Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[Valis88]

You know if this has proved anything, to me. It's been this.

Men still don't understand women, and I don't know if they ever will.

Also if a women has on opinion, right or wing, she's vilified either way.

Also to top that off, it's better if female gamers let male gamers decide what's best for them.

We still have a ways to go, it seems.

 

[Blade_125]

You still have a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees, but at least you are arguing in the right direction. I meant to use Lara Croft as a hypothetical as the character is well known. Personally I have never done any of the activities that the character has, so I have no idea if her attire is practical. And that is the main point I am making. Does the outfit suit the character and activity/location. But even then that doesn't matter as much if she is a real personality and her decisions and actions make sense. (and yes I agree the movie was terrible. I didn't bother watching the second movie).

I think Ms Sarkeesian is over the top in her views, but there is a reason. Usually when someone is over the top in reaction it's because they have been mistreated. While she pushes to far in on direction it is because she realizes how most women are treated. Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments. Human reaction is to push back when someone pushes us. Attacking her directly isn't going to help her see how to change her arguments, which is why all the idiots attacking her accomplish nothing (although most of them don't want this discussion, they want her to shut up and get into the kitchen).

Unfortunetly most young girls are brought up wrong just as young boys are. They don't feel they are worth enough, and unfortunetly so many things tell them this. One of the issues with dress is that the media makes it seem that girls need to dress slutty to impress boys and that is the only reason, which means their self worth is joined to how well they can impress boys. I'll totally conceed that boys grow up thinking how to impress girls. Hormones control a lot of what we do when we are young. The only problem is that most boys can still keep their own self worth, it is harder for girls to do. But this continues to improve which is why we have to continue to have these discussions. This is all discussed in Miss Representation.

""Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."

And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
"

Art by quota was not my point. THe question is are female characters in video games given depth and real personalites or are they complete window dressing there onyl to serve young males fantasies. I don't think you will find too many that will be hard to classify as one or the other. The point of this is to show how women are depicted in the genre overall, which is a greater reflection of how women are looked at in society.

Thanks for the professional response. It is nice to discuss issues with someone who doesn't resort to namecalling, making stuff up, or pulling in points that have no relevance to the argument.

Edit. I still have issues making the quotes work so sorry for the poor post.

You say I am not seeing forest for the trees? You can't see Lara's character for her breasts!

"Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments."

Comments like this annoy me as I have been especially careful to ONLY address her arguments and reasoning and NOT attack her personally. I have refered to her by her last name, not patronise her calling her by her first name "Anita". I criticise her concerns, not who she is. I never shot the messenger.

Addressing her specific argument is not "attacking her directly".

Lara Croft and almost every female protagonist ever is absolutely NOT AT ALL about trying to seduce boys or get a husband. Have you played ANY game with a female protagonist? They almost never hook up with a guy.

I DO NOT GET where any girl or woman gets the idea her self worth is dependent on their ability to seduce guys. More the precise opposite, how men are pressured and shamed if they have NOT seduced a woman. It is pretty fine for a girl to remain a virgin into her 20's or to say she waits until marriage, but a great shame for a man to be any significant age over the age of consent and still be a virgin, or be unsuccessful with seducing women.

Male and female characters are peripheral and for superficial purpose, it's just sexist to call all the female versions of this "window dressing".

There are games where women are JUST for looks, but so rare like the strippers in Duke Nukem Forever. But that's about it.

Yes, female protagonist serve a male fantasy but not the fantasy you are thinking of, not masturbation material, but a ROLE PLAY.

Let's be fair here, it's hard to see anything past Lara's breasts. They take up a lot of the viewing range

I have never played and of the Tomb Raider games. Not because I care what lara wears, but because the game itself never interested me. I only used her as an example of a well known female character that has some contraversy for her overdeveloped... character design. I was trying to use her and show that games should be judged on the context of the character, but since you keep delving into specifics with her, lets go with purely theoretical examples.

Honestly though I think we are arguing the same thing. We both want characters to reflect what makes sense for the story, setting, and mood of the game.

