Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

Blade_125

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Tenmar said:
I'm sorry John but we both know you are being dishonest here when your opinion becomes "you are proving her point". We both know this is a kneejerk reaction response just like a good deal of the other crap we have seen that actually doesn't offer anything to the discussion.

Also it ignores that her argument that if the video game industry really is sexist then it should be based on the games created in the video game industry, not a solo project on newgrounds.

Which is also ironic considering that on the news reel we have a plea for women to be outright violated, maimed and killed in cold blood by xenomorphs(not exactly the biggest alien fan, saw Aliens when I was young and GTFO). So while one side we have women and a petition to be exactly part of the violence of video games but on the other side we can't tolerate the poorest form of insulting that involves a women being "beaten" up in a flash game. This is an outright double standard.

Also finally one main criticism and outrage here forgoes the logical conclusion of Anita's argument. That if the video game industry in all sectors is really sexist. Then the people working in the video game industry are themselves sexist or have people who are sexist that are making critical decisions when it comes to the publishing of articles to the development of video games.

Take any of the games she claims is to be sexist such as Bastion, Gravity Rush, Assassins Creed, Bayonetta and the like then there needs to be accountability to root out these sexist employees. Does this mean Shigeru Miyamoto is sexist for creating Zelda and Princess Peach/Toadstool who were made into the damsel in distress stereotype? Or how about Sega or Platinum Games cause according to Anita that playing that game makes men want to molest women. Which designer and artists are sexist there? Cause you certainly can't have products that are sexist without sexist people in charge.

Also consider these videos and article when it comes to the whole point of video games and the lack of research Anita actually does in her work.

One more point John, with all due respect this is a crap news story cause all it does is easy outrage and doesn't actually offer the coherent dissent from people who think that Anita is either unqualified to do this project or so incredibly biased. I wanna see some actual journalism here giving the big picture offering actual context. I don't like seeing tabloid crap that does nothing but spark pointless outrage without actual thought or discussion.

http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml



I think you miss the real point (although I think Anita does as well). It's not specifically that the video games industry is sexist. It's that the attitude toward women is very prevalent in the world. It unfortunetly has been a slow process in changing the views of the average person. When you stop and think about it, it hasn't even been 100 years that women have been allowed to vote in most western countries (I won't even go into how women are treated in non western countries).

The positive to take away from Anita's video's is that it highlights that we can't except that sexism doesn't exist (or any other for of discrimination for that matter). It takes constant vigilance to make sure everyone is treated equally.

A much better movie to watch is called Miss representation. Which focus's on the media as a whole. The creater of the movie asks herself does she want her daughter to grow up in this world. I asked myself the same question (Hypothetically if I have a daughter)and my answer was no.

I challange anyone here who doesn't think sexism exists to watch this movie. It also points out the probelm that men have growing up which leads to the problems in sexism.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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Tenmar said:
Which is also ironic considering that on the news reel we have a plea for women to be outright violated, maimed and killed in cold blood by xenomorphs(not exactly the biggest alien fan, saw Aliens when I was young and GTFO). So while one side we have women and a petition to be exactly part of the violence of video games but on the other side we can't tolerate the poorest form of insulting that involves a women being "beaten" up in a flash game. This is an outright double standard.
There is a pretty big gulf between what essentially boils down to a revision of the source material and to beating up this very specific person. I think you're grasping at straws trying to pin that as a double standard.
 

coil

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Apr 5, 2007
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While I understand the game itself has already vanished, I have to feel like the Escapist shouldn't be giving a platform to people creating this kind of hate. Report it - it's news, certainly - but maybe without a link to the game itself?

It's a small consolation that the Newgrounds community recognized it for the garbage it is.
 

maninahat

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Nov 8, 2007
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Actual said:
I see no problem with a game about punching someone who annoys you in the face.

OH WAIT! It's a woman? Ban this disgraceful filth!
AnAutisticDog said:
Meh, if it was about beating a man nobody would care.
Well done for completely missing the point. It isn't about her being a woman - its about a blameless person being faced with an unprecedented onslaught of negativity and misogyny, just for talking about video game characters. She's hardly comparable to the Bin Laden and Jar Jar punching bags.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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Tenmar said:
I'm sorry John but we both know you are being dishonest here when your opinion becomes "you are proving her point". We both know this is a kneejerk reaction response just like a good deal of the other crap we have seen that actually doesn't offer anything to the discussion.

Also it ignores that her argument that if the video game industry really is sexist then it should be based on the games created in the video game industry, not a solo project on newgrounds.

Which is also ironic considering that on the news reel we have a plea for women to be outright violated, maimed and killed in cold blood by xenomorphs(not exactly the biggest alien fan, saw Aliens when I was young and GTFO). So while one side we have women and a petition to be exactly part of the violence of video games but on the other side we can't tolerate the poorest form of insulting that involves a women being "beaten" up in a flash game. This is an outright double standard.

