Former Dev: WoW Has Killed the MMO Genre

Steven Bogos

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Former Dev: WoW Has Killed the MMO Genre


The boss of new MMO Firefall thinks that World of Warcraft made MMOs "too accessible."

"Sometimes I look at WoW and think 'what have we done?' I think I know. I think we killed a genre." Former World of Warcraft developer and CEO of Red 5 Studios Mark Kern believes that WoW, and its countless clones, have killed the MMO genre by making MMOs too accessible to a casual audience. In particular, the ease in leveling through the main game and the race to the mythical "endgame" has made it increasingly difficult for new developers to create rich worlds. "And it worked. Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost?"

"Gear from the new expansions' first quests made raid gear from previous expansions a joke. And the level curve became faster and faster until we reached a point where everyone is just in a race to get to max level, and damn everything else in between. Why care about level 20 gear when you would blow by levels so fast it was obsolete before you even logged off for the night?"

"When the bar is lowered so that everyone can reach max level quickly, it makes getting to max level the only sense of accomplishment in the game," he said, "We lose the whole journey in between, a journey that is supposed to feel fun and rewarding on its own. Nobody stops to admire a beautiful zone or listen to story or lore, because there is no time to do so." Kern says that in World of Warcraft style MMOs, players are fed quests "by a firehose" that are so trivial, and offer such obvious gear upgrades, that players are never in one place long enough to appreciate the world around them.

Kern says that this leads to fatigue from both players and developers, which is causing the genre to stagnate. Players don't want to play another "WoW clone" but developers are afraid of deviating from the formula that WoW has ironically made players interested in the MMO genre in the first place.

Firefall [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/112060-Firefall-Already-Launched-Public-Beta-Rolling-Out-This-Month], the new sci-fi MMO/FPS from Red 5, goes into open beta on July 9, and Kern promises that the team is focusing on the "journey" instead of end game.

Source: VG24/7 [http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/29/firefall-boss-feels-mmo-developers-have-killed-a-genre-by-catering-to-accessibility-over-achievement/]

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Thaluikhain

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'Players don't want to play another "WoW clone" but developers are afraid of deviating from the formula that WoW has ironically made players interested in the MMO genre in the first place.'

Copy and paste that into discussions about a number of other genres, I'd say.
 

VladG

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Not sure what to say about this. He's not wrong, not about the leveling. When I started playing WoW it took me months to get to max level. Now you could level an alt in a week or two.

Though the flip-side is I like the endgame content more than the levelling. From my perspective, this isn't really a bad thing.

For anyone who does enjoy levelling though.. the experience is extremely trivialized. Until you reach max level, nothing matters. There's no point to doing most of the quests, crafting is a waste of time, dungeons are trivialized, gear is mostly pointless (especially if you have Heirloom gear, which also makes combat much too easy). Before these changes though.. I felt that levelling an alt was a chore and hardly ever bothered. In the end, I levelled more alts after the changes than I ever did before.

Rather than proclaim one way or another as ultimately bad, I think there needs to be better balance between the two. Don't make levelling a grindy chore ( Vanilla WoW) but don't make it a meaningless experience either.


Wildstar devs have suggested that levelling will be much slower and gradual and that they aim to make all low level activities (getting loot, crafting, quests, dungeons, etc) relevant and enjoyable. Here's hoping they actually manage it.
 

wetfart

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So ... is he telling me not to buy his game? Okay. I don't think reverse psychology is going to work that well as a marketing technique though.
 

New Troll

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wetfart said:
So ... is he telling me not to buy his game? Okay. I don't think reverse psychology is going to work that well as a marketing technique though.
No, he says the MMO genre is stagnant but his MMO is hoping to bring life back into the adventure.

And that is exactly why I quit WoW. I worked my ass of to be the best, only for an expansion to come out and make me obsolete. Way too much work for very little reward.
 

Scars Unseen

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saintdane05 said:
Yeah! How DARE people try to get into and enjoy a game! How DARE THEY!
point you

Here. Let me help. In the article above, Mark Kern was quoted as saying this:

"We lose the whole journey in between, a journey that is supposed to feel fun and rewarding on its own. Nobody stops to admire a beautiful zone or listen to story or lore, because there is no time to do so." Kern says that in World of Warcraft style MMOs, players are fed quests "by a firehose" that are so trivial, and offer such obvious gear upgrades, that players are never in one place long enough to appreciate the world around them."
What he is talking about has nothing to do with people not getting to enjoy the game, but rather that games that are geared for fast leveling -like WoW and most of its wannabes- encourage a belief that the end game is all that matters, and that everything before should be blown through as quickly as possible. This is made pretty obvious when you see people complaining about games that just came out not having a comprehensive end game. And he's right.

I remember back in Everquest, I always felt a sense of being in the present. Leveling took so long that it was important to enjoy what you were doing, because -and this is my opinion as a somewhat casual MMO player- grinding in that game was a one way trip to insanity. I mean, what you were doing would be considered grinding by today's standards, but there was grinding and there was grinding. One thing that WoW did right over its predecessors was to up the volume of structured quests(20 bear ass quests notwithstanding). What they did wrong was speed up the leveling process so that they became nothing more than a more wordy version of grinding(albeit a shorter version as well).
 

Yarrow

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I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
 

shadowmagus

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Yarrow said:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
As a regular MMO player, I can tell you that this is exactly what they do. They have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to get to endgame and they HAVE to get that awesome gear that they blow through the main quest as fast as possible, going so far as to get a friend or guild to run them through on their first character. It completely kills the idea of what an MMO is supposed to be about, but this normally brings in the "I paid my money, so I can play how I want" crowd, never realizing they are missing the point of the whole thing.
 

Clive Howlitzer

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Speaking as someone who used to partake in quite a few MMOs but none really since the WoW train started. I almost always cared more about the journey and never once saw the appeal of end-game and raids and such. It just wasn't my bag.
 

Steven Bogos

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On the other hand, you have no-endgame MMO's that will leave you in the dust if you didn't play from the beginning. Forget about being decent, let alone competitive.
So WoW did a good job, giving everyone a chance and doing some pretty difficult stuff for those who wanted it.

Also, the reason "no one" bothered with the scenery or lore is because WoW started out with grindy repetative crap. When you've dealt with that, you just click accept and follow the arrow.
Cataclysm brought a massive amount of content that actually made it fun to make new characters. I sure enjoyed it, but by that time I was fed up with the game I'd been playing for nearly a decade.

I'm actually considering rejoining just to do the small stuff, for kicks, but I want to do it *alone*, because I know if I pull in my closest friends, they'll want to hurry through and make me want to as well. As soon as there's one impatient person, it's just a grindfest again.

The single biggest downfall was the streamlining and the catering to people who were obsessed with class balance.
Seeing all that made the druid unique fly off to the other classes and from them to others as well, was heartbreaking. Being X class, used to mean something. Then you'd see shit like PvP imbalance affect PvE and vice-versa, it's moronic.

While fighting to play a certain spec of your class was dreadful and scorned by everyone else, it was still worth the challenge. If you put in a lot of effort, even if it was just to be on-par with other classes, it meant something, it was a worthwhile achievement.
A feral druid tanking Ragnaros in cloth!? Preposterous! Yet it was possible and feasible.

Even if you have 12 million players and investors breathing down your neck, you shouldn't fuck up the game and make it worthless; People notice that and even if they don't understand why the game isn't fun anymore, they'll still feel the impact :/
 

Strazdas

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if you dont like endgame, make mmos without such ridiculous concepts like level caps. oh wiat, there already are plenty, and their popular. so whats your point again?
yes, wow has killed the MMO genre by making it mainstream and now your niche game cant cut its own part unless it becomes imaginative and unique, how terrible that you have to invest some work and not just have people flock to you simply due to lack of choice. i pity you, truly, for you have not found the monopoly that you expected in MMOs.

You just have to pick the right MMOs and you will see that there is aboslutely no need to be a WOW clone to be sucesful.
 

WWmelb

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I reject the notion of vanilla wow's leveling being a trivial grindfest, and i found myself (although i quit a few weeks into cata) reminiscing about the epic quest chains of vanilla wow that just never resurfaced.

I remember picking up the quest from the fallen hero of the horde at around level 37 for the first time, and that quest chain stuck with me until level 60 when i finally killed the last boss of the chain.

The story was awesome, the scope of it was amazing, sending you all over the world, and giving you great azshara back story more than any other quest in the game.

And there were a number of chains like this, that were amazing. Especially things like the class specific epic quests... Benediction, the hunter chain, doomguard, paladin mount... all amazingly awesome (and fucking hard) quests...

It was the stripping down of the leveling process completely in cata that turned me away for good. Go to hub A. do all quests and it will open hub B. continue until 85 through the 3 more zones. Do the same thing in left over zones for cash.

Ugh.

But yes, i want a new MMO that grabs me like WoW did upon release, but the only one that has come close was the secret world. Speaking of which, is free to play now, maybe i should go give it another shot..

And i'll keep an eye on this firefly..er firefall game.
 

Dragonbums

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I fail to see how WoW in general ruined the MMO genre.

That's like saying CoD ruined the shooter genre.

I disagree with that sentiment. Did WoW lose it's spark? Maybe, I never played the games.

However it is entirely the fault of the WoW clones that they killed MMOs. They all want a piece of the cherry pie, but there is only room for one.
Instead of making a blueberry, or an apple pie they just try to make an even more delicious cherry pie to the point where nobody likes pies anymore because all there is is the cherry flavor.

Same thing with shooters. Everyone wanted to be a CoD clone, and the result is what we have now. Dull color shooters with same look and feel. A good amount of people are sick of shooters now, but there is just enough of a high demand to keep the dead horse running.
 

BloodSquirrel

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This guy is an idiot.

