Fixed Camera Angles appreciation thread

[dscross]

This thread is about games with fixed camera angles, or whose camera follows a fixed trajectory that is not controlled by the player. It has some major benefits:

- there is something great about seeing each scene as a work of art from exactly the perspective that the artist intended

- it helps create the illusion that you're seeing one small piece of a much larger world that existed long before you arrived. Whereas being able to examine the environment from every angle often just shows you how small and limited it really is

- it's hard to appreciate all the attention to detail when you're rotating the camera around and the scenery is whipping by. And you are mainly focused on being able to see your character's path, not appreciating the scenery.

- it allows for vastly different perspectives/angles depending on what the artist wants to emphasise

- from a technical perspective, it allows pre-rendered backgrounds with much greater detail than is possible in real-time

Share a screenshot showing the virtues of good old fixed cameras.

 

[dscross]

This thread is about games with fixed camera angles, or whose camera follows a fixed trajectory that is not controlled by the player. It has some major benefits:

- there is something great about seeing each scene as a work of art from exactly the perspective that the artist intended

- it helps create the illusion that you're seeing one small piece of a much larger world that existed long before you arrived. Whereas being able to examine the environment from every angle often just shows you how small and limited it really is

- it's hard to appreciate all the attention to detail when you're rotating the camera around and the scenery is whipping by. And you are mainly focused on being able to see your character's path, not appreciating the scenery.

- it allows for vastly different perspectives/angles depending on what the artist wants to emphasise

- from a technical perspective, it allows pre-rendered backgrounds with much greater detail than is possible in real-time

Share a screenshot showing the virtues of good old fixed cameras.

Well since you mentioned that part -


God of War's camera work (up until the upcoming one, even though they are doing something possibly more unique [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-06-21-god-of-war-director-explains-why-the-entire-game-has-no-camera-cuts] now) was a work of art in itself.

Spoiler

There is some good insight into what differentiates their system from other fixed camera games here. [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/the-making-of-god-of-war-iii?page=2]

 

[Trunkage]

I liked Brothers: Tale of Two Suns...

that's the best I can do. I got annoyed with Pyre and it had a small landscape that you panned across. That was too restrictive. They aren't for me.

 

[demoman_chaos]

I always felt Metal Gear Solid 3's default camera should have been the fixed one in the later versions. I know people have issues seeing in those expansive environments full of trees, but the areas were designed for a fixed camera. The angles and the way the camera tracked you were good. It allowed you to use your thumb for the face buttons more. I do use the new camera in MGS3 a lot, though. Kojima said he kept the fixed camera for so long because moving cameras made him motion sick.

The MGS3 fixed camera wasn't bad, but the MGS2 one simply does NOT work at all. Try going back to it and playing the game without the radar and not being spotted. Spoiler- You simply cannot without going into first-person mode every 2 steps because the enemy can see you from well beyond the limits of the camera and in the Big Shell tower E (the conveyor belt one) coming up the stairs without the radar to tell you where the enemies are it is literally impossible to avoid detection since you cannot use first person to see nor can you wiggle the camera to see anything.

Fuck MGS2, seriously fuck it.

 

[dscross]

I liked Brothers: Tale of Two Suns...

that's the best I can do. I got annoyed with Pyre and it had a small landscape that you panned across. That was too restrictive. They aren't for me.

Have you tried Until Dawn yet?

 

[FalloutJack]

The old classic Resident Evil games chose to do this. I think part of the reason why was because of the game's ambience, though limits of technology would also be an issue. Final Fantasy 7 and 9 should also get a mention, just because they're good games. (FF8 is not, so there will be no appreciation there.)

 

[Trunkage]

I liked Brothers: Tale of Two Suns...

that's the best I can do. I got annoyed with Pyre and it had a small landscape that you panned across. That was too restrictive. They aren't for me.

Have you tried Until Dawn yet?

That reminds me, I have tried another one that sort of fits. Telltale walking dead. I've wanted to play Until Dawn but keep getting distracted (Xoom 2 ATM!)

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The MGS3 fixed camera wasn't bad, but the MGS2 one simply does NOT work at all. Try going back to it and playing the game without the radar and not being spotted. Spoiler- You simply cannot without going into first-person mode every 2 steps because the enemy can see you from well beyond the limits of the camera and in the Big Shell tower E (the conveyor belt one) coming up the stairs without the radar to tell you where the enemies are it is literally impossible to avoid detection since you cannot use first person to see nor can you wiggle the camera to see anything.

Fuck MGS2, seriously fuck it.

Same thing with MGS3, the radar was the only thing that ever made the MGS fixed camera work. MGS2 is just worse because of the levels being basically all small interiors. Whereas MGS3 had more open levels with the camo so you can use grass or crawl to move forward without getting spotted as easy. If you just proceeded forward without sneaking or using 1st-person a lot, you'd walk into detection a lot in MGS3.