To some of your other points. Seducing and seeking approval are two different things. I didn't say women dressed a certain way to get laid (because let's be honest, most girls could show up to a bar in a burlap sack and find a guy pretty quick). I said their dress is tied to their worth. Being desired and complemented. And this is a societal issue caused by both genders. Same with sex. Men are suppose to boast about the number of their partners (which is typically inflated) while women are suppose to avoid sex and have fewer partners. The funny thing is that when talking about heterosexual sex the total number of partners on average have to equal for both men and women. If some guy says we slept with 100 women, then either no other guy is having sex, or there are women with higher numbers of partners then they let on. I always laugh when I see headlines of studys that show men have 50% more partners than women. Someone has to tell these people that their hand doesn't count. Anyway I digress. The point is this is all about societies views and that these views need to change, as that will change the media as well, but this kind of change is very slow.

As for attacking Ms Sarkeesian, some of your posts seemed to me at least to be attacking her character and her mental capabilities. If I have misunderstood then my apologies. I don't have the energy to dig through your posts. If you are confident then that's good. If others point out how your comments come across then maybe you should look at your writing. It is hard to convey tone in words obviously.

Some women can be only window dressing, and I can even conciede some of your points on this, but I can see I didn't explain myself well. I mean that my biggest concern is how female characters who are not the lead but still important to the story have no real personality, and usually only act as a foil for the main character to overcome. Yes the damsel in distress is an old story, but just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right.

But that leads back to the view society has. Movies, TV, games, they all make what sells. THe least amount of work for the most amount of profit. Until we stop buying games or going to see movies where the women done make sense then nothing will change.

 

[Valis88]

2. There is nothing wrong with objectification in art and that includes video games. Art does not need to be chained to reality nor should anyone's standards aside from the developer should affect that creation of art for better or worse. There is no way to measure that "evening out".

So I'd assume that a game with constant sexual objectification of men is ok then? I mean no one would have an issue with that right?

You guys would be totally cool with a game that is wall to wall dudes in the buff, with chainguns?

If their is nothing wrong with it, then why isn't it happening now? Why don't we have man meat games eh?

 

[Chives on top of me]

heh...sexism and or "demeaning" depictions of women in video games are not all or nothing. Each depiction/action is judged on a case by case basis...like in the real world.

"why did snake leave Foxhound".....this is contrived... the writer contrived it...if it is well written then it will not seem "out of character". However well written or not this is still the writer making snake do something....back to the clothing issue the designer still puts the character in whatever outfit and their reasons for this action are subject to scrutiny ...how is this unclear?

Contrived... you don't seem to understand how that word is used in literary criticism. It does not mean "everything the writer writes".

con·trived/kənˈtrīvd/
Adjective:

Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Giving a sense of artificiality.

I am not offering a "literary criticism". I am opposing your opinion that a character placed in an outfit in a videogame can be equated to a woman in the real world deciding what to wear....

But what if the CHARACTER would naturally do that from what is established about the character and the world which itself is not contrived to suit a purpose. Then it would not be contrived.

Yes, every story might have to start with some unavoidable contrivance such as establishing Snake's anti-authoritarian ideals, but what naturally comes from that would be him leaving Foxhound.

You ARE offering literary criticism, you are criticising works that have been written, they had a script and written story by objecting to my criticism.

Realise if you say that everything a writer has any character do is contrived because the writer wrote it, then it doesn't matter what they write, they could never be criticised for being excessively contrived.

You CAN equate decisions fictional characters make to real world logic, like a real world woman applying logic to her tastes and prejudices.

This seems to have gone off the rails somewhat...

"But what if the CHARACTER would naturally do that from what is established about the character"
...yes and how is this first established? The writer writes it. The writer makes all the decisions. Just because the writer/designer has established reasons in their "world" for whatever action does not mean those actions cannot be scrutinized....

"You ARE offering literary criticism, you are criticizing works that have been written"

Really?
literary criticism
noun
1. a written evaluation of a work of literature [syn: criticism]
2. the informed analysis and evaluation of literature

I do not see how I was doing this......

"Realize if you say that everything a writer has any character do is contrived because the writer wrote it, then it doesn't matter what they write"
That is not what I've said at all. My position is that what matters (when judging what a character is doing) is what the writer has written.

"You CAN equate decisions fictional characters make to real world logic, like a real world woman applying logic to her tastes and prejudices
If a character is written to apply any logic to what they do then I guess..yes...