Before WoW came out, the top dog, Everquest, had subscription numbers south of 500k. Then WoW hit ten million subscribers, and suddenly morons in the industry decided that WoW numbers were the new norm and that any game that couldn't hold at least a few million subscribers was a failure.

WoW didn't kill the genre. It simply made it apparently how small-time it already was. Now, with game budgets in general being what they are, nobody is going to bother making an MMO with a target of 200k subscribers. It isn't WoW's fault that your MMO that would have only had 100-300k subscribers before isn't getting five million now, and if he's hoping to get that with old-school MMO design he's going to be in trouble.

EDIT: Oh, one other thing. Don't confuse "Blew through leveling content in a few weeks" with "Not enjoying the journey". I've leveled enough characters through enough versions of the same leveling content in WoW, and the post-cataclysm 1-60 content was the most fun content to play through, in part precisely because it was fast enough that the scenery wasn't wearing out its welcome before I moved on to a new zone.
 

Steven Bogos

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shadowmagus said:
Yarrow said:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
As a regular MMO player, I can tell you that this is exactly what they do. They have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to get to endgame and they HAVE to get that awesome gear that they blow through the main quest as fast as possible, going so far as to get a friend or guild to run them through on their first character. It completely kills the idea of what an MMO is supposed to be about, but this normally brings in the "I paid my money, so I can play how I want" crowd, never realizing they are missing the point of the whole thing.
Given the horseshit that passes for writing over at Blizzard these days, I'd say rushing to the endgame is doing the player a favour. The only shame is that the beautiful looking sights you can still see in WoW gets kinda lost amongst the bad writing and rush upwards...

That said I thought endgame in WoW was only played by a minority? Or did all the changes to it alter that? I haven't heard of any updated looks into it so...
 

Phrozenflame500

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I would say he's right. All MMOs now are mostly WoW clones and it's disappointing nobody trys anything too different from the basic formula as there are so many interesting possibilities for an MMO platform.

 

Fdzzaigl

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Dear Firefall developer, I've played your game and was reasonably pleased, but you know just as well as I that it doesn't measure up to WoW. Not because WoW killed the MMO genre, but simply because your game doesn't have the same quality or replay value.

If the MMO genre is dying (and I'm pretty sure it isn't seeing how everyone and their dog is making one), it is because developers lack the creative spirit to make a product that is both immediately appealing while also offering an exciting long term journey and vision.

WoW succeeded in doing that and while all the clones of the game don't help, you can't blame it for succeeding. It was obvious that it would succeed if you look at the state of the genre before it.
 

Ishigami

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BloodSquirrel said:
This guy is an idiot.

Before WoW came out, the top dog, Everquest, had subscription numbers south of 500k. Then WoW hit ten million subscribers, and suddenly morons in the industry decided that WoW numbers were the new norm and that any game that couldn't hold at least a few million subscribers was a failure.

WoW didn't kill the genre. It simply made it apparently how small-time it already was. Now, with game budgets in general being what they are, nobody is going to bother making an MMO with a target of 200k subscribers. It isn't WoW's fault that your MMO that would have only had 100-300k subscribers before isn't getting five million now, and if he's hoping to get that with old-school MMO design he's going to be in trouble.
The Top Dog wasn't EverQuest it was Lineage. Released in 1998 it reached 3 million subscribers by 2002. Then it began a slow decline and was repalced by Lineage 2 (release 2003) as most subscribed MMORPG in 2004 with little more than 2 million subscribers. That didn't last long though because WoW was released shortly after and raced by then in no time.

AFIK there is no MMORPG with more than ~ 2 million players (not subscribers! As most other MMOs are mostly F2P now) aisde from WoW. So your 5 million figure is made up.
Only MOBA (LoL, DotA etc.) draw this amount of players these days.

So yea he is right.
 

Charli

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VladG said:
Not sure what to say about this. He's not wrong, not about the leveling.
That was about what I took from it, the rest is just a nostalgic man thinking back on his Everquest days with a hearty sigh.

Oh sure it was a heck of a time for those that could band together and had all the time in the day...

But for everyone else the game stank. You got in, died lots, flipped a table and went off to play something that didn't have so many shitbags calling you a noob and making off with all your stuff.

Note here in EQ days, I was 12. I wasn't going to be good at it in any capacity, but there was no illusion of even having a chance.

WoW needs to streamline it's difficulty curve. At the moment.

Level 1 to Looking for Raid is this barely incrementing line of nothing steadily crawling up to this massive mount Everest.
Enter Arenas, Normal-Heroic Raiding and Rated Battlegrounds. You wanna play here bub you better make sure you have a friend who can pull you up with a rope or some hella good climbing gear because otherwise you're going to look at that mountain and proclaim; "Sod that!"

And that's where all the 'difficulty' in WoW currently is. Hidden at the end, but you're not 'forced to do it'. You get to LFR, get a weak based epic set with faulty colors that look like the harder gear, and you feel pretty much fulfilled for the most part. And because you're no longer forced to do it to continue your fulfillment those who got knocked out of that niche, or no longer have time to make it, feel like 'all the difficulty was taken out' and take to whining about it on youtube and blogs. Where really the truth of the matter is they just don't have time/gotten bored/their friends have moved on. And being sad about that they need an 'angry excuse' rather than the harsh truth.

TLDR: The difficulty curve is currently not very streamlined. The leveling experience could use lengthening, it no longer feels like a journey and that Blizzard is just trying to hurry everyone along to end game to justify using resources on raiding. (Which...I'll admit the Mists of Pandaria raids so far have been sublime... but...LFR blows and I think is a disappointing outcome for 'new players', sorry.)
 

Makabriel

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Phrozenflame500 said:
I would say he's right. All MMOs now are mostly WoW clones and it's disappointing nobody trys anything too different from the basic formula as there are so many interesting possibilities for an MMO platform.

Interesting video, but it's apples to oranges. There's a reason he could only find Eve as an example of a sandbox MMO. It's because it doesn't work in the same genre. Closest thing you could come to it would be something like Minecraft. I played WoW because I liked the depth. I actually played and paid attention to the quests and the environment around me. I tried playing Eve and was bored out of my mind. There's no journey in Eve. What's weird is that if there was ever a game that defined grinding, that would be it..
 

BloodSquirrel

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Ishigami said:
The Top Dog wasn't EverQuest it was Lineage. Released in 1998 it reached 3 million subscribers by 2002. Then it began a slow decline and was repalced by Lineage 2 (release 2003) as most subscribed MMORPG in 2004 with little more than 2 million subscribers. That didn't last long though because WoW was released shortly after and raced by then in no time.

AFIK there is no MMORPG with more than ~ 2 million players (not subscribers! As most other MMOs are mostly F2P now) aisde from WoW. So your 5 million figure is made up.
Only MOBA (LoL, DotA etc.) draw this amount of players these days.

So yea he is right.
Nobody else has actually *succeeded* at five million subscribers. Instead, they've budgeted for it, gotten far fewer, and either died or went F2P instead. Which is the entire point of my post, as you have failed to notice- WoW's numbers are not the norm by which every MMO should be setting its expectations.
 

Whoracle

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I'd say he's absolutely right. Seeing this in TSW at the moment. I took about 3 or 4 months playing through the game, completing all quests that could conceivably considered "major", and generally had a good time. Nowadays there are more and more people who join the game, breeze through the gear progression, hit the nightmares after 2 weeks, and complain about not having anything to do but grind the end-game gear on the forums.
"This gaem sucks balls! MOAR RAID! MOAR END GAME CONTENT!"*

And TSW has a pretty great world and a good story, at least compared to other MMOs I've played.



* Translation courtesy of google translate.
 

themilo504

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I always liked the journey in most mmo games a lot more than the destination.
Despite that I don?t think the mmo genre is dead or in the process of getting killed.
 

Steven Bogos

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I've been saying this for years. Wow forgot what they were in the grab for playerbase. World of Warcraft... emphasis on the World. They subtly made the game so flat that really, you have no sense of being in the world... you're just in a lobby waiting for the next raid and you occasionally play a farming minigame while you wait.

Wow was originally the sort of game where you could actually get lost and it wasn't a bad thing in hindsight. It gave the world some depth. Face it, the game has lost a lot of it's narrative depth with each expansion. CAta did something smart by changing the start areas a little but otherwise... dead. When you make 80% of your content meaningless you make a game that people will find quite forgettable.

It could be worse and there's still a chance for turn around. See WoW needs to remember the fundamental rule of RPG's, you want to have a tangible effect on the world you're in... WoW no longer does that, it never did actually. Rather than craft boss raids, they would be better served putting in a mechanic that would allow players to seize new territory for their faction and hold it... maybe allow players to determine key narrative points. I mean seriously, who actually wanted Hellscream as Warchief, even if it wound up as hellscream giving the player some chance to affect the outcome would have been a real coup.

For the genre to recover..games need to have depth again, games need to focus on letting the player actually feel a part of the world, not like thw world is just the wallpaper of the lobby screen.


In short WoW and many other games basically decided to start catering to a specific subset o their audience, the subset that enjoys raiding. husly they are slowly losing everyone that isn't such a big fan of Raiding.
 

bandit0802

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This is how my friend wanted me to play, and that's what killed it for me. He kept trying to "power-level" me, and it just ruined the experience. I just wanted to be able to enjoy the game. There's a lot to enjoy. But, yes, there were way too many meaningless quests that didn't do anything for you.

My argument is probably about to become invalid, but this is why I prefer SWTOR. The quest descriptions are delivered in such a way that gets you involved in the conversation instead of having someone just talk at you, and there aren't so many that they start to weigh you down.
 

