Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[DioWallachia]

SNIP

Just for full disclosure, did you watched his next 2 videos about it?

 

[rbstewart7263]

You know what's funny? If it was a guy's face on the flash game getting beat on until inflammation occurs, no one would say a word. Heck, I'm sure there would be a good number of females who would find it funny.

Equality? Yeah right.

that does make this any less digusting

like I said before "this isnt equality! shes being sexist against men! so lets beat the ***** up! that'll show'em"

show'em your scum mabye

Honestly, I don't care that people have done this with her. It's been done before with men, and no one has said a single thing outside "Well, he's not THAT big of a douche..." but when it's a woman, everyone is up in arms and ready to take out the chivalry stick.

And do not take this as condescending:

Let me clue you in on something. You know what actually IS holding back equal treatment? Reactions like this. As long as there is special treatment/awareness detail/defending women to a chivalrous length, you cannot have equality. Honestly, if women want equality, they are going to have to look at this and shrug and say "Eh, they make beat up flash games about a lot of things. This is no different."

This is not being overly chivalrous, or somehow saying that women are weak and need to be protected. This is about recognizing that there has been for centuries (if not longer), a history of keeping women "in their place" via violence and the threat of violence. Calling this out for perpetuating that culture of silence-via-violence is a good thing.

It'd be pretty fucked up if it were, say, a "beat up a black man" or "beat up a Jew" game, too, because again, there is a history there of violence against marginalized and disenfranchised groups. Refer to my earlier point [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.381107.15048153] about how power factors into this.

Ok for the record Im only saying this for clarification only I dont support the "beat up the black/ jew thing" But your point seems to be that there has been a historical bias in marginalizing them/using them as a resource. this is true the slave trade was one of the worst things that ever happened.

however africans particularly nubians had slaves as well in the 25th century.

Ancient Egypt conquered Nubian territory in various eras, and incorporated parts of the area into its provinces. The Nubians in turn were to conquer Egypt under its 25th Dynasty.

There was slavery under nubian rule though it is known that it was not a fixture enough for it to be well recorded.

Later there culture would be combined with that of egyptian(Nubian pharoahs for example) and the trend would increase as time went on.

Egyptians would also have nubian slaves and this would go back and forth it would seem. Its hard to know of a decisive victor since the cultures would merge to become indistinguishable to one another.

So this is contrary to the notion that africa has ALWAYS been the victim and indeed were the agressors.

So in my view the english catch all the flack as though it were only white people to use slaves. The english and french were simply the LATEST in a long history of power struggles in the world to use it.

This runs contrary to the notion that africans are perpetual victims by others. Indeed sometimes they were on top and sometimes not so.

And to summarize its the same with Jewish culture having its ups and downs too.They too participated in the slave trade though not as much as hitler would later claim.

an you can look all this up a simple google:"nubians had slaves" or "jews owned slaves" to find all of the info here.


again I just wanted to dimantle the common notion that "teh white man is the only bad man ever" which is prevalent today.

 

[DioWallachia]

This is fucking stupid.

Ignore the misogyny, I know it's hard, but ignore it.
Ignore Jim Sterling and Tim Schafer for a moment.
Ignore 4chan.
The most ludicrous thing about this whole fucking internet drama is that people have paid money for someone to make a 'talking head' vlog about videogames. Something that umpteen people on Youtube do for free on a regular basis.
People have paid $160,000 for someone to make a vlog about videogames.

But wait, there's more.
People, and by people I mean 90% Male backers, have paid $160,000 for someone to make a vlog about videogames where the vlogger has already decided upon the outcome of her investigation.
She only added in the, and I feel totally justified in saying this, the token 'Positive Portrayals of Women in Videogames' episode after she made over three times the amount that she asked for.
She will do literally nothing with $160,000.
She will squander this brilliant opportunity to highlight a genuine problem in videogames.

Do you want to know why?

Watch her other videos.
Read her fucking thesis.
That kind of shit isn't 'analysis', nor is it even feminism. It is simply generic outrage based around the word 'woman' without any care for, oh, I dunno, the texts.