All of this is an aside to the original discussion "The writer/developer/designer is responsible (accountable) for the actions their creations take and for the clothes they are placed in." Objecting to how Lara Croft is depicted (clothing or body type) =/= telling a real world woman to coverup.

 

[clangunn]

Last post on this thread, I promise >.<

Have any of you guys ever stopped to ask a real woman gamer, how she feels about all of this?

Or is it simply ok to assume that you know how women feel, or how they should feel.

Just putting that out there....

I gotta say one thing about this.

How a person feels doesn't actually matter compared to the actual facts of a situation. Right now a good deal of people who either support or dissent this whole project are throwing out this "common wisdom" that the video game industry and the video game communities are "sexist". This in itself a logical fallacy because it is nothing more than one giant assumption without actually holding any specific company, or organization accountable to which one would then have to look at the people involved in that company or organization in terms of their leadership and representation.

Except the the assumption isn't that the video game industry is sexist... The point that many have tried to make in these threads is that Sarkeesian has attempted to point out that many of the societal norms that limit the bandwidth of prospective female representation to a few standardized recurring typologies (i.e. "tropes") also exist within the medium of video games. These tropes, by in large, play into standard narrative typologies which were commonly perceived to be more readily received by what has long been the larger majority of game consumers. Those being: a)primarily wealthy; b)possessing access to disposable income (their own or their parents; and b) primarily young. There's a significant number of weaknesses in this argument, but she isn't saying "You Tenmar. Your a ****ing sexist because you enjoy video games!" nor is she saying that "Cid Meier is a sexist because he is involved in the video games industry!"

She is pointing out that many of the standard sexist themes and narratives both in terms of story structure and character structure exist and are pervasive through the medium that we (the Escapist community) loves.

The big bugbear that this project has is that Anita brushes over the entire video game industry and has already jumped to the conclusion that these tropes are sexist.

Can you empirically state that these common narrative themes, many of which are the development of hundreds of years of literary tradition, aren't sexist? A number of those tropes she tries to map out have their roots in feudal European society. Are you going to tell me that by today's standards that Ophelia isn't a rather simplistic, one dimensional character that served as nothing more than a plot device to Hamlet's tragedy? Is the fact that she was defined by the frailties of her sex not sexist in today's context? Because the trope of hysteric women is very present throughout our culture today. In fact, look up the root of the word hysteria...

In terms of the scientific method that is not how you do research, her hypothesis is her conclusion. That is why you have some people saying they aren't really going to learn anything from the series. Another point is that she already makes the forgone conclusion from the harassment that the video game industry is sexist, yet it was an unorganized group of people who did the harassment that have no affiliation towards the video game industry that created the characters that she is calling sexist. There is a huge leap of logic she takes.

Funny thing about the investigation of human nature. It is not yet quantifiable purely through "scientific method". That is why the "social sciences" are an entirely different epistemological field from the "hard sciences." All social theory, including feminist theory falls into the social sciences. You can't empirically prove any theory is social research. It is merely a lens through which to attempt to decipher the world around you.

But the bigger question is that if Anita really thinks that the video game community and the video game industry is sexist? Then which ones? Which organizations and companies that are in clearly transparent and in leadership positions are sexist?

Do you want actual citable references wherein you will be provided in-depth and meaningful analysis? Stop watching 6 minute Youtube videos... Check out actual research. Here are some resources to start:

Beyond Barbie and Mortal Kombat: New Perspectives on Gender and Gaming (book, 2008) [http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1468058]

Maps of Digital Desires: Exploring the Topography of Gender and Play in Online Games (study, 2008) [http://www.nickyee.com/pubs/BBMK%20Yee.pdf]

Looking for Gender: Gender Roles and Behaviors Among Online Gamers, Journal of Communication [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1460-2466.2009.01453.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false]

The true impact of the replication of classic gender themes is that they reinforce the larger societal forces at play. In short, the power of video games as the only true interactive medium is a means to normalize behaviors and beliefs that the larger society is trying to move away from.

So no, just asking a woman about their feelings actually isn't going to prove or disprove anything.

