Forbes thinks Retaking Mass Effect 3 is a good thing.

Lurchibald

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Sarge034 said:
viranimus said:
If there was an actual advertised promise made there might be a case for it, but all anyone is able to cite is what they have interpreted to be incontrovertable promises amounting to a response that boils down to...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfwOqlnCKQs&t=2m29s


People invested too much time and concern over a mediocre sci fi story, spent entirely too much time on bioware forums and holding bioware to what they interpret to be a promise when no such promise was actually made. Ive still yet to see an actual advertisement or official press release before the game was released that said the game would have 17 different endings, and those endings would be reflective of your choices in the game and that they would all conclude the storyline in one cohesive vein. Its a paradox.
Challenge accepted.

>Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

"Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome
."

>Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn't do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets?
But I can't
say any more than that..."

and for the finally...

>Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] "Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?"

Hudson: "Yeah, and I'd say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don't have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we're taking into account so many
decisions that you've made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them."




Challenge completed....

Next challenge?
You forgot http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

Interviewer: I saved the Rachni in the first game, and there was a little tease about them in Mass Effect 2. How big of a repercussion do choices like that have in this game? Will get to play a mission that someone who killed the Rachni wouldn?t get?
Mac Walters: The thing I will say about Mass Effect 3 is that the choices you?ve made previously, and the differences that those choices represent, are much bigger than they?ve been in the past. There are certain missions that are simply not available at all because of something you?ve done in the past. Those are usually on a smaller scale. Is Conrad Verner alive or dead? [The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.

No Mac, The only difference is a paltry 100 Galactic Readiness points... nothing that a single multiplayer match couldn't fix...
 

Sarge034

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Lurchibald said:
You forgot http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

Interviewer: I saved the Rachni in the first game, and there was a little tease about them in Mass Effect 2. How big of a repercussion do choices like that have in this game? Will get to play a mission that someone who killed the Rachni wouldn?t get?
Mac Walters: The thing I will say about Mass Effect 3 is that the choices you?ve made previously, and the differences that those choices represent, are much bigger than they?ve been in the past. There are certain missions that are simply not available at all because of something you?ve done in the past. Those are usually on a smaller scale. Is Conrad Verner alive or dead? [The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.

No Mac, The only difference is a paltry 100 Galactic Readiness points... nothing that a single multiplayer match couldn't fix...
I actually had not seen this particular one before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
 

Smithburg

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I think its really cool that Forbes is talking about this, I always tended to think of them as a more upscale type publication, one that wouldn't bother with this type of thing, but they are taking it seriously and handling it wonderfully
 

Gennadios

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notsosavagemessiah said:
This is all irrelevant. If you don't like bioware's story, too bad. It's theirs, they wrote in such a way to leave it open for DLC while trying to wrap things up in a satisfying way. The truth is, this reaction would've happened no matter how good the ending was because it wasn't "their" ending. It wasn't how they saw it in their head. You that support this, need to get over the idea that somehow mass effect belongs to you. It does not. You are not the writers, you didn't put in the time to program the code. The only thing you did do, was buy and play. You didn't put any real work in, therefore, you are NOT entitled to the ability to change it.
Ah yes, more interpretations and existential angst.

1) They did not leave the story open of DLC. The way things end in ME3 changes the basic setup of the game world that DLC is not possible. Once the game ends you're basically dumped into a copy of the game the way it was right before the final confrontation. Every DLC that follows can only be structured as a pre-final battle prequel.

2) I'm sick and tired of hearing that there's no way to end the series in a way that can satisfy fans. It doesn't take much, just don't strand half your crew on an unidentified planet and have an epilogue that basically implies that spaceflight has not been re-established. Players spent their 3 games fighting for the state of the universe and everything in it. Forcing a fundamental change to that status quo for "art" reasons can be done in the first game of the series, as there's not much attachment yet. Doing it this late in the narrative is classic asshat syndrome. People develop attachments and a good idea of what they're fighting for.

3) Nobody cares who ME belongs to. This is a message that if they want us to buy future DLC they'd damn well give us a reason to care. The ending took away that reason. They're free to keep the ending as they see fit, but who will they have to sell their DLC to? You? Capitalism, Ho!
 