This actually sounds like a good idea. The person putting this idea in motion, however, is going to fuck it up, and yet people gave her actual money so that she can make an ineffectual video series that will contradict itself on an absolute smorgasboard of points. For evidence of the above, simply look at her episode titles. It doesn't take a fucking lawyer to work out the mental u-turns on that long and unnecessary road.

Hell, she used Faith as an example for a positive feminist role model.
Y'know...that character that was only memorable for her incredible design.

Whatever.

Look, what happened here is simple:
Members of 4chan and other sites forgot one rule: "Don't feed the troll."
But they fed the troll, and then bleeding heart white knight motherfuckers thought that 4chan was the troll, so they ended up feeding the even bigger troll.
But the joke here is that they fed the troll money and attention.
And so the cycle continued until the kickstarter ended.

And another thing, while I'm writing words that no-one will read on an article that is a week old with over a thousand comments for people to be irate at, if you think that her previous videos were smart or in any way insightful, then you are wrong. Objectively, empirically wrong.
They are a streamlined introduction to feminism for very stupid people.

I had a nerdgasm by reading LOGIC and FACTS after a long time. Would you have my childrens?

 

[Frankster]

snip of truth

Best summary of situation i've seen so far, plz find your cookie enclosed in the mail along with coupon for free internetz.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

You know what's funny? If it was a guy's face on the flash game getting beat on until inflammation occurs, no one would say a word. Heck, I'm sure there would be a good number of females who would find it funny.

Equality? Yeah right.

that does make this any less digusting

like I said before "this isnt equality! shes being sexist against men! so lets beat the ***** up! that'll show'em"

show'em your scum mabye

Honestly, I don't care that people have done this with her. It's been done before with men, and no one has said a single thing outside "Well, he's not THAT big of a douche..." but when it's a woman, everyone is up in arms and ready to take out the chivalry stick.

And do not take this as condescending:

Let me clue you in on something. You know what actually IS holding back equal treatment? Reactions like this. As long as there is special treatment/awareness detail/defending women to a chivalrous length, you cannot have equality. Honestly, if women want equality, they are going to have to look at this and shrug and say "Eh, they make beat up flash games about a lot of things. This is no different."

This is not being overly chivalrous, or somehow saying that women are weak and need to be protected. This is about recognizing that there has been for centuries (if not longer), a history of keeping women "in their place" via violence and the threat of violence. Calling this out for perpetuating that culture of silence-via-violence is a good thing.

It'd be pretty fucked up if it were, say, a "beat up a black man" or "beat up a Jew" game, too, because again, there is a history there of violence against marginalized and disenfranchised groups. Refer to my earlier point [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.381107.15048153] about how power factors into this.

Ok for the record Im only saying this for clarification only I dont support the "beat up the black/ jew thing" But your point seems to be that there has been a historical bias in marginalizing them/using them as a resource. this is true the slave trade was one of the worst things that ever happened.

however africans particularly nubians had slaves as well in the 25th century.

Ancient Egypt conquered Nubian territory in various eras, and incorporated parts of the area into its provinces. The Nubians in turn were to conquer Egypt under its 25th Dynasty.

There was slavery under nubian rule though it is known that it was not a fixture enough for it to be well recorded.

Later there culture would be combined with that of egyptian(Nubian pharoahs for example) and the trend would increase as time went on.

Egyptians would also have nubian slaves and this would go back and forth it would seem. Its hard to know of a decisive victor since the cultures would merge to become indistinguishable to one another.

So this is contrary to the notion that africa has ALWAYS been the victim and indeed were the agressors.

So in my view the english catch all the flack as though it were only white people to use slaves. The english and french were simply the LATEST in a long history of power struggles in the world to use it.

This runs contrary to the notion that africans are perpetual victims by others. Indeed sometimes they were on top and sometimes not so.

And to summarize its the same with Jewish culture having its ups and downs too.They too participated in the slave trade though not as much as hitler would later claim.

an you can look all this up a simple google:"nubians had slaves" or "jews owned slaves" to find all of the info here.


again I just wanted to dimantle the common notion that "teh white man is the only bad man ever" which is prevalent today.

