Five O'Clock Charlie's at it again...

Gergar12

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Literally, ignore him until he kills someone or causes harm. Between climate change, Ukraine, and maybe Taiwan along with OPEC spiking energy prices up we have enough problems to deal with.
 

Silvanus

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Literally, ignore him until he kills someone or causes harm. Between climate change, Ukraine, and maybe Taiwan along with OPEC spiking energy prices up we have enough problems to deal with.
Hmm, can't help but think this is the exact approach that's led to climate change being such a big issue in the first place.
 
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Gergar12

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Hmm, can't help but think this is the exact approach that's led to climate change being such a big issue in the first place.
What is Kim going to do? Build a million nuclear weapons. Between South Korea having a more robust economy, and a more tech-heavy military and North Korea being a small land area that can be attacked with our strategic nuclear weapons, we don't have anything to worry about.
 

Silvanus

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What is Kim going to do? Build a million nuclear weapons. Between South Korea having a more robust economy, and a more tech-heavy military and North Korea being a small land area that can be attacked with our strategic nuclear weapons, we don't have anything to worry about.
I mean, yes, them building a large amount of nuclear weaponry is the fear.

Having a higher tech military, or the ability to strike them back, isn't really the guarantee of safety you seem to be considering it, since they only need to successfully hit once to obliterate millions of people and the economic/political centre of a country.

Honestly though, a lot more could have been done on the Western side to assuage North Korean fears. Endless military posturing might play well with a jingoistic domestic audience, but it doesn't actually help a lot of the time. Neither side seems actually interested in rapprochement, and that reflects just as badly on us.
 

Eacaraxe

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What is Kim going to do? Build a million nuclear weapons. Between South Korea having a more robust economy, and a more tech-heavy military and North Korea being a small land area that can be attacked with our strategic nuclear weapons, we don't have anything to worry about.
Uhh...


Yes, you read that right. In retaliation for North Korea's ballistic missile "tests", the South Koreans accidentally bombed themselves.
 
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Gergar12

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Uhh...


Yes, you read that right. In retaliation for North Korea's ballistic missile "tests", the South Koreans accidentally bombed themselves.
You do realize this is the same nation that just created a fifth-generation fighter something only Russia, China, and the US have done. Also, the K2 tank is likely the second or third best-produced tank in the world.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You do realize this is the same nation that just created a fifth-generation fighter something only Russia, China, and the US have done. Also, the K2 tank is likely the second or third best-produced tank in the world.
Doesn't do a lot of good if they can't use it. Putting Russia on this list should clue you in to how not-definitive that statement is.
 
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Eacaraxe

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You do realize this is the same nation that just created a fifth-generation fighter something only Russia, China, and the US have done. Also, the K2 tank is likely the second or third best-produced tank in the world.
And, they just -- and I cannot stress this enough -- accidentally bombed themselves in retaliation for a North Korean missile test. They could have a literal, real-life, honest to God actual Star Destroyer sitting in a fuckin' hangar somewhere, and no turbolaser on the planet will undo the fact they accidentally bombed themselves in retaliation for a North Korean missile test.

What, are the South Koreans just lording over North Korea the fact they're the only country on the planet that can bomb South Korea without starting World War III? Is it a "haha, look what we can do that you can't do!" thing?

It's like giving someone the stink-eye while picking your nose, and instead of flicking your booger at them, eating it.
 
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Gergar12

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Doesn't do a lot of good if they can't use it. Putting Russia on this list should clue you in to how not-definitive that statement is.
Dude SK’s military beat the US military vs North Vietnam, and Viet Cong in the Vietnam War. They are no slouch, they could deal with North Korea on their own if they needed to. North Vietnam was one of the best militaries in the Cold War for the Warsaw Pact.
 

Seanchaidh

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The United States should get out of Korea. If the United States has been doing similar provocations (like flying bombers in or around Korean airspace) that go unreported in our media then they should stop doing those as well. It should also pay reparations to Korea for the unfathomably destructive bombing campaigns it inflicted on Korea during a war that was instigated by United States support for a dictatorial regime against a popular movement. And sign a peace treaty, as the United States is still technically at war in Korea.
 

Terminal Blue

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You do realize this is the same nation that just created a fifth-generation fighter something only Russia, China, and the US have done. Also, the K2 tank is likely the second or third best-produced tank in the world.
There's no clear definition of what a fifth generation fighter is, particularly since we have very little publicly available information about the performance of Russia or China's fifth generation fighters, but the KF-21 is probably in a kind of 4.5 category.

I'm also not really sure what military purpose creating a domestic fifth generation fighter serves other than showing off. These things are massive, massive resource sinks to develop and build, they're literally beyond human capabilities to design and, as Russia is demonstrating, being able to design one doesn't mean you're able to afford to build them in sufficient numbers to make any real difference.

But I do think you're correct in that it's very likely that the south would win in some kind of straight up military engagement. The problem is the cost of doing so, in lives and dollars, would be astronomical. North Korea has a lot of crappy old cold war era artillery, and while the accuracy of those pieces might be a bit questionable, it doesn't need to be accurate if the target is cities. South Korea is a small country with a very dense, urbanized population. A lot of people live within range of Northern artillery pieces, and for every one of those people you kill or injure or whose house or workplace you destroy, there is a societal burden to be paid.