You, sir, are completely wrong. It is always worth asking members of the disenfranchised population as to how they perceive the that disenfranchisement. You have several examples on this thread and across this board of female gamers stating straight up that certain elements of some video games and the larger video game culture (as demonstrated on these threads) creates a barrier for their enjoyment of the medium. I could just as easily dismiss your opinion because you can't "prove or disprove anything" either.

 

[cobra_ky]

I just realized something. Can Nintendo sue Anita for copyright violation for her $50 pledge award?

That is clearly Nintendo's property, and she is clearly making money off of it.

Seems like a pretty clear-cut case of Fair Use to me. Also I'm not sure it would be a good PR move for the billion dollar company to sue an independent blogger who was just the target of a large-scale harassment campaign.

Except that she's selling them. The only way to obtain it, is to give her money. That's clearly not Fair Use.

And that's exactly the problem. Nintendo won't sue her, because it will make them look like the bad guys. The fact that she's been harrassed protects her by the PR it would give by sueing her, even though they're in their full right to do it.

Also, in what twisted world does ZELDA need help?

As Tenmar noted earlier, it's questionable whether or not these items are actually being sold. But setting that aside, commercial products aren't necessarily disqualified from fair use. There's plenty of unauthorized strategy guides and unlicensed T-shirts out there, after all. As for the other factors, Sarkeesian's use of the characters is clearly transformative, and intended as a criticism of the original work. Artwork of a single character is not an substantial amount of content from an entire series of video games, and Sarkeesian's stickers aren't going to impact the sales of Nintendo games overall.

It's not just that it's a bad PR move, I really don't think Nintendo would have a case, at all.

 

[clangunn]

I was wrong about not further responses:

So short post: How can we as a community claim that the roots of our culture are not steeped in misogynistic portrayals of privilege: gender, race, and class. When we have games like this:

Do you think this game was really being marketed to "adults"? Do you think it was being marketed to women? Or native americans? That is an overt example...

Here is another overt example - Aris Bakhtanians' recent public foot-in-mouth-then-shoved-up-his-ass moment [http://www.the-isb.com/?p=6772].

That being said, the fact that we are now (generally) addressing and lambasting these types of extreme examples demonstrates the ongoing growth of our community. However, this growth requires people to continuously raise uncomfortable issues. This is what the "controversy" around Tropes Vs. Women has done.

 

[LHZA]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

I'm not coming down on heels in an office setting, for a night out, etc. Ask any female soldier if she wears heels in the heat of battle or would want to and I can't imagine any would say yes because of the whole lack of mobility therefore incresed likelihood of death thing. I could easily believe Ashley Williams likes to wear heels in certain circumstances, but why the hell is she wearing them in the middle of a battle? There's no point to it other than to make the character more sexually appealing and in that particular context it's out of place and therefore gratuitous. They're nto as bad as say Miranda Lawson's, but still.

If I may say and yes I am repeating this. Why do video games have to be chained to reality? Yeah we know women aren't going to be wearing high heels in actual combat situations. But what does that reality have to affect the game design choices made in a video game?

I mean I get it if say developers are marketing their game as "realistic" and then at random throw in the option of characters being shown wearing high heels. That is when you can criticize the game because it contradicts the selling point of the game.

But in a game like Gravity Rush and the character Kat? She controls gravity, considering she can make herself lighter in weight to prevent those hard landings I don't see how her wearing high heels becomes some sort of problem. And even if I take the logic out, a game where a character controls gravity is already clearly in the fantasy setting so there shouldn't be any criticism on the character because she wears high heels.

I've heard that argument for Gravity Rush from that detructoid article. Not familiar with that game so can't really comment, but if that's an accurate description of the game, than sure, okay, it's cool. Ashley has no such power to manipulate gravity. Heels on her just feel a little out of place on a battlefield because why? There doesn't feel to be a point to them other than to make her more sexually appealing, which in many other contexts would be fine, but why when she's fighting? Why when she's in a situation which is supposed to show off what a capable and highly skilled soldier she is must she still be sexualized like that, in such a way that would seriously hamper her ability to do her job. For me, and for many others because it's a common complaint, it ruins our suspension of disbelief just a little because it feel gratutious. Nothing wrong with a character being sexy, but does she always have to display her sexuality even in situations where it's vastly out of place?