...modern history, dude. Yes, african empires used slaves. Pretty much EVERYONE in antiquity used slaves. But that has nothing to do with a history of racism and oppression in, specifically, America.

I mean by your logic, we should still be angry at the Greeks or Mongolians for conquering huge swaths of the world.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

If you have watched her videos you should already know this.

I have watched her videos. I still do not see what you are talking about. Can you link me to some specific videos where you think she is anti-sex/sex-negative? Because of the ones I've seen, it's just been her against exploitation thereof. As the one making the claim that I find doubtful, the burden of proof is on you, friend.

I have had it up to my ears with the male gaze bull shit. Because every other time i hear it it means that the girl ONLY exists for sexual purposes, she has no purpose to plot, she has no use otherwise, & its always a negative thing. Reality is, the woman that founded the theory didn't think it to be a bad thing. Enough of that though, so that the writer writes in a strong female character, means fuck all. I dont believe that. A writer is trying to make an interesting character, & sex should not be excluded from their personality if you can make it fit. Just because the writer was male doesn't remove the fact that the character is in charge of their sexuality, or make sexuality a bad thing. But that he wrote her where she uses her sexuality makes him wrong & the character invalid?

I've had it up to my ears with the male gaze bullshit too, but I think we mean it in slightly different ways

And no, sorry, you seem to seriously misunderstand what the male gaze is. There's an excellent Gamasutra article on the subject which I recommend reading. It does not mean that a female character is completely irrelevant to the plot, it does not mean that she is necessarily a weak character, etc - it just implies that she is portrayed (sexually) in certain ways that male characters wouldn't, all for the visual/sexual titillation of a male reader. This does not instantly make her a terrible or weak character, but it does weaken her character in that it objectifies her in ways that it does not treat her male counterparts.

Male authors, directors, and game designers are perfectly capable of creating works without the male gaze (though it's difficult; many of them don't realize they're doing it). It is not something one automatically does when creating fiction as male.

This does not mean that we shouldn't call them out on it. Is one instance of an objectified female character the end of the world? No. But when you take it all together, it's problematic.

Because that's all Sarkeesian does. Hell, she criticized bastions character Zia, as 'the female' (a misrepresentation of the trope 'the chick'), seeming like she never played the game. Just watch her videos, i cant keep watching them to explain them.

I haven't played Bastion, sorry. You'll have to explain to me this one.

As for her Christmas arguments? If she had done research then 'Baby its cold outside' would look a lot less bad given that roofies weren't a substance as we know it until 30 years after the song was released. The other criticisms of it were interpreting it as the male being aggressive, rather than her being conflicted with wanting to stay & what others might think. But by this point im putting up resistance just for the hell.

Uh, the criticism of "Baby It's Cold Outside" Has. Absolutely nothing to do with roofies. It has everything to do with that the man is making sexual advances that are being rebuffed by the woman. Yes, it's portrayed as sweet/romantic/cute, but... it does undermine the essence of No Means No.

And do not dare defend tumblr/youtube straw-feminists. These bitches are insane, And no they don't mean some spaces; they mean everything. Thats the group we are talking about. Thats the group that should never be called feminist. They dont want equality, if it were biologically possible for humanity to survive without the male half they would jump at the chance.

I'm just saying, I don't think insane MRAs are any better. Both genders have their militants.

Edit: Just in case you misunderstand, anti-sex feminism is basically just feminism with a negative outlook on sex & sexuality. Should be called 'sex-negative' or some other variation, but nothing we can do about that.[/quote

I got what you were getting at. I just don't see it in her videos.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I could care less either way, but why censor the flash creator? Shes thrusted herself into the public eye so shes fair game to whatever people want to do or say or create about her.

It hasn't been "censored", it's just been voted to be a shit game, and due to NG's rules, it get's removed.

As said before, NG has far worse games, both in quality & content, this game was blammed because of the subject matter.

Even then, NG's rules for submission covers this sort of thing (i.e. Hateful submissions), so we can't single it out there either.