Also finally one main criticism and outrage here forgoes the logical conclusion of Anita's argument. That if the video game industry in all sectors is really sexist. Then the people working in the video game industry are themselves sexist or have people who are sexist that are making critical decisions when it comes to the publishing of articles to the development of video games.

Take any of the games she claims is to be sexist such as Bastion, Gravity Rush, Assassins Creed, Bayonetta and the like then there needs to be accountability to root out these sexist employees. Does this mean Shigeru Miyamoto is sexist for creating Zelda and Princess Peach/Toadstool who were made into the damsel in distress stereotype? Or how about Sega or Platinum Games cause according to Anita that playing that game makes men want to molest women. Which designer and artists are sexist there? Cause you certainly can't have products that are sexist without sexist people in charge.

Also consider these videos and article when it comes to the whole point of video games and the lack of research Anita actually does in her work.

One more point John, with all due respect this is a crap news story cause all it does is easy outrage and doesn't actually offer the coherent dissent from people who think that Anita is either unqualified to do this project or so incredibly biased. I wanna see some actual journalism here giving the big picture offering actual context. I don't like seeing tabloid crap that does nothing but spark pointless outrage without actual thought or discussion.

http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml




EDIT: After playing the game and actually reading the text before the actual outrage let me say a couple of things.

1. There is a long into that is actually very clear in the intentions of the actual flash creator about equality in video games and he expresses his opinion that she conned people out of their money and even mentions that lack of integrity in her research to which people have certainly proven that she doesn't do research very well and often misses a lot of the content that she arrives at her opinion.

2. It was actually being clever in the sense that wanting equality in videos means that women are going to get physically hurt. Once again as ugly as it maybe you can't have it both ways. This just takes it while certainly a kneejerk reaction to a logical extreme and women getting hurt isn't something we haven't seen before in video games, movies, and books.

3. All the flash is involves is clicking on the picture as it slowly morphs into other rendered images of people who have been beaten up. Not very gory or over the top, just a slow click click click to get a picture of her "beaten up".
Frankly, I don't find any merit in the "opposition," such as it is. That is, people are welcome to disagree with her, and the Destructoid article you linked is a perfect example of politely doing just that - it is a reasoned discussion, not an attack.

But the DDOS, threats, links with violence, porn drawings, Wiki vandalism, etc - those are not okay. And if anyone think of defending any of that, I think they need to seriously examine themselves because they are perpetuating a terrifyingly misogynist gamer culture. Because while her points originally may have been about the industry - that is, the ones making the games - the entire culture around gaming is terribly messed up in how it treats women.

If you can look at all of this [http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/07/what-online-harassment-looks] and not see that we have a terrible problem with misogyny in online gaming culture, then you are blind.
 

Sylocat

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Nov 13, 2007
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Reeeeeeeeeally helping make your case that Sarkeesian is upset over nothing.
 

level27smartass

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Zaik post=7.381107.14994840 said:
I'm inclined to agree that it was little more than a scam, but I don't really see how you can blame her that there are gullible retards that will throw money at a perceived injustice to feel better about themselves.
Zaik post=7.381107.14994840 said:
It is not a scam when you knowingly and willing gave money to a person who is going make product that you and other people want to see. With that kind of logic your using could call the double fine adventure a scam, for example the pitch for the double fine adventure was if you give us money we will make a game that dose not exist beyond point that it's going to be an adventure game. Think about it a bunch of people throw an obscene amount of money at something they wanted to see happen. So what's wrong with documentary series that people gave a lot money toward because they deiced too.
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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Tenmar said:
Given that you keep reposting that same Bayonetta video, and the "Anita Sarkeesian, college graduate" video comments on it as well, I want to ask if you understand why advocating for the creation of voluntary-use safe-spaces for women is neither anti-feminist, nor tantamount to segregation as it was historically practised along racial (or sexual, for that matter) lines?

-m
 

coil

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Disagreement is fine - and healthy. Debate is designed to enlighten. But (1) be prepared to back up arguments with facts and logic, and (2) be willing to alter your opinion in the face of stronger, contrary evidence.

Personally, I think Sarkeesian is off-target (and did not donate to her project). I think there are much better investigations into the absolutely real problem of sexism in the games industry and gamer culture. But as others have said, there is an immeasurably large gap between disagreement and the vicious, hateful attacks Sarkeesian received on Kickstarter and Youtube.

Here's a much better analysis of sexism in gaming, for those willing to learn something: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php
 

ElPatron

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Jul 18, 2011
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>people infringing her right to express her viewpoints
>detractors are actually denied to express themselves

Don't mind if I do, but since I megaloathe both parties fighting this war so I hope more fuel is thrown to the fire so I can cook some popcorns.