BloodSquirrel

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BigTuk said:
It could be worse and there's still a chance for turn around. See WoW needs to remember the fundamental rule of RPG's, you want to have a tangible effect on the world you're in... WoW no longer does that, it never did actually. Rather than craft boss raids, they would be better served putting in a mechanic that would allow players to seize new territory for their faction and hold it... maybe allow players to determine key narrative points. I mean seriously, who actually wanted Hellscream as Warchief, even if it wound up as hellscream giving the player some chance to affect the outcome would have been a real coup.
That's a far bigger change to WoW's fundamental structure than they could really get away with doing. They've implemented PvP zones that could be "held" by one faction or the other, but there's not much point to them if you're just trying to get into heroics.
 

dementis

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I've really enjoyed the firefall beta, I was lucky enough to get an invite for the first wave of the closed beta and spent hours a day just thumping for resources. Even in such an early stage of development with no real quests I enjoyed it so much more that WoW.

I like the new system in firefall of having to build your equipment and being able to modify it, I liked the lack of actual levels too. I agree with WoW feeling like a grinding level race to end-game.

I'm kinda going to be sad when it goes open beta as I've enjoyed the relatively small community being helpful and friendly. Something I never experienced during my time on WoW.
 

-Dragmire-

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This sounds like like it could be true but I don't play MMOs so I haven't felt that type of fatigue. MMO end game complaints I have heard of though.
 

Comocat

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SWToR tried that it is probably the most expensive game ever made. Simply put it is a lot easier and cheaper to make your skinner box upgrades and bonuses that rich lore and storytelling.

On top of that, I dont play MMOs because of story, I play because I get sweet upgrades all the time and I can interact with other people. Adding rich lore to an MMO is kind of like putting Kinect in the Xbone, sure it's there but it doesnt really make it better.
 

RJ 17

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"Sometimes I look at WoW and think 'what have we done? ... "And it worked. Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost?"
I got a REALLY good laugh out of these two lines. Not because I disagree with the guy, far from it. It's just I can picture these lines being said in the opening voice-over to some post-apocalyptic movie.

Really I think this guy is spot-on with his description of things. After being with WoW from it's original launch till the end of BC (shortly after Lich King launched, to be exact), he touches on one of the main reasons I finally stopped playing the game, specifically the bit about equipment in the new expansions' starting quests being obscenely overpowered in relative terms to what you had before. Think of the countless hours you spent raiding to get the awesome gear you had. I was a warlock player and I put in a LOT of time to get a full Felheart set at the end of WoW's original game...only to find it laughably inadequate when compared to the quest rewards you got in the opening quests for BC. I didn't get Lich King right away, but seeing the gear my guildmates were getting from the opening quest effectively negated all the work I had done in the previous expansion. Hours upon hours of playing the game all reduced to meaningless "You really should have done something better with your time" waste...so I was done with the game. Why bother leveling up to get to the end game and get all the epic lewt when a couple years down the line it's going to be made into a joke once the new expansion hits?
 

Steven Bogos

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It's not that they're too accessible in general, the games are too short in particular.
shadowmagus said:
Yarrow said:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
As a regular MMO player, I can tell you that this is exactly what they do. They have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to get to endgame and they HAVE to get that awesome gear that they blow through the main quest as fast as possible, going so far as to get a friend or guild to run them through on their first character. It completely kills the idea of what an MMO is supposed to be about, but this normally brings in the "I paid my money, so I can play how I want" crowd, never realizing they are missing the point of the whole thing.
So what they need to do is find a way to slow players down, as long as they "up front about it"
 

TiberiusEsuriens

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Getting ready for a new MMO I've been watching.. I really hope they make the levels take time. The last few MMOs I've played really made me feel like I was falling head over heels towards the 'end game.' I don't mind the focus of a game being end game, but if we feel forced/rushed to get there then the arrival has little impact. If leveling dungeons don't have a steady progression of difficulty and gear then raids have a different impact.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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I dunno I think MMOs are flawed as in it forces you to work with others and be a generic drone just one of many same type archetypes. MMOs should focus on single player and customization(free/mix and match builds/archetypes). Then build and expand the lore. Have group play work like co op things are scaled up to make things harder for a group. I really dig champions online it might be content lite but to make up your own character and tweak it to your tastes its wonderful.
 

cidbahamut

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This guy pretty much nails it. It's one thing FFXI did extremely well back in its heyday. For better or for worse, the journey was long and arduous in that game, but it meant your gear mattered and you took in the world. Once you finally got to end game, it was still all there and the progression from there was anything but straight forward. To this day there are still pieces of gear from the first couple expansions that are still relevant and even Best-In-Slot in some cases.

The mad rush I see in MMOs now just makes it kind of bland and forgettable more often than not.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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BloodSquirrel said:
BigTuk said:
It could be worse and there's still a chance for turn around. See WoW needs to remember the fundamental rule of RPG's, you want to have a tangible effect on the world you're in... WoW no longer does that, it never did actually. Rather than craft boss raids, they would be better served putting in a mechanic that would allow players to seize new territory for their faction and hold it... maybe allow players to determine key narrative points. I mean seriously, who actually wanted Hellscream as Warchief, even if it wound up as hellscream giving the player some chance to affect the outcome would have been a real coup.
That's a far bigger change to WoW's fundamental structure than they could really get away with doing. They've implemented PvP zones that could be "held" by one faction or the other, but there's not much point to them if you're just trying to get into heroics.
This is true... this is quite true which goes back to the problem. They essentially focused on the playerset that loves to raid and funnily enough that demographic is shrinking. The territory control may be a bit much but slowing down levelling may help a bit... or just as effective make rare and uncommon items actually rare and uncommon or better yet, start making things based on skill rather than random chance (like if your role is tank in a dungeon you're scored on how much damage is incurred by the rest of your party, among other factors, get a great score and you get a nice items, (maybe even a rare). Do badly and you get nothing.
 

Colt47

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I don't know why the founders of WoW would blame themselves for what happened to the genre. There wasn't any other game out before World of Warcraft that attempted to cater to the audience like it did, and even the most successful games at the time still showed the game industry was a small time business.

It's kind of like a popular home builder blaming himself for the formation of the housing market bubble ten years later.
 

Ickabod

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When I started playing MMO's back in 99 with Asheron's Call, there wasn't a right or a wrong way to play an MMO, you were simply playing a game. You would grind to level up, but hitting that next level was the the sense of accomplishment at the time. Heck even WoW was like that for me for a long time, I'd level by myself, do some dungeons with friends, but there wasn't any "checklist" of gear that you "had to have".

Once Burning Crusade came out, all of my friends and I jumped on the level train and tried to level up as fast as we could, and that was where the wheels started to come off. We still have fun playing together, but the you must to A, before B, and C before D, exposed the treadmill. I quit for a little while and then came back for Frozen Throne, and had fun with that for a while, until we got to the hard core end game.

Looking at it today, or any MMO for that matter now, I only see the game as being about the end game, and not the game leading up to that point. So now I'm forced to grind out levels so that I can then go play the end game content and grind that content and commitment so that I can then do more of the same. Look I like playing my games, I play them as much as time allows, but I have to play on my time, and once I felt like I was forced to play a given way at a given time with a set timing based on youtube how to videos, it started to lose it's fun.

In the end I played WoW off and on for like 5 years, but I can't see myself ever playing another MMO just because they all share the same model that WoW created. For the most part it was fun, but now feeling like it's only a giant skinner box, I can't see myself ever going back to an MMO. Which is a shame because I liked the just playing the game randomly with my friends.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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Strazdas said:
if you dont like endgame, make mmos without such ridiculous concepts like level caps. oh wiat, there already are plenty, and their popular. so whats your point again?
yes, wow has killed the MMO genre by making it mainstream and now your niche game cant cut its own part unless it becomes imaginative and unique, how terrible that you have to invest some work and not just have people flock to you simply due to lack of choice. i pity you, truly, for you have not found the monopoly that you expected in MMOs.

You just have to pick the right MMOs and you will see that there is aboslutely no need to be a WOW clone to be sucesful.
re-reading the article:


"FORMER WOW DEV: WOW HAS KILLED THE MMO GENRE"

It's isn't some offshoot MMO developer, its a guy who did work on WoW. SO I'm guessing it's safe to assume he would know a bit more about the mmo genre than most people.


He is right though, look at the endless lists of MMO's, about a good quarter are some form of WoW clone, do I even NEED to mention "World of LORDcraft"? New MMO's already have an uphill battle to get people interested, but with WoW that hill becomes a Morpheus ring and you end up going uphill while upside down.

The reason is simple, People played World of Warcraft. They expect the game to hold their hand and tell them "YOU ARE WINNAR" every time they complete a fetch 500 murlock ass quest. The second they have any actual challenge they cry how unfair the game is, how it's a casual mmo, bitching about actually going out on their own.

I would love to see people play Ultima Online before it got nerfed beyond hell.

Oh, you're putting something in your bank? well, that thief just stole all your health pots AND your weapon and is beating you to death with them because you are too stupid to pay attention.

I miss MMO's that actually wouldn't hold your hand all the way through the game like some over obsessive mother taking her 28 year old son out to the park.


But that is alright, there are a few non carebear MMO's out there, and we keep our social pool thoroughly cleansed from the unwashed WoW masses.
 

DugMachine

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Apr 5, 2010
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While he's right, what he has to realize is leveling can still be fun for new players. My friend recently got WoW and he's having a blast leveling up. He's not doing it ultra fast, he's exploring a lot and taking his time to know his class and do some low lvl PvP.

Then you take players like me, who have been playing since Vanilla and it's just ridiculous to assume we're still going to find leveling fun. I have 4 max lvl characters and I've seen just about every quest there is to see, every single zone, every dungeon, every "secret" area. You just can't expect anybody who's played for more than 2 years (and it's quite a few) to still be invested in the leveling scene.

Is the leveling too fast and trivialized? Yes. But only when you know that end game is where the game is truly at. I'm hiding this from my friend so that he maintains his innocence and levels at his own pace. That in itself is a problem but I enjoy WoW and have for many years. I'm hoping Blizzard finally shakes things up with the new expansion but I'm not holding my breath. I've quit before and I'm not opposed to quitting again but at the moment I feel the game is fine.
 

Ferisar

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Oct 2, 2010
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RJ 17 said:
"Sometimes I look at WoW and think 'what have we done? ... "And it worked. Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost?"
I got a REALLY good laugh out of these two lines. Not because I disagree with the guy, far from it. It's just I can picture these lines being said in the opening voice-over to some post-apocalyptic movie.

Really I think this guy is spot-on with his description of things. After being with WoW from it's original launch till the end of BC (shortly after Lich King launched, to be exact), he touches on one of the main reasons I finally stopped playing the game, specifically the bit about equipment in the new expansions' starting quests being obscenely overpowered in relative terms to what you had before. Think of the countless hours you spent raiding to get the awesome gear you had. I was a warlock player and I put in a LOT of time to get a full Felheart set at the end of WoW's original game...only to find it laughably inadequate when compared to the quest rewards you got in the opening quests for BC. I didn't get Lich King right away, but seeing the gear my guildmates were getting from the opening quest effectively negated all the work I had done in the previous expansion. Hours upon hours of playing the game all reduced to meaningless "You really should have done something better with your time" waste...so I was done with the game. Why bother leveling up to get to the end game and get all the epic lewt when a couple years down the line it's going to be made into a joke once the new expansion hits?
That's relative from person to person. I appreciate my efforts in, say, WoW, because when I look back at the BC and WOTLK expansions, I remember good times, not epic loot. That's the thing, the padding to all MMO's is going to be material to some degree, but what you do with it is entirely up to you. Yeah, I raided, yeah I ran dungeons a bunch, yeah the leveling was leveling was leveling, but the stuff that was inbetween, especially the stuff with the players and friends is what made for the good time, not the 1337 l00tz. Much like anything else that's virtual, its value is entirely up to how much you invest in it.

This isn't to say that your opinion isn't valid, but that's not the attitude a lot of people have about the game.

OT:
WoW is weird. I can't reasonably disagree with this guy but neither can I fully agree. I nostalgia (that's right VERBS ************) over vanilla and BC, and the experience, and the leveling, and the questing and so on and so forth, and a lot of it is actually -true-. I was immersed, I was drowning in the game. I was, also, younger. A lot of it was new, a lot of it was completely unseen before by me. Warcraft 3 is what drove me to WoW. Now? Well, I don't know. The Cata newb-zone redesign is really fun in most places. I was actually interested in the quest lines, but not the overall feeling of them. I was entertained, but it was often so tongue-in-cheek that the whole factor of "looking back" was entirely devalued. Did I think Horatio Lane in Westfall was too fucking funny? Yes. Does it mean anything to me two years down the line? Well...

As far as WoW having killed a whole genre, hah, well, maybe. I would argue that the "WoW Killers" killed the MMO genre. WoW is just the cause because its own success made it look like an infallible model worth imitating, which is simply not true. The magic that WoW rode can't really be retraced.

I guess I'll try out Firefall, but I have no great expectations of MMO's anymore. It's just not healthy.

DugMachine said:
Is the leveling too fast and trivialized? Yes. But only when you know that end game is where the game is truly at. I'm hiding this from my friend so that he maintains his innocence and levels at his own pace.
You're a good person. Just wanted to throw that out there. :D
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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shadowmagus said:
Yarrow said:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
As a regular MMO player, I can tell you that this is exactly what they do. They have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to get to endgame and they HAVE to get that awesome gear that they blow through the main quest as fast as possible, going so far as to get a friend or guild to run them through on their first character. It completely kills the idea of what an MMO is supposed to be about, but this normally brings in the "I paid my money, so I can play how I want" crowd, never realizing they are missing the point of the whole thing.

I remember being in a guild well over 10,000 Strong and only a very small minority did what you are saying. Most (including me), took time to level and enjoyed grouping together.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am sure there are thousands of players that rush through content to get to End-Game (I have to say that I did the same back in Wrath of the Lich King), but they are generally a small minority and rarely do they do it more than once, unless they are part of the "HARDCORE RAIDERZ" crowd.

OT: No, they didn't kill MMO's. They didn't ruin the genre. I am enjoying myself very much in recent MMO's such as Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. You don't have to be innovative to make a great game.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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Dragonbums said:
I fail to see how WoW in general ruined the MMO genre.

That's like saying CoD ruined the shooter genre.

Snip
But COD did ruin the shooter genre. Its so insanely popular everything is compared to it and developers want to recreate its success. Instead of making unique games, they take the elements of COD and try to rearrange them into something new. But the people who like COD already own it, so they see knock off games as unnecessary.

WOW is like that. Its too popular, too accessible. MMORPGs have to copy some aspects of it simply to get investors and corporate to agree with it. No one will green light a project if you point to a money-cow like WOW and say "we're not doing that." They would laugh you out of the board room. But the problem is WOW already has the throne. Its already on top and nothing short of shutting down the entire game, servers and all, will dethrone it. and Blizzard would never do that. They'd get sued out the ass by 2-3 million gamers within a month. WOW is like the rabid sleeping wolf in the room. So long as everyone is silent and still, it wont wake up. But try to move and create your own unique MMO, and it wakes up and turns a nice little dining room into an abattoir.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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I'll second all that. As a retired WoW vet, the gradual change to race-to-lvl-80+ purged leveling of any sense of reward or progress. Mounts at lvl 20 instead of 40? Xp piling up so fast that a zone would become xp and gear obsolete before you even finished that 1 region, let alone the other 2 or three at that level. All to rush people to an end game that I suspect is the primary source of WoW burnouts.

May as well reminisce about the days before Dungeon Finder. You had to spam Trade, region chats and all the current party's guilds and contacts to round up a full party to do instances then physically transport at least 2 of you to the entrance to start summonings (hope you have that flight path) and hope an ally/horde party didn't leave/enter the thing to gank and camp you. It was a chaotic, time absorbing mess but for all the suffering it caused, the trial gave a successful instance run a real air of accomplishment. Now it is all insta-teleporting auto-queing and meaningless. Easy. Far too easy.
 

Guffe

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WoW... really many seem to not read the article at all!!!

I completely agree with this guy, I played WoW for about 6 months, 3 of which were Burning Crusade.
I was/am a HUGE WarcraftIII fan and wanted to continue the lore.

The highest level I ever achieved was 45 (Priest) and even getting to that (max level was 50, later raised to 60 back then while I was playing) I felt a bit of achievement.

My problem with MMOs is that I get so easily distracted from the "main objective" and usually just running around exploring and gathering useless shit (RolePlaying was my thing in MMOs). So my last month I went from 42-45, ONE MONTH! I felt like I couldn't play the game correctly and all my friends were talking about the epic battles they did with big groups etc. I wanted to be a part of that but just playing an hour or two a day wasn't going to get me there.

The epicness in the stories of my friends was great to listen to, like I had ones beaten Illidan, Mannoroth and Archimond in Warcraft III. But I also felt the open world of WoW did not fit the storytelling ways of Warcraft, it was too open, which is why I eventually quit.

So I think WoW is too easy, there is no sense of achievement amongs my friends who still play since they can play through the boss and 2 weeks later 70% of the players have killed the same boss, it was epic before to go to youtube and see the first group who succeeded in taking down the big bad guy 3 months after the patch was released. WoW has also changed a lot lately but the "hardcore" groups who play together finish the bosses a lot earlier these days and abck in the early days of WoW.

I think it's nice for the "casual" players to be able to get the epic feeling of these battles but for me it was a bigger charm that only the elite of the players, who spent a lot of time on the game could actually say they'd done something only 2 or 3 % of the whole community had achieved.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Kalezian said:
re-reading the article:


"FORMER WOW DEV: WOW HAS KILLED THE MMO GENRE"

It's isn't some offshoot MMO developer, its a guy who did work on WoW. SO I'm guessing it's safe to assume he would know a bit more about the mmo genre than most people.


He is right though, look at the endless lists of MMO's, about a good quarter are some form of WoW clone, do I even NEED to mention "World of LORDcraft"? New MMO's already have an uphill battle to get people interested, but with WoW that hill becomes a Morpheus ring and you end up going uphill while upside down.

The reason is simple, People played World of Warcraft. They expect the game to hold their hand and tell them "YOU ARE WINNAR" every time they complete a fetch 500 murlock ass quest. The second they have any actual challenge they cry how unfair the game is, how it's a casual mmo, bitching about actually going out on their own.

I would love to see people play Ultima Online before it got nerfed beyond hell.

Oh, you're putting something in your bank? well, that thief just stole all your health pots AND your weapon and is beating you to death with them because you are too stupid to pay attention.

I miss MMO's that actually wouldn't hold your hand all the way through the game like some over obsessive mother taking her 28 year old son out to the park.


But that is alright, there are a few non carebear MMO's out there, and we keep our social pool thoroughly cleansed from the unwashed WoW masses.
A former WOW develper can still be wrong about judging whole MMO audience though. yes, he probably know more than most people, he does not know everything. Youd thing a developer of the second msot selling console would know its audience, but i disgress.....

Yes, there are plenty of wow clones, plenty of COD clones, plenty of SC clones, plenty of Angry Birds clones, see the point? and yet it is somehow only MMOs that suffer from it.
What i pointed out is that you dont have to be a wow clone to be popular. Eve online, wold of tanks, and the like did it fine. heck, the very first graphic MMO (Tibia) is still running and it has no level cap or endgame.
And a good developer has said: i would rather have my players annoyed than bored. and it worked for him.
Ultima at the begining was.... raw..... i had no internet back then so only glimpses of that that i know, but yeah. still, you are taking an extreme to prove the opposite extreme, and neither is good.
yes, i remmeber playing Tibia, dieing 3 times in one day, and what do you know, the whole progress i reached in last month is obliterated. But yeah, i think modern MMos are WAY too forgiving. what is this you dont even losoe exp when you die, what stupidity is this.
carebear comment made me think you play eve.
 