And yet, right now on Newgrounds, you can play a game called "Election Madness" where you "Beat your political opponent to pieces by using kicks, punches, combos, TV's, pianos, and more! Choose between Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain in this hilarious knockout!"

From their FAQ:

Q: What can I do if I find an inappropriate movie in any of the Portals?

A: If a movie is racist, excessively pornographic, personally threatening, or generally much more offensive than regular Newgrounds fare, there is a good chance we don't want it here. If a user deems a movie inappropriate for the Portal and the entry is still under judgment, he/she can blow the whistle using the appropriate whistle option. If the entry has passed judgment users should contact us, and be sure to include the submission's URL and a brief description about why they think it is a problem. We will then look into the submission and decide if the movie/game stays or goes.

Personally threatening, which I think we can agree that the submission in question is.

Does it actually threaten her? Does it say the designer is going to beat her up or does it encourage people to beat her up Irl? Because if not then it seems like it's just venting.

Dude, this guy made a flash game about beating her up. Just think about that for a moment. What do you think this asshole would like to do to her?

So you think everyone who enjoys GTA really wants to murder people?

Every election season in the U.S. you see dart boards with one of the presidential candidates in the center, they're gag items and they aren't marketed to fundies or anything.

Hell newgrounds has tons of flash games where you get to kill celebrities.

EDIT: Come to think of it, whether he actually wants to beat her up or not is irrelevant. It's only a threat when he says he's going to do it.

And all of this is irrelevant, NG has decided that it's against their submission rules, so it's against their submission rules. Because weirdly enough, they're NG's rules.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Nay by my logic we shouldn't be angry at anyone.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

snip

Burden of proof is not something to be brought up here, as we both have seen the subject matter. I did not think i needed to zero in on what was wrong. But thank you, i am now sick to my bloody fucking stomach havign seen her do that snotty eye roll again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpzEjjn3w4U her Kanye west video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgEjy_JWZys The actual music video, just for comparison. Point of the video was a commentary on the music industry, and one trying to be harsh about the matter. Also, her definition of misogyny lines her up with a sex negative view. I suggest you brush up on the matter, because feminism as a whole is undergoing an internal struggle, the two sides being sex-positive & sex-negative. Sex positive is about sex liberation & expression, sex-negative is against that on all levels, citing it as exploitation, objectification, & generally views it as a woman not knowing whats good for her. In short, its sexual repression on all fronts. Sarkeesian is rooted firmly on the side of the anti-sex group. Her position is that if a female character is showing skin, she is bad. Sexuality does not lessen a character, being only about sex would. That would be objectification, not simply being sexual. Frankly, a character being sexual is not a bad thing. A character being sexual in a way the other gender would not, is not a bad thing. But Sarkeesians opinion is that it is. If a girl displays cleavage she is a negative character. Dont believe it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgLw8tChxX4

her bayonetta criticisms. And her criticisms in relation to Bastion requrie you to go to TVtroeps, and check out the trope called 'the chick'. In short, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChick read the bloody article. For a better criticism of her analysis, i give you another link.
http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml

And yes, the roofy bit does matter, because it takes a leg away from the date-rape theory. Leaving it only with the idea that the girl does not want to be there. The songs context(something ignored wholly by most criticisms) involve the young man & young woman wanting to have sex, but it being socially unacceptable for them to do so, & the time when its unacceptable(socially0 for them to be alone, is fast approaching. But the lyrics only lead on for sexual assault/date rape if song incorrectly. The duet is supposed to be light hearted & show no underlying tones of fear, despair, or dread. Its not about date-rape, its about pushing aside social norms & being together. Its not overpowering her, its him trying to convince her to drop the excuses and forget what everyone might think. They both want to be together, but shes worried about her reputation, as a girl in the 40s. Its a love song that lost the context of its time period, being the 40s. I could go on.

I will try to find someone else to better explain why her videos view sex negatively if you still dont get it. But it may take some time. Just re-watch some of her videos, read up on the feminist sex wars(an internal struggle not the conservative fear) to better understand why her talking points are from a negative view on sex.