And that's not even factoring in the real strategic deterrant. It's not just the nukes, the north definately has chemical and biological weapons (it tests them on its own people). Fire a few shells full of nerve agents into the middle of Seoul (which some artillery pieces could reach) and that's a big societal burden to pay. That whole section of the city has to be evacuated and decontaminated, hospitals are overwhelmed, supplies of certain drugs run low, medical workers have to watch people die horrible and agonizing deaths, they suffer trauma and breakdown. Again, there's a cascade effect.

And meanwhile, what does the south gain? North Korea is incredibly poor, its population basically all have military training and many will be genuinely fanatical. Even if it doesn't turn into a terrible, long, costly counter-insurgency operation, that population is also unlikely to be able to adapt well enough to become economically productive for decades.

So now you're left with the task of developing the north and gaining the trust of its people while also having to repair the catastrophic economic damage inflicted on the south.

And this is assuming the nukes don't come out. If they do then this is no longer simply an economic burden, it's a global humanitarian crisis.
 

Gergar12

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There's no clear definition of what a fifth generation fighter is, particularly since we have very little publicly available information about the performance of Russia or China's fifth generation fighters, but the KF-21 is probably in a kind of 4.5 category.

I'm also not really sure what military purpose creating a domestic fifth generation fighter serves other than showing off. These things are massive, massive resource sinks to develop and build, they're literally beyond human capabilities to design and, as Russia is demonstrating, being able to design one doesn't mean you're able to afford to build them in sufficient numbers to make any real difference.

But I do think you're correct in that it's very likely that the south would win in some kind of straight up military engagement. The problem is the cost of doing so, in lives and dollars, would be astronomical. North Korea has a lot of crappy old cold war era artillery, and while the accuracy of those pieces might be a bit questionable, it doesn't need to be accurate if the target is cities. South Korea is a small country with a very dense, urbanized population. A lot of people live within range of Northern artillery pieces, and for every one of those people you kill or injure or whose house or workplace you destroy, there is a societal burden to be paid.

And that's not even factoring in the real strategic deterrant. It's not just the nukes, the north definately has chemical and biological weapons (it tests them on its own people). Fire a few shells full of nerve agents into the middle of Seoul (which some artillery pieces could reach) and that's a big societal burden to pay. That whole section of the city has to be evacuated and decontaminated, hospitals are overwhelmed, supplies of certain drugs run low, medical workers have to watch people die horrible and agonizing deaths, they suffer trauma and breakdown. Again, there's a cascade effect.

And meanwhile, what does the south gain? North Korea is incredibly poor, its population basically all have military training and many will be genuinely fanatical. Even if it doesn't turn into a terrible, long, costly counter-insurgency operation, that population is also unlikely to be able to adapt well enough to become economically productive for decades.

So now you're left with the task of developing the north and gaining the trust of its people while also having to repair the catastrophic economic damage inflicted on the south.

And this is assuming the nukes don't come out. If they do then this is no longer simply an economic burden, it's a global humanitarian crisis.
This is why I stated we should leave them alone, and when I stated South Korea could take them, I was mostly stating that SK could defend itself. If SK invaded, Seoul would get nuked right away by a low-flying fighter jet by the North. Also, the KF-21 was created with the help of Lockheed and is likely a 4.75 gen, I just rounded it to 5. As for the Chinese J-20, it's very likely a 5th gen based on the fact that they stole data from the F-35 and F-22. The Russians invented the theory of stealth for fighter jets in a paper. And the thing is KF-21 has customers such as Indonesia.
 
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immortalfrieza

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North Korea has been trying to manipulate other countries into attacking them for decades, the U.S. included. They do this because they know if they were to actually attack anyone they'd lose badly to nearly every other military on the planet. So they try to get other countries to attack them so they can scream "CHINA! SAVE US!!!" and get China to take care of the country for them. They know if they strike first China wouldn't back them up. That's been NK's entire military strategy the entire existence of the country, get China to bail them out when they actually get into a war.
 
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RhombusHatesYou

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That's been NK's entire military strategy the entire existence of the country, get China to bail them out when they actually get into a war.
Yep. North Korea owes it's continuing existence mostly to two basic issues:

- China really likes having a buffer state between it and a nation that bases a large number of US troops.
- South Korea took notes from German Unification and realised that they'd have to eat an even bigger shit sandwich if they had to bootstrap North Korea into socio-economic parity.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Yep. North Korea owes it's continuing existence mostly to two basic issues:

- China really likes having a buffer state between it and a nation that bases a large number of US troops.
- South Korea took notes from German Unification and realised that they'd have to eat an even bigger shit sandwich if they had to bootstrap North Korea into socio-economic parity.
There's a third one: China knows that if North Korea falls, up to twenty-five million barely-educated, highly-indoctrinated citizens will come wandering over its border, and it does not want to have to deal with that.