Bvenged

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Tono Makt said:
On one hand, it is absolutely insane, and utterly embarrassing for the gaming community with Forbes magazine is the best source for intelligent analysis of the Mass Effect 3 situation. The gaming community should be able to handle this one, and it's dropped the ball. Heck, it tied its hands behind its back and jumped back behind cover when the ball got dropped.

On the other hand, Forbes magazine is taking the time and effort to look at this issue seriously, and offer intelligent and reasonable advice! It's not just saying "You idiot kids. Shut up.", they're treating the fans as if the fans are the equivalent of any other consumer out there. This is awesome.
Paragraph 2 I agree with, paragraph 1 I don't.

We haven't dropped the ball at all, in fact, we're still holding it firmly in our greasy consumer hands. We're holding it so well that other developers have taken notice and Bioware have been embarrassed and gotten to work on a (hopefully) more conclusive ending. Forbes' involvement is an outsider view on things going on within, adding a new perspective on things and nothing more.

notsosavagemessiah said:
This is all irrelevant. If you don't like bioware's story, too bad. It's theirs, they wrote in such a way to leave it open for DLC while trying to wrap things up in a satisfying way. The truth is, this reaction would've happened no matter how good the ending was because it wasn't "their" ending. It wasn't how they saw it in their head. You that support this, need to get over the idea that somehow mass effect belongs to you. It does not. You are not the writers, you didn't put in the time to program the code. The only thing you did do, was buy and play. You didn't put any real work in, therefore, you are NOT entitled to the ability to change it.
May I refer you to this video, Sir? Maybe then you'll at least start seeing eye-to-eye with all this displeasure; and take some understanding to the situation while you're at it, instead of telling us that the piece of shit ending is supposed to be satisfying.

This guy hits the nail on the head. He suggests we have 16 DIFFERENT endings, where if you play at keep Shepard alive, s/he lives. If you play to save the galaxy but want Shepard to die, it can happen. If you want the reapers to win, cool - it can happen too - this is the ending we should have had as it was the kind of ending we were led to believe we would get.


...and for anyone who fancies a laugh about the ending, Family Guy made a joke about the very same kind of ending back before ME2 was even out.


EDIT: Yay! Post 600! I would've preferred it to be more science-y though, but I'll take what I can get!
 

psijac

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Tono Makt said:
On one hand, it is absolutely insane, and utterly embarrassing for the gaming community with Forbes magazine is the best source for intelligent analysis of the Mass Effect 3 situation. The gaming community should be able to handle this one, and it's dropped the ball. Heck, it tied its hands behind its back and jumped back behind cover when the ball got dropped.

On the other hand, Forbes magazine is taking the time and effort to look at this issue seriously, and offer intelligent and reasonable advice! It's not just saying "You idiot kids. Shut up.", they're treating the fans as if the fans are the equivalent of any other consumer out there. This is awesome.
EA doesn't have the kind of money (or Foresight) to buy out Forbes. Even Yatzhee backed down from the ME3 ending
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Whenever I see this kind of thread and people are throwing shit left and right, one thing that stands out is the constant accusation of 'what did you expect, a happy ending?' and it reminds me of when God shows himself on South Park....


....and he looks like a Bunyip. Then he asks them "What did you expect, my child?" and Randy goes "Well, something, but not that". For most of us, the ending isn't bad because we didn't end in the most cliche manner ever, but because it just didn't seem to fit with everything else and appeared to make our actions through the game largely meaningless.

Shepard dying, basically expected. Earth ravaged, went without saying. The galaxy at large in various states of fucked, yeah that makes sense. Counterbalanced by a reknewed feeling of brotherhood between the races, awesome. The Geth and Quarians making peace to rebuild Rannoch, the Krogan being cured and elevating themselves socially would have been what I expected.

I did not expect a hologram of the game's most emotionally manipulative character to basically say 'pick your preferred flavour of shit'. And even then, an easy way to take some of the sting out of that would have been for the hologram to be of Saren.
 