I'd seen the Bayonetta video before. And sorry, but I don't see any of this supposed sex-negativitism in the Kanye video. She's criticizing a male artist for his portrayal of women as sex objects - literally objects, not even alive - as well as problematic portrayals along racial lines. The women in the video have no agency of their own, it's Kanye's show.

There is no sex-negativity in this or the Bayonetta video. She is criticizing a male establishment's exploitation of female sexuality, not female sexuality in itself.

 

[BNguyen]

You know what's funny? If it was a guy's face on the flash game getting beat on until inflammation occurs, no one would say a word. Heck, I'm sure there would be a good number of females who would find it funny.

Equality? Yeah right.

that does make this any less digusting

like I said before "this isnt equality! shes being sexist against men! so lets beat the ***** up! that'll show'em"

show'em your scum mabye

Honestly, I don't care that people have done this with her. It's been done before with men, and no one has said a single thing outside "Well, he's not THAT big of a douche..." but when it's a woman, everyone is up in arms and ready to take out the chivalry stick.

And do not take this as condescending:

Let me clue you in on something. You know what actually IS holding back equal treatment? Reactions like this. As long as there is special treatment/awareness detail/defending women to a chivalrous length, you cannot have equality. Honestly, if women want equality, they are going to have to look at this and shrug and say "Eh, they make beat up flash games about a lot of things. This is no different."

This is not being overly chivalrous, or somehow saying that women are weak and need to be protected. This is about recognizing that there has been for centuries (if not longer), a history of keeping women "in their place" via violence and the threat of violence. Calling this out for perpetuating that culture of silence-via-violence is a good thing.

It'd be pretty fucked up if it were, say, a "beat up a black man" or "beat up a Jew" game, too, because again, there is a history there of violence against marginalized and disenfranchised groups. Refer to my earlier point [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.381107.15048153] about how power factors into this.

Ok for the record Im only saying this for clarification only I dont support the "beat up the black/ jew thing" But your point seems to be that there has been a historical bias in marginalizing them/using them as a resource. this is true the slave trade was one of the worst things that ever happened.

however africans particularly nubians had slaves as well in the 25th century.

Ancient Egypt conquered Nubian territory in various eras, and incorporated parts of the area into its provinces. The Nubians in turn were to conquer Egypt under its 25th Dynasty.

There was slavery under nubian rule though it is known that it was not a fixture enough for it to be well recorded.

Later there culture would be combined with that of egyptian(Nubian pharoahs for example) and the trend would increase as time went on.

Egyptians would also have nubian slaves and this would go back and forth it would seem. Its hard to know of a decisive victor since the cultures would merge to become indistinguishable to one another.

So this is contrary to the notion that africa has ALWAYS been the victim and indeed were the agressors.

So in my view the english catch all the flack as though it were only white people to use slaves. The english and french were simply the LATEST in a long history of power struggles in the world to use it.

This runs contrary to the notion that africans are perpetual victims by others. Indeed sometimes they were on top and sometimes not so.

And to summarize its the same with Jewish culture having its ups and downs too.They too participated in the slave trade though not as much as hitler would later claim.

an you can look all this up a simple google:"nubians had slaves" or "jews owned slaves" to find all of the info here.


again I just wanted to dimantle the common notion that "teh white man is the only bad man ever" which is prevalent today.

...modern history, dude. Yes, african empires used slaves. Pretty much EVERYONE in antiquity used slaves. But that has nothing to do with a history of racism and oppression in, specifically, America.

I mean by your logic, we should still be angry at the Greeks or Mongolians for conquering huge swaths of the world.

Why not be mad at the Europeans who bought, sold, and escalated the salve trade to a global market? At least people from America at the time didn't participate in colonizing areas and exploiting the people. Europeans were by far bigger racists than Americans were.
And by your logic, you're saying we should be mad at modern United States citizens for being a part of a country that participated in slave and racially demeaning actions.
Did you even know that most slaves from Africa did not come to the U.S. but rather to plantations owned and run by Europeans in Central and South America?

