigal son of a goat boy
Dec 23, 2007
2,252
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drzoidbergmd post=18.72780.772901 said:
Look...the money is $700 billion. Now that is a ridiculous amount of scratch to blow to cover some executives dumb investments. If I had just fucked up like these idiots did and gone to my governor, and asked them to bail me out, they'd laugh me out of the office. And second of all...if the assets continue to plummet...we just lost $700 billion. And even if only say 10% was useless, we're still screwed $70 billion. I don't think these politicians grasp the value of money.
I think your underestimating the good that money would/will do for the US economy.