El Luck

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Strain42 said:
Savagezion said:
Smeggs said:
Tono Makt said:
On the other hand, Forbes magazine is taking the time and effort to look at this issue seriously, and offer intelligent and reasonable advice! It's not just saying "You idiot kids. Shut up.", they're treating the fans as if the fans are the equivalent of any other consumer out there. This is awesome.
Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.
Open your eyes. Look up to the skies and seeeeeeeeeee
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
 

archvile93

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wintercoat said:
The real message is twofold. First, that a developer has to live up to fan expectations, or else its reputation will be tarnished. The second is much more hopeful - the idea that in an age of social media, it might just have a chance to repair the damage."
This. This. Oh so much this! A million times this! This is the best summation of what I've been trying to get across to people, but could never adequately say.
They don't even have to live up to the fans expectations, at least not the super lofty ones. They just have to live up to their own promises. You'd think they know that since it's come up in their games before.
 

viranimus

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Sarge034 said:
Challenge accepted.

>Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

"Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome
."
Red, green, blue. Like it or not your decisions decide if you get red green or blue. Next.

>Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn't do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets?
But I can't
say any more than that..."
Not an official advertisement. Its an interview. So much like every other source cited from an interview it is flawed because it is based on interpretation.. Yes there "are many different endings" But does it say that those endings would be shipped as a part of launch? Does it imply that those endings would be wildly different or just that they would be different? Again... its left up to the interpretation of the reader.

and for the finally...

>Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
I already addressed this elsewhere, However, just pointing out again that its an interview and subject to the readers interpretation. Its not incontrovertible fact and the reason why using interviews is never going to justify the false advertisement claims and shows the sort of "plug your fingers in your ears and scream lalalalalalalala when anyone tells you anything that confronts your position" logic that is behind a campaign that is designed to "retake" something they never possessed in the first place. You simply cant retake it if its was never yours. What this is trying to do is TAKE it, or basically Hijack it.


Challenge failed
And to the other quotation, Yes, fully aware of the preceding paragraph from the interview and it does not diminish or support the argument because it is still left up to the subjective interpretation of the reader.

And Yes, that IS what I am saying. As for the "not" its saying that it would not be like traditional bioware endings. The not references the complexity and variance of endings. Much like the general populous has stated theres basically only "one" ending in a flavor of red, blue or green. With the color context being viewed as an irrelevant distinction.

Anyway, Im done with this again. Still yet to see a solid case be made. Best of luck to everyone. Please remember kids.... at the end of the day.. its still just a game and certainly does not justifying anyone getting this worked up about it.
 

Tono Makt

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CAMDAWG said:
Tono Makt said:
On one hand, it is absolutely insane, and utterly embarrassing for the gaming community with Forbes magazine is the best source for intelligent analysis of the Mass Effect 3 situation. The gaming community should be able to handle this one, and it's dropped the ball. Heck, it tied its hands behind its back and jumped back behind cover when the ball got dropped.

On the other hand, Forbes magazine is taking the time and effort to look at this issue seriously, and offer intelligent and reasonable advice! It's not just saying "You idiot kids. Shut up.", they're treating the fans as if the fans are the equivalent of any other consumer out there. This is awesome.
While I completely agree with most of what you said, I do take issue at labeling forbes the "only intelligent analysis". I don't think it's fair to dismiss every other media outlet as unintelligent because it doesn't ascribe to your views. Which isn't to say that you only think they're good because they agree with you, but simply that labeling thusly is not fair.

That being said, I do think forbes have been fantastic, and respectful of both sides, and most other journalists have indeed been far below the standard that should be upheld. The first that comes to mind is moviebob (although not a game critic, he is a critic on a website primarily occupied with games) and his tweets, and I guess colin moriarty as well.
Not intending to be snarky (unfortunately it's probably going to come across that way anyway), but I didn't say "only intelligent analysis". I said "best source for intelligent analysis."

I will admit that I'm extremely disappointed in the gaming industry journalists and pundits, and their insulting reaction to the outrage, and I am probably dismissing them more than they deserve. Though much of the reaction is partially explained by the tones of the analysis; the gaming industry tone is antagonistic and defensive, where the reaction from Forbes is neutral and without obvious bias. Discussions about the gaming industry reaction to this is more likely to be antagonistic and argumentative.
 

Tono Makt

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Gatx said:
Tono Makt said:
On one hand, it is absolutely insane, and utterly embarrassing for the gaming community with Forbes magazine is the best source for intelligent analysis of the Mass Effect 3 situation. The gaming community should be able to handle this one, and it's dropped the ball. Heck, it tied its hands behind its back and jumped back behind cover when the ball got dropped.