Verkula

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I always read every new quest that I'm doing for the first time, and I still stop every now and then the look around. So no, people like me will keep doing this, and others who just run through the game never gave a shit about it in the first place anyway.
 

Frost27

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Jun 3, 2011
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Isn't having a fantastic leveling experience and great story but no focus on the end game precisely what killed Star Wars TOR's numbers around 6 months after release?
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
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Silentpony said:
Dragonbums said:
I fail to see how WoW in general ruined the MMO genre.

That's like saying CoD ruined the shooter genre.

Snip
But COD did ruin the shooter genre. Its so insanely popular everything is compared to it and developers want to recreate its success. Instead of making unique games, they take the elements of COD and try to rearrange them into something new. But the people who like COD already own it, so they see knock off games as unnecessary.

WOW is like that. Its too popular, too accessible. MMORPGs have to copy some aspects of it simply to get investors and corporate to agree with it. No one will green light a project if you point to a money-cow like WOW and say "we're not doing that." They would laugh you out of the board room. But the problem is WOW already has the throne. Its already on top and nothing short of shutting down the entire game, servers and all, will dethrone it. and Blizzard would never do that. They'd get sued out the ass by 2-3 million gamers within a month. WOW is like the rabid sleeping wolf in the room. So long as everyone is silent and still, it wont wake up. But try to move and create your own unique MMO, and it wakes up and turns a nice little dining room into an abattoir.
Someone already posted a video on the subject. WoW never demanded that everyone follow in it's footsteps. WoW, never went out of it's way to rip apart any MMO that didn't follow it's formula. It was business suits and investors that made MMO's as they are. Nobody wants to invest in a game if it isn't WoW. Not Blizzards fault. They just made a hugely successful game. However the rest of the industry decided that WoW sales are supposed to be the new norm. Despite the fact that it's own success was abnormal.
 

Fordo

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I don't agree with the idea it's WoW that killed the genre. WoW took the model of end-game content being important and pumping out expansion after expansion from Everquest.

And I can tell you, grinding out levels in the Everquest days were BOOOOORRRIIIINNGGG. I remember gunning for lvl 22 on an enchanter because it meant I finally got a somewhat useful buff.

Compare that to running deadmines, or any of the quests in Westfall, no comparison. WoW was the better product.

If the majority of WoW's content is effectively skipped (which is sad b/c instances like Scarlet Monastery and Uldamon were my favorites), than why not scale these zones to your level?

I played pretty high level running MC and BWL with my guild every week for a time, plus PvP grinding and I still made time to screw around in instances like deadmines or BRD just because they were so cool.

TLDR: scale content to the players. that way if you miss it once you're high level, you can go back and experience it.
 

Frost27

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Jun 3, 2011
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Fordo said:
I don't agree with the idea it's WoW that killed the genre. WoW took the model of end-game content being important and pumping out expansion after expansion from Everquest.

And I can tell you, grinding out levels in the Everquest days were BOOOOORRRIIIINNGGG. I remember gunning for lvl 22 on an enchanter because it meant I finally got a somewhat useful buff.

Compare that to running deadmines, or any of the quests in Westfall, no comparison. WoW was the better product.

If the majority of WoW's content is effectively skipped (which is sad b/c instances like Scarlet Monastery and Uldamon were my favorites), than why not scale these zones to your level?

I played pretty high level running MC and BWL with my guild every week for a time, plus PvP grinding and I still made time to screw around in instances like deadmines or BRD just because they were so cool.

TLDR: scale content to the players. that way if you miss it once you're high level, you can go back and experience it.
Good old EQ. THAT was a game that knew how to get the most out of the leveling experience. "Wandered too close to an opposing faction's outpost? Grats, you just died, lost 6 hours of grinding worth of exp and are now naked 4 zones away and have to run a nude monster gauntlet just to loot your own gear off of your own body. Hope you don't die again! Muhaha!" "P.S., Train to zone, VS is with them and I'm coming left!"
 

Aetrion

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WoW hasn't changed the players expectations by introducing fast leveling, they merely reacted to what players already wanted.

The reason why people want to get to the "endgame" is precisely because they feel like worrying overly about gear that you'll just replace a day later is a waste of their time. It also severely hampers you when you want to play an MMO with friends if you have to force yourself to stay the same level that they are so you can reasonably adventure together. Once you hit max level you can play with everyone else who's max level, and players naturally want to hang out in the largest part of the community.

Levels spread out and divide the community, they artificially restrict you from really exploring the world, they take away a lot of what makes an open world appealing. Players instinctively know this, which is why they want to escape the level system.

The problem is that pretty much all MMOs have responded by making leveling faster, instead of just realizing they should either ditch leveling all together, and create a horizontal progression path, or change the leveling system in such a way that a level 1 character can meaningfully participate in the adventures of a level 100 character. I remember Ultima Online, even a character only hours old in UO could throw a healing spell on the most badass character in the realm and help him out that way. Sure, being that weak in a dangerous area was harrowing, but it was possible.


Firefall is one of those games that try their best to kind of give you the best of both worlds, but in all honesty, it just kind of falls flat. There isn't enough to do in Firefall to really work as a game that doesn't guide you along with levels, and the fact that your character has no real identity but is just any random guy in a suit makes it boring to play from a sandbox standpoint. Sandbox is all about player generated content, but you can't even generate a unique character in Firefall. All the random content that pops up in it is obnoxious to deal with. Towns get attacked, which is cool, I can totally get behind that, but more often than not you have to run 10-15 minutes to get there and by the time you show up someone else has already taken care of it.
The irony is that the main motivation to do anything in Firefall is leveling up your frames and finding the resources to upgrade them, which feels like a huge pointless grind, especially since it's one of those games that goes "Well why would people keep digging for resources if they already have the best gear? Oh oh, I know! Because their gear breaks and they have to make more of it" ...

I really wish someone would make an MMO where the reason I keep playing is the adventure. The problem is that every time someone tries to copy UOs approach to MMOs the only thing they focus on is PKing and losing gear all the time, as if those things were what made UO good. The truth is though, what made UO great was the fact that you could spend weeks exploring the same dungeon, and when you knew it inside and out and got kind of bored you could find a different one to explore. It's all the stuff that people say that defined UO that actually made it less popular than it deserved to be. What really defined it was the fact that you were constantly exploring in it.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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Must... Resist... Linking... Tasteful Understated Nerdrage video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64
 

azriel2422

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Jul 19, 2010
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Ferisar said:
RJ 17 said:
"Sometimes I look at WoW and think 'what have we done? ... "And it worked. Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost?"
I got a REALLY good laugh out of these two lines. Not because I disagree with the guy, far from it. It's just I can picture these lines being said in the opening voice-over to some post-apocalyptic movie.

Really I think this guy is spot-on with his description of things. After being with WoW from it's original launch till the end of BC (shortly after Lich King launched, to be exact), he touches on one of the main reasons I finally stopped playing the game, specifically the bit about equipment in the new expansions' starting quests being obscenely overpowered in relative terms to what you had before. Think of the countless hours you spent raiding to get the awesome gear you had. I was a warlock player and I put in a LOT of time to get a full Felheart set at the end of WoW's original game...only to find it laughably inadequate when compared to the quest rewards you got in the opening quests for BC. I didn't get Lich King right away, but seeing the gear my guildmates were getting from the opening quest effectively negated all the work I had done in the previous expansion. Hours upon hours of playing the game all reduced to meaningless "You really should have done something better with your time" waste...so I was done with the game. Why bother leveling up to get to the end game and get all the epic lewt when a couple years down the line it's going to be made into a joke once the new expansion hits?
That's relative from person to person. I appreciate my efforts in, say, WoW, because when I look back at the BC and WOTLK expansions, I remember good times, not epic loot. That's the thing, the padding to all MMO's is going to be material to some degree, but what you do with it is entirely up to you. Yeah, I raided, yeah I ran dungeons a bunch, yeah the leveling was leveling was leveling, but the stuff that was inbetween, especially the stuff with the players and friends is what made for the good time, not the 1337 l00tz. Much like anything else that's virtual, its value is entirely up to how much you invest in it.

This isn't to say that your opinion isn't valid, but that's not the attitude a lot of people have about the game.

OT:
WoW is weird. I can't reasonably disagree with this guy but neither can I fully agree. I nostalgia (that's right VERBS ************) over vanilla and BC, and the experience, and the leveling, and the questing and so on and so forth, and a lot of it is actually -true-. I was immersed, I was drowning in the game. I was, also, younger. A lot of it was new, a lot of it was completely unseen before by me. Warcraft 3 is what drove me to WoW. Now? Well, I don't know. The Cata newb-zone redesign is really fun in most places. I was actually interested in the quest lines, but not the overall feeling of them. I was entertained, but it was often so tongue-in-cheek that the whole factor of "looking back" was entirely devalued. Did I think Horatio Lane in Westfall was too fucking funny? Yes. Does it mean anything to me two years down the line? Well...

As far as WoW having killed a whole genre, hah, well, maybe. I would argue that the "WoW Killers" killed the MMO genre. WoW is just the cause because its own success made it look like an infallible model worth imitating, which is simply not true. The magic that WoW rode can't really be retraced.

I guess I'll try out Firefall, but I have no great expectations of MMO's anymore. It's just not healthy.

DugMachine said:
Is the leveling too fast and trivialized? Yes. But only when you know that end game is where the game is truly at. I'm hiding this from my friend so that he maintains his innocence and levels at his own pace.
You're a good person. Just wanted to throw that out there. :D

This ^^^...this whole exchange is good. I've played a few MMO's, and played WoW since it started. I always loved Blizzard, for me it started with Super Nintendo "Lost Vikings" game and Warcraft. WoW introduced me to MMO's and showed me a whole world of games (no pun intended) that I could try with varying degrees of similarities to WoW. I've gamed since the "old" Nintendo, so gaming isn't new to me, but the idea that the world continued when I logged off was awesome, and foreign. I don't know if WoW killed MMO's, but it definitely changed the rules. No longer were they for the niche crowds, though the niche could (and probably still can) find something in WoW to enjoy (imo). I actually play SWTOR (please don't judge me, I love star wars!) and have played in open betas for a few others and I always come back to WoW. My guild is pretty awesome, and some guildies I've become good friends with. It could also be soul-crushingly addictive to me. Yup, that's probably it
 

Fordo

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Frost27 said:
"Wandered too close to an opposing faction's outpost? Grats, you just died, lost 6 hours of grinding worth of exp and are now naked 4 zones away and have to run a nude monster gauntlet just to loot your own gear off of your own body. Hope you don't die again! Muhaha!" "P.S., Train to zone, VS is with them and I'm coming left!"
And... You've just described how I lost my first lvl 25 Monk's gear. =P

Like someone mentioned earlier, you could log into WoW and want to do BRD or UBRS back in the Vanilla days, but that was no guarantee that was what you were going to do. Traveling to the destination, and getting into the instance was often tricky if the opposing faction was massed just outside the instance. I used to love the challenge these little moments provided to remind you of just how big WoW was and you were just one piece of an entire community. I remember a gang of my friends on the horde would take one day a week at least to charge into menethil harbor and dance around on the roof of the town hall to take on any alliance brave enough to stop our dancing on their lands.

Being able to log in, teleport to your goal, do a fairly routine instance and log out must be rather boring.
 

Frost27

Good news everyone!
Jun 3, 2011
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Fordo said:
Frost27 said:
"Wandered too close to an opposing faction's outpost? Grats, you just died, lost 6 hours of grinding worth of exp and are now naked 4 zones away and have to run a nude monster gauntlet just to loot your own gear off of your own body. Hope you don't die again! Muhaha!" "P.S., Train to zone, VS is with them and I'm coming left!"
And... You've just described how I lost my first lvl 25 Monk's gear. =P
Ahh another fond memory...
"Gurgle!" has fallen to the ground.


"Ahh shit..."


I really do miss that game. At least up until late stage Luclin.
 

Devil's Due

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Sep 27, 2008
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VladG said:
Not sure what to say about this. He's not wrong, not about the leveling. When I started playing WoW it took me months to get to max level. Now you could level an alt in a week or two.
I completely agree. When WoW was first out, it took me two years to get to the top since I was busy PvPing and studying inbetween game sessions, but those few gaming sessions were absolutely amazing. I remember fondly of entire adventures being lost in WoW with a friend at my younger age and the joy it brought us. Hell, you had two level 20 Night Elf's running through Horde territory with no idea how the game works other than quests and suddenly we're in "Hostile" territory? Confusing! So we snuck past Horde NPC patrols that were way too high a level for us and tried to survey the land we've never been in befeore. We spent hours there trying to figure out what's going on, since this was when mounts were level 40 so it took us forever to travel. Hell, I uh, kind of destroyed my Heartstone by accident while I was there and my friend had to protect me for about an hour until we escaped back to Alliance territory after being chased by a few Horde players since we accidently attacked them.

It sounds boring on text but we spent literally hours walking through enemy territory new to this game having a blast back in 2004 just getting in all sorts of trouble. Every time either of us leveled up we were estatic and of course sent each other the infamous "DING!" whispers to alert one another. It was a celebration whenever one of us leveled.

Then TBC came out and we went from level 58 to 70 in 2 weeks. There were no adventures, just quests, xp, and then dailys to farm gold for mounts. It became boring, unfulfilled. Having left WoW just a few weeks before WotLK launched, I went to other MMOs but the only one that could offer a new experience was Star Wars Galaxies. All the others were just clones in some way. Now that SWG is dead, WoW is still thumping it's chest, and MMO's continue to copy it, I just left the market entirely. MMOs were my favorite during my early gaming years. Now they are dried up.

I'm not blaming WoW, but WoW was the game that brought MMO's to it's knees. I miss vanilla WoW.

(Sorry for the long response, just got swept up all of a sudden in memories)
 

wingweaver84

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Who CARES about the endgame??That's not why I play.It took 2 years to level up my Warrior to 85,and I enjoyed it every step of the way.Now with Pandaria,I have the opportunity to go to 90,so if anything it's a new bullet in a long list of things I haven't done in WoW!
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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Ferisar said:
Indeed, to each their own, I was simply expressing my views on the matter, just as you have yours. I won't deny that a big part of the appeal to raiding in WoW WAS the social aspect more than the material aspect. Just the same, however, that's still countless hours of effort and work to washed down the drain when your gear is rendered obsolete by a new expansion. As I said, the negating of those hours of effort by removing the value of the reward for that effort was just one of the reasons I ended up leaving WoW.

The other part of it was guild drama that I didn't want to deal with anymore. :p

I nostalgia (that's right VERBS ************)
Actually "nostalgia" is a noun. The verb form is either "nostalgize" or "wax nostalgic". The only reason I point this out is because you made such a big deal of it yourself. :p
 

barbzilla

He who speaks words from mouth!
Dec 6, 2010
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Makabriel said:
Phrozenflame500 said:
I would say he's right. All MMOs now are mostly WoW clones and it's disappointing nobody trys anything too different from the basic formula as there are so many interesting possibilities for an MMO platform.

Interesting video, but it's apples to oranges. There's a reason he could only find Eve as an example of a sandbox MMO. It's because it doesn't work in the same genre. Closest thing you could come to it would be something like Minecraft. I played WoW because I liked the depth. I actually played and paid attention to the quests and the environment around me. I tried playing Eve and was bored out of my mind. There's no journey in Eve. What's weird is that if there was ever a game that defined grinding, that would be it..

It does work, or it did until Sony decided to kill it. SWG pre-CU was amazing, and it was a true sandbox game. There was nothing forcing you into any path, and honestly I leveled one character up doing nothing buy killing random mobs because I felt like it. I had another character who was afraid to leave his homeworld of Tatooine, so instead he started his own town and became a mayor (having leveled up as a bureaucrat). Yet for those who wanted a story, it was there was well. There were plenty of quest lines to follow, there was the whole galactic civil war happening, and they had it open to do with as you pleased.

As for what the Firefall guy said, I think he's just a bit miffed that his game is so bland. It was an interesting concept, but from what I played of it, the entire game is just a resource grab. It is almost as though you are role playing the part of an scv in starcraft. Don't get me wrong, there is content in the game, but for the most part you will spend most of your time harvesting resources (which is pretty fun the first hundred or so times you do it).
 

Coreless

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I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.
 

klaynexas3

My shoes hurt
Dec 30, 2009
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This is why I play on a Burning Crusade private server. Leveling is slow and tedious at that expansion, but it actually makes it worth playing those early levels, unlike new WoW where you blow through it all, making the Leveling experience dull in of itself. There's nothing wrong with accessibility, there is something wrong, however, with hand holding up until max level, and then some. There's no challenge or worth to anything you do in WoW anymore. I'm glad a damn developer finally gets this, and not just a playerbase.
 

Abomination

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Yeah, how DARE a company provide what a significant number of consumers want.

And how DARE those consumers want that thing!

And how DARE they form a business arrangement that results in profits for one and enjoyment for the other!

Blaming the consumer for liking something and he producer for providing it is the same as blaming the tide for rising and falling.

But oh no, let's take shots at the guy on top and those sell-out unwashed masses for purchasing that obvious tripe. Congratulations, you have the sour-grapes gaming hipster.

Captcha: rocket science
No, it's market forces - economics.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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What's funny to me is that I feel the exact opposite about The Old Republic. Where the in between content is excellent, but the endgame content sucks ass.
 

Whoracle

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Abomination said:
Yeah, how DARE a company provide what a significant number of consumers want.

And how DARE those consumers want that thing!

And how DARE they form a business arrangement that results in profits for one and enjoyment for the other!
Y'know, if you put it that way, drug dealers don't sound so bad all of a sudden...

Not saying WoW is a drug (or at least not more than anything enjoyable tends to be), but just because people want it doesn't mean it's the right thing in the long term. And through creating high expectations both on the player and on the investor side, WoW has effectively killed the genre. But for me it's just expression part of the current AAA moloch.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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Pleaaaaase...


The guy wasn't some bigwig behind World of Warcraft, he was a Team Lead within the development group.



I must also ask, has everyone forgotten a little video that was on the Escapist some time ago about pasta sauce? You know, the one that says there is no such thing as a "perfect sauce", just "perfect sauces". That's the problem in the industry. World of Warcraft didn't kill the MMO Genre, it filled a gap that its competitors at the time didn't. And when those competitors saw its success, instead of sticking with their guns, they decided to cut and gut themselves until their misshapen, bloodied forms appeared at least vaguely similar to WoW.

The massive number of subscribers with WoW is also an anomaly, not a norm. The fact that idiots like Bioware+EA spend 300 mill expecting something close to that level isn't the fault of Blizzard, but of their own ignorance. This is the exact same reason that Dark Souls 2 million copies sold was a success, while Tomb Raider's 3.5 mill (in a small span of time) was seen as horrid failure.


Throwing money at a project won't make it better, and it certainly won't make it more desirable. Marketing it correctly, budgeting reasonably, and knowing just who you want to target does. Sadly, most games just attempt to match that "perfect sauce", instead of making their own "perfect sauce".
 

MooShoo

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I feel this video from mikepreachwow sums it up rather well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo
 

Agente L

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Fair point. But only work for past expansions, of after xp nerfs. Getting to level 90 in pandaria would take a week or two, if you didn't power leveled through it.

But WoW is also the most played MMO of all history, and one of the most profitable franchises of all entertainment, so I guess they don't really care.
 

Diddy_Mao

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Did they ramp up the leveling process from 1 to 90?

Yes they did.

Is this a bad thing? I don't really think so. I had a friend join the game for the first time a few months ago. That's 5 expansions worth of content to get though and everyone he knew was already at the max level. Meaning that he had to "power level" to get himself to a point where he could play with us...which was pretty much the whole reason he started playing.

Since then, he's also rolled an alternate character with whom he's playing through the game story and enjoying at his own pace. The idea that the path from X to Y is too fast only really counts if your audience can't take advantage of the slower pace as well...which of course they can.

Now I will admit that their sloppy handling of the in game time line makes that experience a little less enjoyable but when it's all said and done that's not a deal breaker.

As for not wanting to play another WoW Clone...well yeah I'll agree with that. I already play WoW I'm not going to pump another $15.00 a month into another MMO that's just the same experience (Star Wars: The Old Republic...you know what you did.) That's why I still play The Secret World and why I'm really looking forward to Wildstar.
 

Sectan

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WWmelb said:
And there were a number of chains like this, that were amazing. Especially things like the class specific epic quests... Benediction, the hunter chain, doomguard, paladin mount... all amazingly awesome (and fucking hard) quests...
I remember getting my paladin mount in Burning Crusade. Even though it was easier than in vanilla, there was this sense of adventure to it. Running across the world (Literally because you didn't get a mount until level 40) gathering all of these materials and killing bosses. Finally entering scholomance and fighting for your life before riding off into the sunset on a charger with your 4 other friends. THAT is great MMO gameplay. And it's been reduced to *Run to Trainer, pay 40 gold, hit I and wait for you queue to pop for a dungeon*
 

Sansha

There's a principle in business
Nov 16, 2008
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Every time I hear the argument that people don't want to play another WoW clone, but developers don't want to deviate from its winning formula... I say look at EVE Online.

Then I say 'Try harder. CCP did.'
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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*sings* I 100% agree and I've been saying it for ages

WoW hasn't killed the genre really. It's just a fucking annoying bad habit these days that all the entertainment is solely based around what was popular before and so becomes a soulless copy with no lasting appeal. That's the real problem plaguing all the industry's these days. I can't even go to the fucking movies anymore without doing some research to make sure the writing isn't aimed at giggling children.

Also, I would like to see an MMO that doesn't allow you to trade equipment to another character. Just one, so every character goes through a challenging time.
 

miketehmage

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He has a point. I remember back in vanilla I'd spend a week or so running a dungeon for a piece of loot, while levelling up. And back then dungeon groups actually had to talk to each other and classes weren't homogenised for convenience of finding a raid group.

The dungeon finder, class homogenisation, and easier levelling really did tear the soul out of the game. I only play WoW for the arenas now. Those are still great fun at least.
 

skywolfblue

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I agree with the Firefall dev to some extent.

Coreless said:
I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.
I wouldn't say I'd blame the customers too much, it's natural to want things to be more convenient. It just wasn't possible for most people to see what the path to convenience would cost them in the end.

Wanting to level alts faster is a nice wish, but after time it's turned leveling into a race. All those 30% decreases in leveling XP every expansion make it harder and harder to actually stay around long enough to savor a zone before rapidly outleveling it.

Wanting to find groups easier has led to LFG, which was nice at first, but after time has etched away at the community spirit of the game.
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
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I care more for the journey, but I always thought the reason WoW went to focusing on Endgame rather than the journey was a combination of the massive playerbase reaching the top and the fact that games in general have become much easier.

If somebody were to play a game on the PC or console in 2010 only to go onto WoW Vanilla (I know it ended in 2007), going from taking on entire armies to getting mauled to death by two wolves would be a little depressing for a new player.

But hey at least he's not saying "My MMO will kill WoW".
 

EstrogenicMuscle

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I don't think that the fix is making the endgame harder to reach.

But rather, making the level itself less important. Levels are just one tool in the RPG shed. A good one, but abused in MMORPGs. Making the journey more important can be made better by also making the journey more entertaining.

And by not only making level less important, but in many ways, gear. In fact in many ways I don't think that gear should be tied to level. I think that any level should be able to use any gear. If anything should be done to prevent higher level gear form being used at lower levels, it should be that higher level characters get exponential stat bonuses on gear. Locking gear to a level is completely illogical.

It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, but not from a lore standpoint. And there are better ways of preventing overpower caps. Like, again, higher level characters using the same gear more effectively and getting level bonuses. No other RPG genre has level caps on what level can wear what gear.

Back on the subject of levels, I think that not only do levels need to become less important. But I think that a clear and defined "endgame" needs to disappear entirely. A lot of people decry the "sphere grid" system in Final Fantasy games. But MMORPGs are one of the few genres of game that I think something like a sphere grid would be a huge benefit.

A true endgame really would be impossible to reach, if, instead of having a endgame levelcap of something like 50 or 75, have thousands of little nodes to fill that were more important than your level. And make not so clearly defined transitions in the game. When you're at a certain point in the game, you know it. And I feel like that's a flaw, takes away mystery and desire to explore and discover.
 

LetalisK

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Dude clearly hasn't paid attention to WoW in the last couple years. They've pushed their development capabilities throughout the expansions and they spend a ridiculous amount of time and resources on the questing experience. All while continuing to push the end game. TOR already tried emphasizing the leveling experience and it learned the hard lesson that you better have a decent end game to back it up or you're fucked.
 

Bestival

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I'm guessing this guy didn't play Guild Wars 2. They sort of did the opposite. Great fun leveling and exploring as you go, and then no real end game to speak of. As much as I sometimes hated WoW making me run the same dungeons over and over for that 0.1% more crit rating ring, at least that gave you some sort of sad sad goal to play for.
GW2 stats are all the same, and I already have the set looks I like best.

Personally I liked WoW's setup better, though I am quite bored of it now. It did keep me coming back for many years though, as leveling never did.
 

Coreless

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skywolfblue said:
I agree with the Firefall dev to some extent.

Coreless said:
I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.
I wouldn't say I'd blame the customers too much, it's natural to want things to be more convenient. It just wasn't possible for most people to see what the path to convenience would cost them in the end.

Wanting to level alts faster is a nice wish, but after time it's turned leveling into a race. All those 30% decreases in leveling XP every expansion make it harder and harder to actually stay around long enough to savor a zone before rapidly outleveling it.

Wanting to find groups easier has led to LFG, which was nice at first, but after time has etched away at the community spirit of the game.
The players knew exactly what it would cost them, they complained night and day about content being too hard, taking too long and end game too exclusive. Guess what Blizzard did? They listened to them and we got everything that came with the WotLK expansion. Faster leveling, Looking for Group finder, welfare epics, achievements and an accessible endgame that was no where as challenging as Burning Crusade.

Do you think that stuff just appeared in a vacuum? People whined and complained for changes and Blizzard gave them exactly what they wanted so they only have themselves to blame.
 

JakobBloch

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Apr 7, 2008
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I hope that Firefall does well. I really do.

But this is just a binch of PR bullocks. WoW killing MMOs by encouraging racing to the end-game? This is a bunch of... horse droppings.

WoW never EVER encouraged you to race past content. It allowed you to do so if you had the skill, equipment and knowledge. The "Race for the End-game" came from the players. Not at any point in my entire time with WoW did the game encourage me to race through the content. That pressure came entirely from other players: "Get to max level and get into raiding." That was the mantra from the people who wanted that server 1st kill. The game itself has only grown more and more insistent that you experience the story and get the background, by making it easier and easier to get that background information.
In Vanilla WoW almost ALL information came in the form of quest-text. As time has gone on and blizzards experience has grown we have come to a place where the story is told through many other means: cut-scenes, events, NPC's talking to you, on screen pop-ups, weird quests with altered rules and more. The game is streamlined certainly but the streamlining has only made it easier to experience the world around you (with the possible exception of the quest tracker).

Ultimately this is just a cheap shot made by a dev to make his NEW IMPROVED game seem better.
 

lancar

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WoW did exactly what the players wanted it to do. Many things were clear-cut, and other things were gradually adapted from player behaviour.

The problem didn't lie so much in the things they developed in direct response to standard player requests, like customization options and new content (most of which was actually pretty good), but instead in their reactive development from observing player behaviour.

Such as...
Players rushed through the levelling in order to get to play their new characters with their friends who were max level, so blizzard made levelling faster.

Players made mods to simplify boss encounters, and blizzard adjusted the game to compensate... and when they compensated so much that the encounters were (allegedly) too hard to run without the mods, they implemented them into the game as well. Ultimately, all the bosses are now detailed in a codex, easily reachable from within the game, all in the name of 'accessibility'.

Players complained a lot about the right kind of loot not dropping, and they 'burned out' from running the same instances over and over again. In response, Blizzard made loot drops more frequent, more high quality, and easier to get to.


What did it all result in?

Players rushing to reach the endgame so they could fight easy bosses and get their shiny purples quickly.

The endgame gear became the ONLY reason for playing, and so it has remained for quite some time.
Don't get me wrong, the gear was always a factor, but I refuse to believe it was all about nothing but gear back in the day. I certainly didn't feel that way then... but I do now.