And no, games don't have to be super realistic, but they still have to make sense even if it's involving their own made up set of rules. Gravity Rush sounds like it has come up with a way to justify having the character in heels and engaging in combat. Mass effect 2 and 3 never mentioned any technology that allowed for women to run/jump effectively in heels.

 

[Frankster]

Beyond Barbie and Mortal Kombat: New Perspectives on Gender and Gaming (book, 2008) [http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1468058]

Maps of Digital Desires: Exploring the Topography of Gender and Play in Online Games (study, 2008) [http://www.nickyee.com/pubs/BBMK%20Yee.pdf]

Looking for Gender: Gender Roles and Behaviors Among Online Gamers, Journal of Communication [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1460-2466.2009.01453.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false]
.

Cheers for the references and know you didn't post them in vain

 

[clangunn]

snip

Questions

1. Have you actually read the links you just provided as evidence?

2. Did the studies that I can't access being the first and the third actually state which companies and video game communities that intentionally use what Anita defines as "sexist" tropes are somehow sexist?

Cause I didn't see any sort of proof in the second link stated that somehow those groups were somehow sexist. But only that in 2008 when you look closer at the participation of women in relation to the MMO were not as active in playing compared to that of men. Although an interesting study to read as noted that while there is certainly the social aspect the content of the MMO does not hold the same appeal to women compared to men.

Strangely enough - of the three links I provided the 2nd is the only one that is readable in it's entirety. The first is a summary of a book. The second is a chapter from that same book. The third is an abstract about an academic article which provides an overview, context, and general findings of the study.

So, yes, I did read them to the extent possible. Though I will admit that I only skimmed through the actual chapter by Yee. Was it revelant? Yes - because it outlines the study of how game designers and players tend to believe there is some deep-rooted differentiation between the underlying desires male and female players have to play WoW or other socially engrossing MMOs.

Based on the survey the researcher(s) found that there weren't.

However, there are lovely little quotes from players such as the following:

"There are things that happen in-­game that make me embarrassed, as a woman and as a person who tries to be socially responsible, to be playing. For example, male players will talk about getting ?raped? without really thinking about it, things that happen will be referred to as ?gay,? which is offensive, people do crude things to player corpses in PvP [Player vs. Player settings], etc. (World of Warcraft, female, 29)"

or

When I played EQ, I was so sick and tired of being treated like a moron
or hit on 24?7 that I made a male character. The way people treat female chars and males in EQ was drastic, I had immediate respect. When on a female char, men think you don?t know how to play, cant be hardcore, and try to give you things to hit on you. Its annoying to say the least. (World of Warcraft, female, 35)

Which leads the researcher to posit that in WoW at least:

many female players have learned that it is danger­ous to reveal your real-­life gender in MMOs because they will be branded as incompetent and constantly propositioned; In other words, they must either accept the male-­subject position silently, or risk constant discrimination and harassment if they reveal that they are female.

This leads to believe you either did not actually read the piece you claimed to or your reading skills are rather limited.

3. How exactly are women disenfranchised? They aren't some minority, nor is there a legal standing that prevents any woman to become a computer programmer, artist, analyst, or even a lawyer and pursue a career in the video game industry. The barrier to work in the video game industry is the same for women as it is the same for men. It takes having a healthy work portfolio, a bit of experience, and a bit of luck having the right connections to network yourself as a potential valuable member to the team.

But what is stopping developers both men and women from making the content that women would like to have in video games? I don't think there is anything aside from if you can convert that want into an actual game mechanic.

disenfranchisedpast participle, past tense of dis·en·fran·chise (Verb)
Verb:
Deprive (someone) of the right to vote.
Deprived of power; marginalized.

Disenfranchisement can occur formally or informally. The fact that female players do not feel comfortable playing in a method that represents themselves through their avatar is a form of marginalization. It's funny we use the term avatar so loosely in gaming, because its roots are the literal manifestation of an entity into another world. An avatar isn't merely a means to which to interact with that world - it is the very embodiment of that person in that world.

The fact that female players feel uncomfortable trying to get other players to stop using terms like "rape" in a casual, pejorative sense in the context of beating and/or victimizing another player is depriving them of social power.