On the other hand, Forbes magazine is taking the time and effort to look at this issue seriously, and offer intelligent and reasonable advice! It's not just saying "You idiot kids. Shut up.", they're treating the fans as if the fans are the equivalent of any other consumer out there. This is awesome.
But then again a lot of the arguments I've seen against the ME3 ending seem to be based around gamers being different from all other consumers in how they interact with the medium, that they're more invested or something because of the interactive nature as opposed to people who watch movies or read books - namely all the people who complain about Moviebob's criticism of the movement by saying that he's treating the gaming audience like a movie audience.
It's more that Bob Chipman is treating a video game like a movie, and he's insulting the ME3 fans who are upset by the ending. The insult is more of a problem then comparing games to movies - there are legitimate arguments to be had in a comparison between games and movies.

Arguments about differences between consumers is inaccurate; consumers of movies are the same as consumers of games, the same as consumers of cars, the consumers of high heel shoes an the consumers of scotch. The difference is how they experience the product; in almost all other ways, consumers of any product are the same. Consumers have a need, and they look to purchase a product to fill that need. They have an expectation that the product they purchase will fill that need. In that, a person who has a need for footwear is going to look for a product to fill that need - footwear. A person with a need for a video game will look for a product to fill that need - a video game. The person looking for footwear will experience their product far differently than the person looking for a video game - that is where the difference is.
 

Tono Makt

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Strain42 said:
"Forbes is the only magazine that seems to agree with us. Therefore they're the only ones with intelligent insight into the situation."

I'm sorry, but speaking as an outsider, that's seriously the only vibe I get from this whole thing.

Almost every article I've read from people in the industry who acknowledge the controversy without really being that bothered by it, I see a lot of fans going "Wow, way to miss the whole point, guy. You clearly don't understand what we're upset about."
To a degree, this is a fair statement. But you're missing a larger issue - Forbes is approaching this professionally, whereas the gaming industry is generally reacting in an extremely unprofessional manner. If it was just fans flaming each other, and the gaming industry - in this case including representatives of the Escapist, like Bob Chipman - were reacting to this professionally, this issue would be far calmer. Unfortunately this has not been the case.
 

CAMDAWG

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Tono Makt said:
Not intending to be snarky (unfortunately it's probably going to come across that way anyway), but I didn't say "only intelligent analysis". I said "best source for intelligent analysis."
I stand corrected, and apologise wholeheartedly, good sir.

But I'm still not sure that "intelligent" is the right word. Certainly it is when comparing to people like moviebob, but probably not the media as a whole.
 

Savagezion

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Gamefront has been doing a pretty good job of covering things from our side as well. They just don't release as many articles about it as forbes it seems.

EDIT: http://www.gamefront.com/did-mass-effect-3-really-deserve-all-those-1010-review-scores/2/ This came a week after release.
 

KingofMadCows

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I really wish something like this had happened earlier with games like Temple of Elemental Evil and Knights of the Old Republic 2.
 

irishda

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Wow, THIS thread doesn't look familiar. Escapist, can't we just start banning people that make a new ME3 thread? Fuck sake, just look at EVERY OTHER one and you'll see more than enough people with the exact same opinion as you, even referencing the EXACT SAME goddamn article.
 

irishda

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Savagezion said:
Gamefront has been doing a pretty good job of covering things from our side as well. They just don't release as many articles about it as forbes it seems.

EDIT: http://www.gamefront.com/did-mass-effect-3-really-deserve-all-those-1010-review-scores/2/ This came a week after release.
I haven't played a game yet that deserves a 10/10
 

Aprilgold

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WALL OF TEXT AHEAD!

Zachary Amaranth said:
It's a shock to see anyone supporting consumers at this point. The "stop being so entitled" logic is pretty pervasive these days.
Its the only actual argument I've read on here or anywhere else dismissing the Mass Effect 3 ending. Weird enough, the word "Entitled" or "Entitlement" is not a insult, and can not be used for that purpose, or else it becomes lying. I seriuosly dislike anyone who even argues against the retake mass effect movement because they will always, always revert to using the word "Entitled" or "Did you fall asleep for the 29 hours of fun?" and clearly don't know anything about the outrage. Bob Chapman* is basically how I see people pissed at the Retake Mass Effect movement, someone who doesn't fully understand what the movement is asking for and just calls it whining babies.