 

[rbstewart7263]

I'm just gonna leave this here.

Good read actually. I an everyone here probably does this.

 

[rbstewart7263]

It'd be pretty fucked up if it were, say, a "beat up a black man" or "beat up a Jew" game, too, because again, there is a history there of violence against marginalized and disenfranchised groups. Refer to my earlier point [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.381107.15048153] about how power factors into this.

Ok for the record Im only saying this for clarification only I dont support the "beat up the black/ jew thing" But your point seems to be that there has been a historical bias in marginalizing them/using them as a resource. this is true the slave trade was one of the worst things that ever happened.

however africans particularly nubians had slaves as well in the 25th century.

Ancient Egypt conquered Nubian territory in various eras, and incorporated parts of the area into its provinces. The Nubians in turn were to conquer Egypt under its 25th Dynasty.

There was slavery under nubian rule though it is known that it was not a fixture enough for it to be well recorded.

Later there culture would be combined with that of egyptian(Nubian pharoahs for example) and the trend would increase as time went on.

Egyptians would also have nubian slaves and this would go back and forth it would seem. Its hard to know of a decisive victor since the cultures would merge to become indistinguishable to one another.

So this is contrary to the notion that africa has ALWAYS been the victim and indeed were the agressors.

So in my view the english catch all the flack as though it were only white people to use slaves. The english and french were simply the LATEST in a long history of power struggles in the world to use it.

This runs contrary to the notion that africans are perpetual victims by others. Indeed sometimes they were on top and sometimes not so.

And to summarize its the same with Jewish culture having its ups and downs too.They too participated in the slave trade though not as much as hitler would later claim.

an you can look all this up a simple google:"nubians had slaves" or "jews owned slaves" to find all of the info here.


again I just wanted to dimantle the common notion that "teh white man is the only bad man ever" which is prevalent today.

...modern history, dude. Yes, african empires used slaves. Pretty much EVERYONE in antiquity used slaves. But that has nothing to do with a history of racism and oppression in, specifically, America.

I mean by your logic, we should still be angry at the Greeks or Mongolians for conquering huge swaths of the world.

Why not be mad at the Europeans who bought, sold, and escalated the salve trade to a global market? At least people from America at the time didn't participate in colonizing areas and exploiting the people. Europeans were by far bigger racists than Americans were.
And by your logic, you're saying we should be mad at modern United States citizens for being a part of a country that participated in slave and racially demeaning actions.
Did you even know that most slaves from Africa did not come to the U.S. but rather to plantations owned and run by Europeans in Central and South America?

Is that aimed at me? No the point is to dismantle the popularly held notion that the white man is the worst and every other culture just wants to live simple family lives while the evil white man wants to fuck it up and enslave you.


The truth is more realistic. That when countries fall to there rivals they become the enslavers when they were the slaves to begin with etc etc. basicly this obviously doesnt ALWAYS happen but you get my point.


No once again my point is that we shouldnt be mad at anyone. The white man in a business tie is the whipping boy of the century and when you look at all of history holistically. Well theres some bad in all of us. A point where our culture or ancestral culture was great. A point where it was shitty and did shitty things to other cultures sometimes wiping that culture out.


We shouldnt pick at the english for slaves cause damn near everyone has kept a slave or been kept as a slave.

We shouldnt be mad at anyone.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Why not be mad at the Europeans who bought, sold, and escalated the salve trade to a global market? At least people from America at the time didn't participate in colonizing areas and exploiting the people. Europeans were by far bigger racists than Americans were.
And by your logic, you're saying we should be mad at modern United States citizens for being a part of a country that participated in slave and racially demeaning actions.
Did you even know that most slaves from Africa did not come to the U.S. but rather to plantations owned and run by Europeans in Central and South America?

Missing the point, dude. History is history; it is the effects of said history that are still felt in the modern day that we need to be concerned about.

Is that aimed at me? No the point is to dismantle the popularly held notion that the white man is the worst and every other culture just wants to live simple family lives while the evil white man wants to fuck it up and enslave you.

