finite or infinite?
- Thread starter ezeroast
- Start date
Recommended Videos
well, time is a quantity created by man, and it is never the same from day to day If it were, the sun would rise and set at the same time every day, but it doesn't.ezeroast said:
same could be said of any measurement. everything measureable is a quantity created by man so we can make sense of the world.
and I'd have to say that space is finite and shrinking rapidly.
There are mega black holes with gravity strong enough to pull IN other smaller black holes. The only way for space to be expanding is for expansions to be moving faster than the pull of a mega black hole.
j/k
The universe is forever expanding and thus is immeasurable. In order to measure it we would need for it to stop expanding, and since it won't we will never be able to measure it and it will keep on going.
We can take a measurement of the Universe now, but by the time we understand it our info would be outdated.
since it is just a large number that goes on forever, in mathematics that's called infinite. We cannot cap it, so it cannot be measured.
(regarding the above about the super black hole) By the time the pull of a mega black hole reaches the edge of the universe, it's pull is so weak it wouldn't even be the gravitational pull of the moon.
Yes, he's right.
The length of the universe/time is measurable in light years.
My physics teacher actually used a very similar balloon metaphor when explaining the nature of the universe to me.
Granted, his metaphor wasn't about the same thing as this, but it is still relevant.
(I think I asked him why mass wasn't being added to the universe if it was constantly expanding. The answer blew my mind and shoved it up my ass.)
The length of the universe/time is measurable in light years.
My physics teacher actually used a very similar balloon metaphor when explaining the nature of the universe to me.
Granted, his metaphor wasn't about the same thing as this, but it is still relevant.
(I think I asked him why mass wasn't being added to the universe if it was constantly expanding. The answer blew my mind and shoved it up my ass.)
From my limited understanding of quantum physics, I've been lead to believe that the laws of physics may apply differently depending on whether or not the object(s) in question are being perceived.
Perhaps, using that logic, space/time is theoretically infinite, but practically finite, because there will be an inevitable point where intelligent life does not exist to perceive it.
Or, if you're feeling particularly Solipsistic, you could simply say that space/time ceases to exist after True Death, regardless of actuality.
Personally, I think that the debate is pretty pointless; regardless of the existence of true infinity, knowing the truth isn't going to make you sleep better at night. Determine your own stance through introspection, I always say. Better still, take no stance, and turn one's mind to more useful things, like girls and video games (grins).
Perhaps, using that logic, space/time is theoretically infinite, but practically finite, because there will be an inevitable point where intelligent life does not exist to perceive it.
Or, if you're feeling particularly Solipsistic, you could simply say that space/time ceases to exist after True Death, regardless of actuality.
Personally, I think that the debate is pretty pointless; regardless of the existence of true infinity, knowing the truth isn't going to make you sleep better at night. Determine your own stance through introspection, I always say. Better still, take no stance, and turn one's mind to more useful things, like girls and video games (grins).
WTF? By this logic my newborn child is infinite, at least until he's 20 and stops growing. Then again, at that point he could end up getting fat, in which case he's still growing, and thus, infinite.xXAsherahXx said:
How does this argument make any sense exactly?
Einstein said that the universe is finite, yet unbound. An analogy would be like the surface of a ball, you can move infinitely upon its surface and never reach an end, but the ball is not infinite.
time isn't infinite eventually with dark matter(ot energy I forget which) pulling the universe apart eventually time will and space will tear and we will all be screwed.Miumaru said:
(just a note I got all my info from the history channel and such so for all I know the moon could actually be the ass of a giant space elephant)
Ideas are infinite, physical reality cannot be thought in terms of "infinity", because it would be unmeasurable. We humans deal in measurements and units. Essentially the pure definition of an infinite universe, would be a universe that is always bigger than you can measure. Something like this, which has no size and takes up no space, might as well be thought not to exist. Or, in other words, if the universe is infinite, then it doesn't exist.
I've seen it on multiple documentaries. I can't remember the names of the documentaries or the names of the scientists, but it will be billions of years from now.grimsprice said:
No, that is not what I meant. I meant that since the universe is expanding at a constant rate that you cannot measure. Your child is not expanding (at least I hope not); rather, he is growing in spurts. I find it weird to talk about children so could we use another example?Thunderhorse31 said:
Oh and you don't stop growing when you're 20, you keep going until you start shrinking with old age, just at incredibly small rates. Congrats on the newborn though.
You are actually right, and the other guy is wrong any thing that expands infinitely will be of an infinite size at time infinite but At any finite point in time, it will have a finite size.
Technically your friend has a point, if space is expanding, technically it can be measured, therefore it is finite.
Ofcourse another way to rephrase this is the part of the universe that isn't empty is finite, the universe in general (including the parts that havn't been expanded into yet) is probably infinite.
I say probably as it is impossible to prove or disprove that a area is infinite in size as you never know if it is simply a case that you havn't found the borders yet.
Time is also probably infinite, but again it is impossible to prove or disprove this. This is even beter than space as with space some one code find the borders of the universe, it is not possible (well maybe for the doctor) to go to one end of time and then the other..
Ofcourse this is what makes subjects like this so fun to argue about. As there is no quantifiable way to find out the actual answer no one ever can be wrong per se...
Ofcourse another way to rephrase this is the part of the universe that isn't empty is finite, the universe in general (including the parts that havn't been expanded into yet) is probably infinite.
I say probably as it is impossible to prove or disprove that a area is infinite in size as you never know if it is simply a case that you havn't found the borders yet.
Time is also probably infinite, but again it is impossible to prove or disprove this. This is even beter than space as with space some one code find the borders of the universe, it is not possible (well maybe for the doctor) to go to one end of time and then the other..
Ofcourse this is what makes subjects like this so fun to argue about. As there is no quantifiable way to find out the actual answer no one ever can be wrong per se...
No...xXAsherahXx said:
The balloon is finite. Finite need not mean stangnant, but rather of definite dimension.
The dimensions of the balloon can be measured using some simple calculus.
We'll take the radius of the balloon as being, "r."
The radius of the balloon (r) is ever-changing with time (growing), so at any point in time the radius of the balloon can be described by the derivative of the equation describing the radius of the balloon: dr/dt
dr = change in radius with respect to time (dt).
If we have an equation for the diameter (or radius) of the balloon we can know the exact dimensions of the balloon at any given time. Even if we do not know the exact diameter of the balloon, as long as we know the diameter at one specific time and the rate at which it is expanding, we can put exact dimensions on it at a given time in the future.
Expanding =/= infinite. Period.
Well that sure does put the whole "Moon is made of green cheese" theory in a whole new light. XDCrazyMedic said:
Well there's you're problem. Once you measure something, you acknowledge it's finite nature. If the measured distance is 30 miles, it's 30 miles. That's not infinite. If it is, my car should get infinite miles per gallon.ezeroast said:
Ok, so to keep with the expanding balloon analogy: Today, the distance from point A to point B is 1 inch. (That's not infinite. Is it?) Tomorrow, it'll be 2 inches. (Still not infinite.) The day after, 3 inches, etc. It has infinite growth, but the exact distance at any given time is still finite & measurable.
My understanding is that time is actually a measurement of how long light takes to travel a certain distance in ideal conditions (vaccuum, etc). If that is the case, then while all mass was concentrated in a singularity (pre-big bang), then light (photons) could only travel within the singularity but since there is no unit-length, it DOESN'T move, and therefore time doesn't exist (or, is zero). This all comes with the qualifier, of course, that I'm an engineering student and I much prefer to stick to normal sized things in normal time at normal speed so I can apply more or less classical maths. I'll just wait for a physics major to come correct me or something.xXAsherahXx said: