Forgive my ignorance . could someone not identify as their race?/ethnicity?

[Lufia Erim]

So I'll admit. I am completely ignorant in this train of thought.Correct me if I'm wrong on any fronts.From what i gathered, people who don't identify with their gender are trangendered. Now I'm not going to add to that because I'm sure whatever information i have is wrong,I'll make a seperate thread for that.

My question is: could someone not identify as their race\ethnicity?

Basically could a black person not identify as a black person but as an asian person instead? Or is it limited to genre?

Why or why not?

 

[Queen Michael]

As I understand it, the thing about gender is that it's personality-related. But being black, Asian or whatever has nothing to do with personality. There's no such thing as "thinking like a black guy."

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The answer to that question is a complex one, because what we assign to race isn't actually racial in nature, it's cultural. So yes it's possible to identify culturally with another race, through that people can reject their skin color/physical arrangement to a degree. Part of this also has to do with economic status, for example; African-Americans have a much higher rate of poverty than Caucasian-Americans. So by that stance a black American child who grows up in an affluent family, either a black on that beat the odds, or a white one, might not identify with "black culture". Because it's far more likely that this child will have grown up in a suburban, or wealthy neighborhood and have gone to better schools, with probably, fewer black peers. Therefore said child might identify more with "white culture", because that's what they were exposed to growing up.

Though I'm not sure how much credence this gives to people like Rachel Dolezal who claim to not identify on the basis of skin color, or who cry racism as a method for personal gain.

I hope that helps.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Er, are you talking about mixed race people? Cause otherwise, not really. Having said that, the whole thing is set up very arbitrarily, and is subject to variation and change.

 

[Akjosch]

"Race" is a method of categorising someone's phenotype along arbitrary, culturally derived lines. As such, different cultures group people differently into different categories, even if they use the same words for those categories.

Essentially though, racial boundaries (what constitutes one race vs. its "neighbours") are as much a bunch of lines in the sand some people agreed on as political boundaries - and as much a matter of constant change.

Everybody has a race as much as everybody has a place they were born at. That doesn't mean bugger all as to which race they identify as (... or which country they feel is their motherland, to continue the analogy), just which category others will put them into. And in the general case, I'm in favour of everyone just accepting the self-identification of everyone else as genuine until they prove it otherwise.

Ethnicity is a bit more complex, because it involves more than just your genes - it's also (some even say, primarily) influenced by your cultural background and upbringing - something nobody is really privy to just from looking at the person in question. It is thus way more fluid and varied than "race".

 

[Subbies]

I'd be tempted to say no, it's ridiculous , but then I remembered we have a prime example of such a case: Michel Jackson.

So we know it's possible. I'd be more tempted to search answers as to why someone can have such a problem.

 

[Kae]

I'd be tempted to say no, it's ridiculous , but then I remembered we have a prime example of such a case: Michel Jackson.

So we know it's possible. I'd be more tempted to search answers as to why someone can have such a problem.

Didn't Michael Jackson change his colour because he had a skin condition that gave him white patches of skin on random parts of his body and the only solution he could think off after many years of hiding it[footnote]This was the reason for having the glove in only one hand.[/footnote] his solution was to make all of his skin the same colour?

I mean that's what I've heard and while I'm sure it's a factor I wouldn't know if that was just it.

OT: I have no idea, to be honest I hadn't heard of the trans-race thing before and I never met anyone like that, while I've met a ton of transgendered people, I don't know, seems far sillier if you ask me but then again who am I to judge after all it's not wise to do so when you are ignorant of a topic.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

Yup. Look up "transethnic". I found it on 4chinz, in their shot at making fun of transgenders, in which case they either invented it or saw it as previously existing and tried to blowing it up more.

In my head, the serious believers of it are japanophiles who identify as Japanese. I guess you could make that whole identifying as black argument with Rachel Dolenzal that's been in the news for way too long now.

It's a thing, definitely. Whether it's a parody that got taken seriously, a parody that's still a parody, or just a made up thing, there is #transethnic on Twitter.

I'm not going into the whole race vs. ethnicity vs. culture argument that everyone else is getting into. Just look up "transethnic" and judge for yourself.

 

[BrokenTinker]

There's no problem with not identifying with their ethnicity - this is actually pretty common depending on how technical you want to get.

There is a problem with not identifying with their race (edit: to clarify since I just realize race can be used in different ways, I'm using the definition used in anthropology and such, where a race is defined as a group sharing a specific set of genetic traits and lived/move together. This means that there are many offshoots and lineages if we are to trace it to the first migration as each vector become their own race once their make up is distinct enough).


ie. a chinese baby raised in an indian family would not identify themselves as chinese in term of ethnicity since they'd have no clue on chinese culture and mannerism. But they can't say they aren't chinese racially as that can be defined through genetic tests, since no matter how he tries to define it, he can't get away from the traits that are unchanging, like being prone to certain types of illness.

 

[IOwnTheSpire]

I feel like the whole trans issue has gotten out of hand on all sides of the discussion. Just bringing it up will often create controversy. If someone asks for my opinion on it, I'll give it, but I don't think anyone's doing a very good job of conveying their point of view all that well.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

No.

It's a power balance thing. Obviously white people can say whatever they want (I don't identify as white!) but a non-white can't do that (I don't identify as black! with the exception of michael jackson).

This explains it better. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEsCWWskbY]

 

[Subbies]

I'd be tempted to say no, it's ridiculous , but then I remembered we have a prime example of such a case: Michel Jackson.

So we know it's possible. I'd be more tempted to search answers as to why someone can have such a problem.

Didn't Michael Jackson change his colour because he had a skin condition that gave him white patches of skin on random parts of his body

That could explain whiting his skin but he underwent surgery to ressemble a Caucasian white man. No matter what the reasons were, he "transitioned" from black man to white man. This totally fits the idea said in the OP. It wasn't courageous, it had serious conséquences and the end result was horrible, not to mention his state of mind.

However it is the only example that comes in mind of said "trans-raciality".

 

[Skatologist]

I'd be tempted to say no, it's ridiculous , but then I remembered we have a prime example of such a case: Michel Jackson.

So we know it's possible. I'd be more tempted to search answers as to why someone can have such a problem.

Didn't Michael Jackson change his colour because he had a skin condition that gave him white patches of skin on random parts of his body

That could explain whiting his skin but he underwent surgery to ressemble a Caucasian white man. No matter what the reasons were, he "transitioned" from black man to white man. This totally fits the idea said in the OP. It wasn't courageous, it had serious conséquences and the end result was horrible, not to mention his state of mind.

However it is the only example that comes in mind of said "trans-raciality".

Autopsy seem to show that he indeed had altered his body, but also did have vitaligo

Also, as far as I know, Michael Jackson never identified as a white person, so even with the alterations to his hair and nose, it's not "trans racial" in the least.

 

[harrisongrimms]

Oh god, as if we dont have enough special snowflakes in the world.
Its bad enough we have to tiptoe our words around the transgendered in order to not offend them, but this too?

Pretty soon, we wont be allowed to describe anyone, and can only say "Hey you!" When calling out to an unknown stranger.

I really hope this doesnt become a thing.
Although the Dave Chapelle skit "The black White Supremicist" with Clayton Bigsby might become a real thing.

Ps fuck yeah Lufia!

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Didn't Michael Jackson change his colour because he had a skin condition that gave him white patches of skin on random parts of his body

That could explain whiting his skin but he underwent surgery to ressemble a Caucasian white man. No matter what the reasons were, he "transitioned" from black man to white man. This totally fits the idea said in the OP. It wasn't courageous, it had serious conséquences and the end result was horrible, not to mention his state of mind.

However it is the only example that comes in mind of said "trans-raciality".

Read this wikipedia page: [link]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson%27s_health_and_appearance[/link]

Notably, he said "I am proud to be black". His skin was whitened by a medical condition, and he took treatment to whiten the rest of his skin because the condition made him more white than black.

As for the surgery, whatever he was trying to achieve with it, there's nothing to suggest it's because he identified as a white man. There's any number of speculations that you can make, but the fact that he didn't speak of it and denied having surgery in the first place (aside from his nose, which he got after he broke it) means that any speculation you make is a complete spitball.

 

[maninahat]

It depends. There are a good 50 plus different "races" of Chinese people, for instance, and you'll find plenty of Chinese claiming to be partially something other than the dominant Han. Others would use "ethnicity" to describe these different peoples though. The terms "race" and "ethnicity" are inconsistently used. For instance, technically speaking desi people are caucasian, despite many Indians having as dark (if not darker) skin as black people, however obviously when an asian is called a "Wog" or a "Paki", it is still classed as racism. It kind of demonstrates how arbitrary our definitions of race are.

Getting to the topic at hand, I know of gender dysphoria, but I am not familiar with race dysphoria. However I can easily see someone identifying with an ethnicity other than themselves. The problem is that things like race and sex are generally less clear cut than sex, so it should be much easier for some person to consider themselves a part of one race, when others say otherwise. Another example: Obama is technically half black, having a white mother and black father, however generally people refer to the man as "black". Isn't that at all strange? Logically, calling him black is as accurate as calling him white - though no one ever would because we are basing his race almost exclusively on his outward appearance.