 

[demoman_chaos]

Same thing with MGS3, the radar was the only thing that ever made the MGS fixed camera work. MGS2 is just worse because of the levels being basically all small interiors. Whereas MGS3 had more open levels with the camo so you can use grass or crawl to move forward without getting spotted as easy. If you just proceeded forward without sneaking or using 1st-person a lot, you'd walk into detection a lot in MGS3.

MGS3 doesn't have a radar. You have a motion detector (which picks up animals but not stationary guards), but that is about it.

In MGS3 you could use the right-stick to move the camera, which in conjunction with the more open areas meant it was much easier to spot enemies before they saw you.

 

[dscross]

The old classic Resident Evil games chose to do this. I think part of the reason why was because of the game's ambience, though limits of technology would also be an issue. Final Fantasy 7 and 9 should also get a mention, just because they're good games. (FF8 is not, so there will be no appreciation there.)

I love 8 as well as all the others you mentioned. I guess I'm in the minority. Maybe I am a fixed camera angle whore.

 

[Squilookle]

I thought this was going to be about movies, and I was all primed to jump in and denounce shaky-cam and babble excitedly about how Dunkirk didn't just do the same old bolted-to-the-wing aerial combat fixed camera we've seen ever since Wings did it in 1927, but they also had that one shot of a camera bolted to the side of that ship as it keeled over and the sea rose up on the entire side of frame and swallowed it up from the side. Good times.

So anyway er... yeah. fixed camera games are groovy too I guess.

 

[dscross]

I thought this was going to be about movies, and I was all primed to jump in and denounce shaky-cam and babble excitedly about how Dunkirk didn't just do the same old bolted-to-the-wing aerial combat fixed camera we've seen ever since Wings did it in 1927, but they also had that one shot of a camera bolted to the side of that ship as it keeled over and the sea rose up on the entire side of frame and swallowed it up from the side. Good times.

So anyway er... yeah. fixed camera games are groovy too I guess.

Why don't you start one in off topic discussions?

 

[Kyrian007]

One of the most beautiful games I have ever played had fixed cameras (with some transitions into battle or FMV that still look pretty good). "Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean" isn't without fault (the voice acting is Resident Evil bad, no actually a little worse) but with a fun (for an ATB) turn based CCG battle system and the amazing visuals... it is a really good game.

Spoiler: overland

Spoiler: battle

 

[Zetatrain]

I really miss the fix camera angles from the older games of the Tales of series. It's amazing how much FCAs can change the look and feel of the environment. The level designs of more recent Tales of games feel inferior to the older ones and i believe this is mostly due to the abandonment of FCAs and the usage of fully controllable 3rd person cameras.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Same thing with MGS3, the radar was the only thing that ever made the MGS fixed camera work. MGS2 is just worse because of the levels being basically all small interiors. Whereas MGS3 had more open levels with the camo so you can use grass or crawl to move forward without getting spotted as easy. If you just proceeded forward without sneaking or using 1st-person a lot, you'd walk into detection a lot in MGS3.

MGS3 doesn't have a radar. You have a motion detector (which picks up animals but not stationary guards), but that is about it.

In MGS3 you could use the right-stick to move the camera, which in conjunction with the more open areas meant it was much easier to spot enemies before they saw you.

I know MGS3 doesn't have a radar. I was saying that MGS without the Soliton radar (MGS3) doesn't work with a fixed camera. It's why MG3's camera was complained about it in many reviews while it was never an issue with MGS or MGS2. And, also why Subsistence has a normal camera. Don't get me wrong, I still very much enjoyed MGS3 but the top-down camera was a pain to properly scope out the area in front of you.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

The old classic Resident Evil games chose to do this. I think part of the reason why was because of the game's ambience, though limits of technology would also be an issue. Final Fantasy 7 and 9 should also get a mention, just because they're good games. (FF8 is not, so there will be no appreciation there.)

IIRC, the PS1 wasn't capable of full 3d environments with the level of detail the team wanted. So they chose to create invisible boundaries to hold the player, enemies and props, while filling in the background with the prerendered backdrops we know and love, giving the illusion of environments much more detailed than what the hardware could handle. Of course, to maintain the illusion, everything needed to be seen at the exact angle needed for the boundaries and backgrounds to match up, hence the fixed camera.

So yeah, technical limitations a major part. I assume a similar rationale lies behind the choice for prerendered backgrounds in games like FFVII to IX as well.

 

[dscross]

The old classic Resident Evil games chose to do this. I think part of the reason why was because of the game's ambience, though limits of technology would also be an issue. Final Fantasy 7 and 9 should also get a mention, just because they're good games. (FF8 is not, so there will be no appreciation there.)