The truth is more realistic. That when countries fall to there rivals they become the enslavers when they were the slaves to begin with etc etc. basicly this obviously doesnt ALWAYS happen but you get my point.

No once again my point is that we shouldnt be mad at anyone. The white man in a business tie is the whipping boy of the century and when you look at all of history holistically. Well theres some bad in all of us. A point where our culture or ancestral culture was great. A point where it was shitty and did shitty things to other cultures sometimes wiping that culture out.

We shouldnt pick at the english for slaves cause damn near everyone has kept a slave or been kept as a slave.

We shouldnt be mad at anyone.

Again, you're also missing the point. The point is not "people of color were treated terribly by white settlers and colonists for centuries," though that is, in fact, true. The point has nothing to do with history for history's sake, and everything to do with how things are today.

We are not talking about racial (and gender!) struggle and power imbalances a hundred and fifty years ago, we are talking about those things as they exist today. To do so, it is necessary to understand history. Today, though we have made great strides towards equality, the default image of power in US society (and in fact, most Western society) is that of a white man. Taken as a whole, white people and men possess institutionalized power that people of color and women do not have.

Why is this? Well, because of history. 150 years ago, black people were still held as slaves in half of the country. Then we had Jim Crow, segregation, the KKK, etc. 100 years ago, women couldn't vote. Through the feminist movement and the Civil Rights movement, these conditions have certainly improved; nobody's doubting that. But they are still not equal in society's eyes.

And for hundreds of years - and even today still - violence or the threat of violence has been used to silence "uppity" people of color or women; it was used by those in power to silence those without it. So to that end, a game that invites people to beat up someone who is a member of a group that is still disenfranchised (POCs, women, LGBT people, etc) has unfortunate implications that a game about beating up someone with institutional power does not.

Understanding that is why we need to know history - its effects that linger today. No, you don't need to feel guilty or ashamed because your great great great great great great grandfather was a slave-owning Confederate; obviously that's not your fault. But you DO need to understand how that history still shapes power imbalances today, and to not dismiss it.

Have I explained that better now?

 

[rbstewart7263]

Fair enough. I just get sick of the dismissal that comes from being a straight white male. If I say "limiting the art of others to instill your sense of right an wrong does injustice to us all." My opinion is dismissed as though I've never lived in a rat infested trailer or worked in a furniture factory. If a black trans woman were to say "limiting the art of others to instill your sense of right an wrong does injustice to us all." Then its held up as an absolute truth. That is hypocrisy.I'm just like her but to everyone else I'm Tue black suited CEO and she is the downtrodden. I thought the point of equal rights was that we are all heard equally.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Yeah people assume a lot but it comes down to taste. I got a friend who would love a bad ass ***** like bayonetta. Another who was spouting the same rhetoric an after seeing the game changed her mind. Sarkeesians just more prude minded an I'm gonna stick by cdproject an crystal dynamics. If sarkeesian wants more games likened to her taste she should take that money and get it done.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Fair enough. I just get sick of the dismissal that comes from being a straight white male. If I say "limiting the art of others to instill your sense of right an wrong does injustice to us all." My opinion is dismissed as though I've never lived in a rat infested trailer or worked in a furniture factory. If a black trans woman were to say "limiting the art of others to instill your sense of right an wrong does injustice to us all." Then its held up as an absolute truth. That is hypocrisy.I'm just like her but to everyone else I'm Tue black suited CEO and she is the downtrodden. I thought the point of equal rights was that we are all heard equally.

I'm not sure I understand the quote, can you rephrase it? But honestly, it's true that when it comes to discussing oppression, you - and I, as a heterosexual cisgendered white man - don't have the relevant experience to discuss it as someone who is actively oppressed or marginalized by society. We don't have the experiences that they might, and so in that regard we absolutely should shut up and listen rather than speaking, because we are already assumed to be the default.

It's interesting that you phrase it as "that we are all heard equally." There was a study from... last year? A year before? I don't remember off the top of my head, but it essentially said that in a classroom or other discussion environment, if women spoke equally as much as men - a straight 50/50 split - it was perceived by men as inequal in favor of women. What was actually equality, we perceived as inequality against us. Men tended to say that it was "equal" when the speech was 70/30 in our favor.