 

[Subbies]

Didn't Michael Jackson change his colour because he had a skin condition that gave him white patches of skin on random parts of his body

That could explain whiting his skin but he underwent surgery to ressemble a Caucasian white man. No matter what the reasons were, he "transitioned" from black man to white man. This totally fits the idea said in the OP. It wasn't courageous, it had serious conséquences and the end result was horrible, not to mention his state of mind.

However it is the only example that comes in mind of said "trans-raciality".

Read this wikipedia page: [link]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson%27s_health_and_appearance[/link]

Also from the wikipidia page (a great source of knowledge)

Although Jackson was diagnosed with the skin disorder vitiligo, it was also widely speculated that the change was due to skin bleaching

Physicians speculated that he suffered from body dysmorphic disorder

Jackson's skin was a medium-brown color throughout his youth, but, starting in the mid 1980s, his skin gradually grew more pale through what was widely considered to be skin bleaching and changing of his features to appear European

African American psychologists argued Jackson was "a lousy role model for black youth".

According to Taraborrelli, in 1986, Jackson was diagnosed with vitiligo, which Tarraborrelli noted was sometimes considered by doctors to be a consequence of damage done by bleaching chemicals over the years.[

"when you look at the other features, the skin bleaching sort of goes along with what I think was his quest for beauty, so I have to wonder what came first? Vitiligo or lighter skin?"

And this comes from the first few paragraphs of the page you linked.

The problem with OPs post is that contrary to transgendered people, we don't have any examples of people coming out as other races. I personnally believe that the reason is because it's bullshit and not possible. However with MJ, we have an example of a person who underwent surgery to look like another race. This is the closest we have in term of example to what OP said without speculation what so ever. I only stated facts, I don't know what went in MJs head. But if this is what a possible "transracial" person is then it goes to prove that said person has serious issues and "trans-racialism" is simply a symptom.

 

[astrav1]

Absolutely. It is the same as everything else. I personally think it's silly, but so long as they are decent people and contribute to society, I don't really care about them.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Physicians speculated that he suffered from body dysmorphic disorder

Jackson's skin was a medium-brown color throughout his youth, but, starting in the mid 1980s, his skin gradually grew more pale through what was widely considered to be skin bleaching and changing of his features to appear European

African American psychologists argued Jackson was "a lousy role model for black youth".

According to Taraborrelli, in 1986, Jackson was diagnosed with vitiligo, which Tarraborrelli noted was sometimes considered by doctors to be a consequence of damage done by bleaching chemicals over the years.[

"when you look at the other features, the skin bleaching sort of goes along with what I think was his quest for beauty, so I have to wonder what came first? Vitiligo or lighter skin?"

And this comes from the first few paragraphs of the page you linked.

For one, lightening your skin has nothing to do with identifying as a white person. It's a sad reality that in many places darker skin carries negative connotations, and is considered less attractive. A study took images of Barrack Obama and made a regular version and a lighter version. When people were asked about their opinions on him, they would give higher ratings when shown the lighter image. As well, this is widespread in India. Lightening your skin for beauty is a massive thing there.

I know there's been a number of beauty products here that have come under fire for advertising lighter skin, including the one that both Michael Jackson and his sister used.

I wouldn't be surprised if he did suffer from body dysmorphic disorder. That's something very common in people who use lots of plastic surgery. However, it has to do with perceived defects and imperfections in your appearance, which is completely different than identifying as a different race.

Most of the rest of this is people weighing in their personal opinions on the situation, and the one where someone says they think he's a poor model for the black youth has absolutely nothing to do with this.

With how uncommon vitiligo is, and how transracialism is something up till now unheard of, it's incredibly, incredibly unlikely that someone would suffer from both conditions (especially when the chemical cause of vitiligo is merely speculated, and only occurs in people with a predisposition to it in the first place).

The problem with OPs post is that contrary to transgendered people, we don't have any examples of people coming out as other races. I personnally believe that the reason is because it's bullshit and not possible. However with MJ, we have an example of a person who underwent surgery to look like another race. This is the closest we have in term of example to what OP said without speculation what so ever. I only stated facts, I don't know what went in MJs head. But if this is what a possible "transracial" person is then it goes to prove that said person has serious issues and "trans-racialism" is simply a symptom.

Also please, no insults. Lets keep this civil.

I'm not aware of having insulted you.

Your stated facts are chiefly other people's speculations, and the ones that aren't don't do much to imply anything. It's probably the closest publicized case to a condition like that, but you need to make giant leaps of logic to assert that it is.