As for the culture, what is stopping men and women from creating new communities if they feel like some clan or guild is some barrier. Hell I've moved from guild to guild during my time playing World of Warcraft(Vanilla) and one of our guild leaders was a woman and she was our main tank. In other words, if she wasn't there, there was no raid. It's not like the internet has limited capacity to make new sites and meet new people and create new cultures.

What's particularly sad about the fact that you are posting this perspective on the Escapist Forums is that a there were probably a number of female community members who joined specifically because it is (generally) a site for thoughtful discourse on video games and video game culture. The sheer vitriol that some have expressed in response to Tropes Vs. Women may well have ruined that sense of community for some of them. In fact, the fact that you claim it is never worth taking the time to ask them how they feel may have furthered that.

I keep repeating over and over that you have female gamer's posting about their personal experiences as the recipients of these societal forces and yet you retort back with how all women wear high-heels because it makes them taller and feel good.

Stay classy

 

[Orinon]

The worst thing about this is that I'm not at all surprised.

Yeah the sad part is some people might not even care.

That's it, I am making it my personal mission to wipe out the entire fucking Hominid family.

Would you minnd If I assisted? or at least suggest only remove the dumb ones
I try not to post when I'm angry one Time I believe I did during the controversy of bullet storm and I realized I was being an ass. I don't know about sexism because as I think Movie Bobn said things might not look biased but they can be.

 

[LHZA]

I've heard that argument for Gravity Rush from that detructoid article. Not familiar with that game so can't really comment, but if that's an accurate description of the game, than sure, okay, it's cool. Ashley has no such power to manipulate gravity. Heels on her just feel a little out of place on a battlefield because why? There doesn't feel to be a point to them other than to make her more sexually appealing, which in many other contexts would be fine, but why when she's fighting? Why when she's in a situation which is supposed to show off what a capable and highly skilled soldier she is must she still be sexualized like that, in such a way that would seriously hamper her ability to do her job. For me, and for many others because it's a common complaint, it ruins our suspension of disbelief just a little because it feel gratutious. Nothing wrong with a character being sexy, but does she always have to display her sexuality even in situations where it's vastly out of place?

And no, games don't have to be super realistic, but they still have to make sense even if it's involving their own made up set of rules. Gravity Rush sounds like it has come up with a way to justify having the character in heels and engaging in combat. Mass effect 2 and 3 never mentioned any technology that allowed for women to run/jump effectively in heels.

Question: Why are we applying reality to a Sci-fi game? Note: I did not play much of the Mass Effect series. I played the starting area of Mass Effect 1 and hated it, clunky UI to use abilities and shooting just never made sense to me.

A game where you have alien lifeforms, the ability to have sexual relations that disregard all anatomy, and the like?

I just find it odd that somehow reality must be applied to everything now.

EDIT: I mean imagine if reality was applied to "the scream".

As I've said, I don't expect everything to be uber realistic, but games do have to work within the rules they make for themselves. In short everything in a game still has to have a certain amount of plausibility, however slight. The example you gave about Gravity Rush, that game seems to have a plausible explaination for how the main character (is she? as I said, don't know the game) performs acrobatic acts while dressed in heels, but they do not do so in Mass Effect 3 (or 2 for that matter). Their is nothing that dissaudes us from assuming running in heels isn't as cumbersome as it is in real life (I nearly broke my foot just walking in those things). I personally would also prefer that at least during battle scenes, where a character like Ashely has come prepared to fight, she not be in heels. It is a small, but in my mind effective way of not over sexualizing a character (not that a little sex isn't a good thing, but time and place people). Fighting in heels is not plausable.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Of course, the great irony here is that the vicious response is not only giving Sarkeesian's cause way more publicity than it would have otherwise gotten, but does more to illustrate the problem of misogyny in nerd/gamer culture way more than a video series ever could.

Because seriously, making a videogame about beating a woman in the face for daring to express the point of view that a male-dominated industry doesn't always treat women and female characters like it should, is kind of just making her point for her.

Said it better than I could.

Seriously, why the hell are people so pissed about her making a video series showing that women aren't portrayed in the best light in games?

The dumb thing is that they don't even have to watch it. It's not like she's using the extra $154000 to force every person on the internet to watch her video.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I could care less either way, but why censor the flash creator? Shes thrusted herself into the public eye so shes fair game to whatever people want to do or say or create about her.