It's important to remember that heterosexual cisgender white men are considered the "default." In society, we have institutionalized power. When we speak, people are less likely to see us as representative members of a group and more as individuals, and they're MORE likely to listen to us - people will take feminist lessons more seriously if they come from a guy than a lady, which is kinda fucked up.

We don't have to worry about people taking what we have to say seriously because it's already kind of assumed by society. To that extent, it IS important to advocate for the speech of marginalized groups over the privileged, because we already have that recognition and legitimacy that they lack. And, again, they have experiences on the subject that we simply cannot understand by virtue of never having lived them.

Define exploitation of sexuality & how it differs from sexuality on its own. Also, the sex negativity in the Kanye video stems from her zeroing in on the girls being in lingerie. Also, from the stance of film-making the girls were extras. Extras are background dressing & serve little more purpose beyond living props. This is not restricted to women, & nothing is wrong with it. While they are functioning as objects for the purpose of the video, what makes them sex objects? That they are wearing lingerie? Which leaves her only criticism 'this fetishizes parts of us' on the only standing that the human body is inherently wrong. Because this is not exploitation, the shock value is minimal & the sexual value is null. Another thing is that, while race is used, its not racist. At least not since none of the claims have backed the statement beyond 'white women= dead sex objects & black women= demons'.

Spinning my wheels here because i can't seem to get you top realize sex doesn't equal sexual objectification/exploitation.

Just so you know, Bayonetta was designed by a woman when told to make a modern witch that wields guns.

I realize that quite well, thank you very much. I'm beginning to think that you don't, considering that you're mistaking the criticism of one with the criticism of another.

Ask yourself this: Why is she criticizing Kanye's video instead of criticizing, say, Lady Gaga's videos, wherein she wears plenty of skimpy clothing? A crucial difference here is that of "agency." That is, who decides what the women are to be wearing? In one, it's the women - Lady Gaga wears what Lady Gaga decides she wants to wear. Maybe this IS for the titillation of a male viewer, but it's still the woman's choice to do so, much like it's her choice to do so IRL. In the other, it's the men - the women wear what the men want them to wear to titillate the male viewer. They have no agency.

I'm actually kind of stunned that you don't see the objectification here. Most of the women in this video are portrayed as dead. They're lifeless and immobile, only around for their physical appearance in lingerie. Hell, in one scene Kanye is physically rearranging them! They are literally being portrayed as objects, not people. The message here is that the artists in the video choose to surround themselves with women in lingerie for no reason other than that they look sexy in lingerie. It is ABSOLUTELY exploitation and objectification of the highest order, and that you insist that she's just criticizing "Women in lingerie = bad" just kind of makes me think that you... honestly don't understand what she's getting at.

A woman may have designed Bayonetta, but it was men who decided how to portray her in game. Is the character designer responsible for the lascivious shots panning over her crotch and ass? Probably not.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I can agree to an extent but there are bias's within rights groups that deserve attention.many good points tho

What about the men in gagas vids always half naked. Is wager that is a double standard. Sexism in kanyes video is not present. He does not drive home that he's better than these women . The video was a brash look at the entertainment industry and about vices. For kanye his vices are women. He sees himself as a monster having gone too far an them be ing dead represents what he an by extension fame does to these women that would group around him. He talks about habit.g crossed the line an that he will let god decide this means that hrs a better judge of himself than others an that only god can decide.


There is something positive about bayonettas sexuallity. As a person she's mastered it an is not anywhere close to a victim. All she does she does to entertain herself. This to me is a good message that men an women can learn from I too would be stronger were I more masterful of my own sexuality.

Now I know what's coming next.""but men wrote her that way for men". Indeed but not Inspite of women. Women too can enjoy bayonettas shere awesome if they choose an some do.I'd argue that those against such a thing are repressing there own expression an sexuality. If she were to be submissive there'd be a case but making sexy things for men to enjoy is no different than making sexy things for women. We just need more female service not the prude police coming after us!lol