Oh, come on, the "gaming community" we are "part of" was always like this. Don't tell me we will suddenly start to look bad.

itsthesheppy said:
To be fair, making videos about general tropes in pop culture is not exactly equal to an interactive game depicting and encouraging violence against a specific human being.
I have played games that allowed me to shoot Russians, Germans and "A-rabs", does Infinity Ward encourage people to commit hate crimes against those people?
 

Rakor

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I mean, yes this sort of thing is in poor taste, idiotic, childish, and downright some people being jerks. Why are some people taking this as meaning the gaming community as a whole is like this? Or some people pointing at humanity as a whole. That kind of irks me. That is stereotyping based on extreme examples. Kind of misses the point if you support her stuff. The gaming community as a whole did not put up that travesty of a "game," some jerk did.

That said.......what is she going to spend $160,000 on? Admittedly the requested amount was significantly less......but she's making a handful of web videos. People frequently make rather impressive web videos for not a whole lot. Time being the major expense with some. And she wants to get paid thousands of dollars to make a handful of videos. And people give it to her and more because she's a feminist. This smells of scam, though of course I cannot know one way or the other. Possibly even the campaign against her is a part of the scam to just curry her more favor. Or maybe the world is ideal and she legitimately believes in the project and will channel any extra money to a good cause or will return it. Unfortunately I lack the powers to know these things magically. I certainly would like to hope she is on the straight and narrow, but I'm a paranoid guy.

I still think this money could go to much better things than a few web videos breaking down concepts we already know about. I wonder if she has made any statement as to what specific things this large amount of money will go into.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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Tenmar said:
Expect what should or shouldn't be accepted consequences of becoming a "public persona" has no bearing on your suggested double standard.

Perhaps it's your stated unfamiliarity with the material, but the issue concerning the new Aliens game has more in common with Gimli using hammer instead of an axe in the new LOTR moba. The marines in the Aliens universe are a mixed gender force; it's a lore issue not necessarily a gender equality one.
 

tautologico

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Apr 5, 2010
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Tenmar said:
Take any of the games she claims is to be sexist such as Bastion, Gravity Rush, Assassins Creed, Bayonetta and the like then there needs to be accountability to root out these sexist employees. Does this mean Shigeru Miyamoto is sexist for creating Zelda and Princess Peach/Toadstool who were made into the damsel in distress stereotype? Or how about Sega or Platinum Games cause according to Anita that playing that game makes men want to molest women. Which designer and artists are sexist there? Cause you certainly can't have products that are sexist without sexist people in charge.
It's not about blaming individuals and saying they're bad people for writing sexist (or racist) stuff. It's not about it at all. The prejudices and preconceptions related to sexism (also to racism) are deeply embedded in our culture, so many people (men AND women) may do or say sexist things without realizing it, because it is ingrained in the way we think about the world. It's a very difficult thing to combat, and that's why we need to raise awareness about these issues, because once people realize that something they've always did is sexist (or racist), in most cases they understand they shouldn't do it anymore. Most people will try to do better once they're aware of the issues.

Nowhere in her videos does Anita say people who made the games are evil and should be named and imprisoned or such. The videos only call attention to what is sexist, to raise awareness. You can disagree with her specific assessments of what's sexist, but the general idea is sound. (And is very bad form to try to justify a videogame in which the objective is to beat up someone, but I don't have time to argue about this and other people are already doing it).
 

Matt_LRR

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Nov 30, 2009
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Slycne said:
Tenmar said:
Expect what should or shouldn't be accepted consequences of becoming a "public persona" has no bearing on your suggested double standard.

Perhaps it's your stated unfamiliarity with the material, but the issue concerning the new Aliens game has more in common with Gimli using hammer instead of an axe in the new LOTR moba. The marines in the Aliens universe are a mixed gender force; it's a lore issue not necessarily a gender equality one.
I'd argue it's both, actually. Male-only playable characters is nonsensical in the lore, but it is also potentially alienating (heh) the women who might otherwise want to play the game. There's no good reason for female characters not to have been included in the first place, even if you don't consider the lore. The lore just makes it twice as unreasonable.

-m
 

Don Savik

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I don't like Anita and her terrible 'feminist' reasoning either, but I disagree with stupid shit like this. Its immature and stupid.

But then again, this is NEWGROUNDS.

WHY ARE WE SURPRISED? ARE WE NEW TO THE INTERNET?

I keep seeing so many articles were people keep getting surprised over the same thing over and over and over and OVER again. You think we would get used to stupidity after 10 years. I'm not going to spew hate filled comments towards the people that make stupid things like these flash games like a lot of you here because idiots are a dime a dozen on the internet. If I spent my time hating all of them, I would lose my mind.