[small]*I'm sorry Bob, but since you put out a video out a video to talk about the Turtles and literally side track yourself to yell at people who have a point, along with your tweets, you very much fit the "JUMP TO AID PUBLISHERS" side on this, its nothing personal, and I love your shows, but it was the only way to put it without being a dick.[/small]

FelixG said:
It is only natural forbes beats places like the escapist with game news and articles.

I mean look at the news on the escapist, their so called 'journalists' do very little research on their own, pretty much just copy pasting their stories from places like massive and kotaku while putting in a word or two of their own here and there.

I have actually started reading forbes for my real gaming news and the escapist for the lulz and forums.
I found Rock Paper Shotgun to be very well done, very much so that it seems that they are very reliable, Mighty Bomb I think it is called is decent. But I agree. Gaming Journalists that are actually Journalists are few and far between.

Buretsu said:
Aisaku said:
It's about Bioware making good on their pre release promises, and meeting their own standards.
This is the only part I take issue with. "Things a developer said in an interview" are not promises. The only promise is the promise of assumed quality, that the third game in the series will match the quality of the first two games, and it is that one that they did not do a sufficient job of fulfilling.
Actually, he said it in January, and if you count the verification process, which could have taken until March to complete, then he was lying. And yes, a interview is as valid as a official note, especially that late in the game, it would be very difficult to not know all about the game. In case your wondering I'm referring to this article:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2

Those saying that a 'interview' is not meant to inform the public of what a certain person can answer then your lying. Commonly, in the music industry, there were many times where Musicians were asked about what they thought of the Music industry at the time. What they say there can be brought back up and used against the person at a later case. If I'm a under-cover serial rapist [I'm not] and I am interviewed by a reporter, if I say that I'm a serial rapist, he will have evidence of me confessing to it. Of course saying "But I was in a Interview, I obviously am not" would not fly with the 5-0. The police always say "What you say can and will be used against you in a court of law" is accurate to a lot in the world that we don't realise.

A interview is as valid as any other peace of info, regardless of the topic.

Carlos Storm said:
It's no secret that retake mass effect has raised $80,000 to child's play
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/15/paragons-of-protest-retake-mass-effect-raises-money-for-kids/
And raised $1,000 for over 400 cupcakes delivered to bioware
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/27/someone-sent-bioware-400-cupcakes.aspx

Do these sound like the actions of children throwing a tantrum? No, any idiot can see that they aren't. Yet everyone I've seen speak out against RTME conveniently forgets little facts like this.

So, why does Forbes still think RTME is a good thing? because Clearly it is.
Within in six posts you hit it on the nail, good job sir or madam or neither.

irishda said:
Wow, THIS thread doesn't look familiar. Escapist, can't we just start banning people that make a new ME3 thread? Fuck sake, just look at EVERY OTHER one and you'll see more than enough people with the exact same opinion as you, even referencing the EXACT SAME goddamn article.
..... Did you read the actual link? No one else here has posted this link, so, for the love of whoever you believe in, learn to read about it since you didn't even bother to read the link and realise that no one else has posted it. Theres no reason to ban this OP since you, apparently, jumped straight into the thread with ME3 written on it just to flame.

viranimus said:
-snippies, sorry, but so much good shit I couldn't take it-
I'm not going to try and argue with you, but do you truly think that a interview can not persuade a person to buy something? Its press, and press, even word of mouth is advertising. Sure, you don't have to pay for word of mouth, but you will get press that way. I know I only bought Minecraft because my friend was talking about it. Interviews, are, essentially free press. I only learned about Overgrowth through a Rock Paper Shotgun interview, so is it a stretch to call it false advertising?

------------------------------------------------------

Once again, the Retake Mass Effect movement, overall is a good thing, either by charity, or by showing that customers in the gaming industry no longer want to be fucked by coporate ass holes, or any other number of things. People defending it use straw mans and hide behind words like "Entitlement" without knowing the meaning, or using this statement, "What about the other 29 hours, that ammends the ending right? Because if it doesn't your a kid."

I'm sick and tired of people defending every single action made by a publisher or developer, and wether people like it or not, people will do anything for money now in days. They will push the border until your literally forced to pay 300$ on top of the 60$ purchase, and will not stop until they meet resistance, and dammit, resistance is good.