It hasn't been "censored", it's just been voted to be a shit game, and due to NG's rules, it get's removed.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I could care less either way, but why censor the flash creator? Shes thrusted herself into the public eye so shes fair game to whatever people want to do or say or create about her.

It hasn't been "censored", it's just been voted to be a shit game, and due to NG's rules, it get's removed.

As said before, NG has far worse games, both in quality & content, this game was blammed because of the subject matter.

Even then, NG's rules for submission covers this sort of thing (i.e. Hateful submissions), so we can't single it out there either.

 

[BNguyen]

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

About the only thing I would have to agree on with Lara Croft is that she is adventurous and independent, but to me, in every game I've seen her in, she kind of acts like a prick. I'd have to go with Yahtzee's opinion of how she acts in games towards other archeologists. Every treasure she seems to go after she acts like she's entitled to have it just because one of her relatives found it and died trying to get it back home. So in that case, I cannot recommend her as a good example of good women. Though that is to say there aren't many games I've played that has a good woman character.

 

[LHZA]

they do not do so in Mass Effect 3 (or 2 for that matter). Their is nothing that dissaudes us from assuming running in heels isn't as cumbersome as it is in real life (I nearly broke my foot just walking in those things). I personally would also prefer that at least during battle scenes, where a character like Ashely has come prepared to fight, she not be in heels. It is a small, but in my mind effective way of not over sexualizing a character (not that a little sex isn't a good thing, but time and place people). Fighting in heels is not plausable.

It's Mass Effect. The answer is "Mass Effect Field". Her high heels are generating a mass effect field that assists with her balance so she's not actually hampered at all.

Cool. Put that down as a sci fi technology I wish existed FOR REAL! Like jet packs, laser guns and talking monkey best friends.

 

[LHZA]

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

About the only thing I would have to agree on with Lara Croft is that she is adventurous and independent, but to me, in every game I've seen her in, she kind of acts like a prick. I'd have to go with Yahtzee's opinion of how she acts in games towards other archeologists. Every treasure she seems to go after she acts like she's entitled to have it just because one of her relatives found it and died trying to get it back home. So in that case, I cannot recommend her as a good example of good women. Though that is to say there aren't many games I've played that has a good woman character.

Kay. I always thought she was doing no worse than Indiana Jones. In real life she would be a horrible archeologists, and you're right, a horrible person but very few people want to play a game in which you spend hours in the dirt gently scrubbing a vase with a tooth brush.

 

[BNguyen]

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

About the only thing I would have to agree on with Lara Croft is that she is adventurous and independent, but to me, in every game I've seen her in, she kind of acts like a prick. I'd have to go with Yahtzee's opinion of how she acts in games towards other archeologists. Every treasure she seems to go after she acts like she's entitled to have it just because one of her relatives found it and died trying to get it back home. So in that case, I cannot recommend her as a good example of good women. Though that is to say there aren't many games I've played that has a good woman character.

Kay. I always thought she was doing no worse than Indiana Jones. In real life she would be a horrible archeologists, and you're right, a horrible person but very few people want to play a game in which you spend hours in the dirt gently scrubbing a vase with a tooth brush.

I'm not saying that the games have to be boring but to me, there has to be some reason for her to act like she does, and to date, I've seen no reason for her to act like a prick. Indiana Jones at least (from a point of view of having not seen the movies but reviews) was dragged into his situations by groups who saw him as valuable and talented at his work, Lara has no reasons as far as I've seen to act in a similar manner. She's basically Bruce Wayne minus parents being murdered. Maybe if it had been the opposing groups having gone against her after she was already there or some family member, then I could get behind her character (no pun intended).
To me, the same application goes with the new game, if the intended rape scene goes to develop her character and give her reason to act like she does then it makes her a much better character.

 

[Patathatapon]

Can't wait for the news line: "This game was financed by Sarkeesian with the money , she gained from kick-starter campaign. It appears that she did so in order to give herself a more solid position in the world of gaming".
What? You don't believe even in possibility of such thing? Here is a little secret I'll share with you: Humans are bastards and will do anything to achieve their goal.

Well look's like I was beaten to the punch. Couldn't have said it better.