IIRC, the PS1 wasn't capable of full 3d environments with the level of detail the team wanted. So they chose to create invisible boundaries to hold the player, enemies and props, while filling in the background with the prerendered backdrops we know and love, giving the illusion of environments much more detailed than what the hardware could handle. Of course, to maintain the illusion, everything needed to be seen at the exact angle needed for the boundaries and backgrounds to match up, hence the fixed camera.

So yeah, technical limitations a major part. I assume a similar rationale lies behind the choice for prerendered backgrounds in games like FFVII to IX as well.

People keep using this techinical limitations argument about resident evil, but I don't know how anyone can second guess what the developers intentions were in the mid 90s. Maybe they preferred fixed camera angles anyway at the time because they are more cinematic, more atmospheric, allows for jump scares and tension by only seeing what the developers want you to, makes searching rooms to find items more interesting... Etc etc.

 

[demoman_chaos]

I know MGS3 doesn't have a radar. I was saying that MGS without the Soliton radar (MGS3) doesn't work with a fixed camera. It's why MG3's camera was complained about it in many reviews while it was never an issue with MGS or MGS2. And, also why Subsistence has a normal camera. Don't get me wrong, I still very much enjoyed MGS3 but the top-down camera was a pain to properly scope out the area in front of you.

Considering I had one file where I beat the game more than 15 times, I would say it worked just fine. You can't blitz through carelessly with it, and that is kind of the whole point of Metal Gear. The camera was FAR better than in MGS2 (which very often had unseeable enemies), which didn't get the same camera shame because at the time of MGS2 there weren't really any stealth games with proper 3rd person cameras. MGS3 got the camera hate because a few had come out (like Splinter Cell) so the overhead camera seemed "outdated" and people made what wasn't actually an issue into an "issue" which led to the change.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

snip

People keep using this techinical limitations argument about resident evil, but I don't know how anyone can second guess what the developers intentions were in the mid 90s. Maybe they preferred fixed camera angles anyway at the time because they are more cinematic, more atmospheric, allows for jump scares and tension by only seeing what the developers want you to, makes searching rooms to find items more interesting... Etc etc.

It's not second guessing.

It's well documented in interviews with Mikami and other people who worked on the first game that many of its design decisions, including the prerendered backgrounds and static camera, arose from having to work around the technical limitations of the PS1.

Don't believe me?

Spoiler: Here it is from Mikami and Ampo themselves

Much of Resident Evil's design arose from technical workarounds. What was it like working within these constraints?

Ampo: We had originally attempted to have everything appear in full polygons. However, it became very clear early on that this wouldn't be possible given the limitation of the hardware at the time. The director's priority was making sure the zombies' visuals conveyed a sense of fear, so the decision was made to use polygons for them. The backgrounds were then swapped out to pre-rendered visuals, and this was when we decided to use the static camera as well.

The fixed camera system might actually be Resident Evil's most distinctive feature. Where did this approach come from? Were other options created or considered?

Mikami: At first, we were developing RE as a fully 3D game. But the graphics level that we were going for didn't get along so well with the original PlayStation's specs. It was looking like, if we didn't make a change somewhere, the project could end up on indefinite hold.

That was when we took a look at Alone in the Dark. The environments were pre-rendered, and the characters and such were in real-time 3D. It seemed like that approach would allow us to create the game that we wanted, but there were control issues, and the changed perspective had an effect on immersion, making the player feel a bit more detached. It took a little bit of time to get my feelings in order and make the call to change it.

Source

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I know MGS3 doesn't have a radar. I was saying that MGS without the Soliton radar (MGS3) doesn't work with a fixed camera. It's why MG3's camera was complained about it in many reviews while it was never an issue with MGS or MGS2. And, also why Subsistence has a normal camera. Don't get me wrong, I still very much enjoyed MGS3 but the top-down camera was a pain to properly scope out the area in front of you.

Considering I had one file where I beat the game more than 15 times, I would say it worked just fine. You can't blitz through carelessly with it, and that is kind of the whole point of Metal Gear. The camera was FAR better than in MGS2 (which very often had unseeable enemies), which didn't get the same camera shame because at the time of MGS2 there weren't really any stealth games with proper 3rd person cameras. MGS3 got the camera hate because a few had come out (like Splinter Cell) so the overhead camera seemed "outdated" and people made what wasn't actually an issue into an "issue" which led to the change.

I didn't say MGS3 was unplayable or anything, just harder (more effort really) to play than the previous games because it didn't have the radar system. The radar system basically allowed you to know the layout of the area in front of you much like a normal camera does. It's similar to a top down game like Divinity Original Sin where you have to move the camera ahead of you to spot enemies that you would just inherently see with a normal camera.