So... basically, I think this former dev has a point. Maybe not that WoW was inherently bad to begin with, but its growth was uncontrolled, its evolution too reactive to player behaviour and thus has indeed caused damage to the MMO genre.
You might argue that we got what we wanted, and I'd agree with you... but with a small adjustment.

We got what we THOUGHT we wanted.


Thinking back on my 8 years with the game, I still only remember the first incarnation of the game fondly. Before the first expansion, The Burning Crusade, was released. Everything I liked about it after that point is almost solely guild things, because the game had turned into a chore. A 'second job'. An activity I did to stay competetive in the endgame to enable me to have fun with the guild. I just can't help but wish it would've been so more than that.


Captcha: Dream big
heh...
 

AuronFtw

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New Troll said:
And that is exactly why I quit WoW. I worked my ass of to be the best, only for an expansion to come out and make me obsolete. Way too much work for very little reward.
If you were actually "the best," no amount of new content could take that away from you. Server first boss kill achievements never go away. Incredibly rare one-time-only mounts never go away.

If by "the best" you mean "I had good gear for one tier of raid content," then no, you weren't actually the best, sorry to break it to you. Caring about gear becoming outdated by new expansions makes me assume you're in the latter category. If you were good and in a good guild, gear would come to you every expansion as you progressed. The true challenge is learning your class fully and completely, and performing flawlessly for every raid fight so your guild could get quick boss kills. After that, gearing up is fucking easy. It happens automatically.
 

xdiesp

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I stopped playing during WOTLK, I had done Lich King 10 and was routinely solo farming Molten Core. Me and Ragnaros were on even terms.

I had played for years. WOW players tend to lose sight of what is this "fun" thing we're talking about, as in there is more like being busy together after chores than playing. You know what opened my eyes? I got a hold of Mario Galaxy 2 and it suddenly sparked in me the realization that videogaming was supposed to be like that.
 

MammothBlade

It's not that I LIKE you b-baka!
Oct 12, 2011
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Yarrow said:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
Now I've played Guild Wars 2, but I feel it's still missing something.

Maybe make it difficult for those players to "beat" the game without engaging with the game world properly. If you don't pay attention, you're gonna die quick. Maybe not so much forcing players to engage with the lore, it feels so arduous to be forced along a quest line to be honest. I'd rather a world where every player is more or less free to do what they want. The exploration and interaction with the world needs to be its own gratification. Maybe the NPCs would be smart, follow a routine, you can interact with them in some way and the game world reacts in turn. Killing non-essential NPCs? Oh yes. And then players get a reward for hunting down the human perpetrator. I also think that maybe there's a lot more room for player agency, without the zero-sum game of EVE online PVP. Want to become a merchant, by all means do so and contribute to the economy. Or perhaps you want to be a farmer, miner, craftsman, or hunter. You can purchase your own property and use it how you want. Want to become a manufacturer, then do so. Have a flexible currency with price changes, loans, and so on. Food might get more expensive one week, but as people produce more the prices will go down. Make the pvp optional but rewarding.

It doesn't appeal to everyone, of course. A lot of people just want grinding action. Let them stay in WoW.
 

Madman123456

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Feb 11, 2011
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Bleh. Well WoW did, in my opinion, some damage to the mmorpg genre. Not because of the reasons listed above, those are Bullshit.
WoW was too successful. It brought in a big pile of money and everyone wanted a piece of that.
And so everyone copied stuff from WoW. In "my" mmo, i found myself going into leveled instances, team instances and eventually we got PvP places called "Battlestations" which popped out of nowhere.

Then came the "puzzle" instances in which you need to do this and that, otherwise enemies aren't bothered too much when you shoot them in the Face.

Eventually i was playing a flimsy shadow of wow. Got everything important there and when you got all the items in one expansion you're waiting for the next one to make much of your stuff useless.
Nothing new to do otherwise, not only in my game, but in every game because everyone was stealing stuff from WoW.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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I'll be blunt: Not a single "oldschool MMO" I tried was ever about some silly-ass journey; it was about two things:
1) GRIND
2) Griefing

Even when WoW was brand-new, the then-niche MMO market was already rotting from within and becoming increasingly exclusionary. WoW, for all of its sins, tried its damnest to cut away at the principle problems with MMOs; doing so netted them one of the most profitable and popular games ever made.

Whether WoW "killed" MMOs or not; I'm not one who can judge without bias.
(I hate MMOs. I've never had a good long-term experience within an MMO.)
 

FoolKiller

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Feb 8, 2008
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New Troll said:
wetfart said:
So ... is he telling me not to buy his game? Okay. I don't think reverse psychology is going to work that well as a marketing technique though.
No, he says the MMO genre is stagnant but his MMO is hoping to bring life back into the adventure.

And that is exactly why I quit WoW. I worked my ass of to be the best, only for an expansion to come out and make me obsolete. Way too much work for very little reward.
And he's also saying that you should buy his non-WOW clone MMO because it isn't a WOW clone.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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skywolfblue said:
I agree with the Firefall dev to some extent.

Coreless said:
I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.
I wouldn't say I'd blame the customers too much, it's natural to want things to be more convenient. It just wasn't possible for most people to see what the path to convenience would cost them in the end.

Wanting to level alts faster is a nice wish, but after time it's turned leveling into a race. All those 30% decreases in leveling XP every expansion make it harder and harder to actually stay around long enough to savor a zone before rapidly outleveling it.

Wanting to find groups easier has led to LFG, which was nice at first, but after time has etched away at the community spirit of the game.
I think you're plain wrong.
Before XP was decreased you would often find that you had to grind out mobs to get to new zones.
Group finders were added due to empty servers and elitist idiots preventing people from assembling groups.
 

BoogieManFL

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Star Wars The Old Republic was too afraid to be too different from WoW and look what happened to it.

Also, when the current level cap is *90* you just want it to be over. And to be blunt, most of the quests in WoW are very bland, boring, and uncreative. The story is minimal and feels ultimately pointless this far in. And with the over simplification of the current expansions changes to player skills and talents, there is nothing to look forward to for the next level. You don't get another talent point to spend. There is just 3 specs per class, with like 6 talent milestones with 3 options each, one of which you can select per tier. And most of them are boring and don't add much flavor.

I think MOST of what is holding WoW together at this point is habbit, lack of alternatives, and the friendships people have developed with other people in the game.

And my biggest problem with Blizzard aside from the over simplification of class talent system, is they respond SO FUCKING SLOW to problems. They release new content SO FUCKING SLOW leaving you to get burnt out on what currently exists. And then said content is often more of the same. MORE DAILY QUESTS YAY. More villains we never heard of until they were tossed in to the latest patch, so we have no idea of their story or point. They fix bugs SO FUCKING SLOW. They add in sorely needed features SO FUCKING SLOW.

And when they do add new content, it has so many dumb choices it's infuriating. Like the recent release, for example, requires a average item level so high that the pathetic rewards for doing the freaking content is largely unneeded. It would have been smart to make the new stuff available to lower geared level 90 players SO THERE IS A REASON TO DO THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. By the time you can get the crap from the rep vendors, you don't need it.

I could complain all day but there are my top issues. I get the feeling they funnel off WoW revenue too heavily to other projects/payroll of the head honchos, instead of back into the game that is earning it for them.
 

Cid Silverwing

Paladin of The Light
Jul 27, 2008
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Fucking. Retarded.

He's basically crying about being unable to clone WoW's success with his own product, ripoff or not.

Fucking stop it already. CLONES are killing genres, NOT the originals.

Somewhat related is the fact that what's killing WoW in turn is actually the in-game achievement and gearscore whores. Two biggest reasons I permanently ragequit WoW like 2 years ago.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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shadowmagus said:
Yarrow said:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then ***** of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.
As a regular MMO player, I can tell you that this is exactly what they do. They have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to get to endgame and they HAVE to get that awesome gear that they blow through the main quest as fast as possible, going so far as to get a friend or guild to run them through on their first character. It completely kills the idea of what an MMO is supposed to be about, but this normally brings in the "I paid my money, so I can play how I want" crowd, never realizing they are missing the point of the whole thing.
Playing the FFXIV Beta on PS3 this weekend and yes, you are correct.

There were many people asking about the location of (and using) an NPC that ups your level automatically to 15 somehow. I didn't use it myself (and just hit level 15 through natural gameplay). In the starting city (for my character type {Miqo'te Pugilist} anyhow) sometimes you just see messages like this:

Player X has reached level 8
Player X has reached level 9
Player X has reached level 10
Player X has reached level 11
Player X has reached level 12
Player X has reached level 13
Player X has reached level 14
Player X has reached level 15

Which basically means they've just skipped hours of content for the sake of the endgame - made worse cause this is a beta in which character data will be wiped soon. Sad.

On another note: this also smells of the crybabies who want an easy mode for Dark Souls - so they can, you know, access all the content with ease...
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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a couple of posters have made comments that only highlight they have no clue who Mark Kern is or what Firefall is tbh...

Firefall is nothing like WoW and Kern ? Kern was THE LEAD DEVELOPER ON WoW and is clearly very much not "an idiot" as one poster ignorantly called him.
 

leviathanmisha

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Jun 21, 2009
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I smell a rat all over this interview.

What's so wrong with making a (sub-)genre accessible to more than guys living in their parent's basement?

I recently climbed aboard the WoW ship after beating Oblivion again, not wanting to pick up Skyrim again (I'm not allowed to call it by my name on here I don't think), and finally coming to terms with the fact that Perfect World is never going to make a PWI client for the Mac and I have to say, it's exactly what I expected. I'm leveling about as quick as I would in PWI and I know at some point, it's going to turn into grinding, but that's what happens in all MMO's at some point.

Really, all I see in this interview is someone complaining that a 14 year old can pick up WoW and be just as good as the 40 year old in their parent's basement who has dedicated his life to it. And to be honest, that's nothing to complain about. If anything, that's how video games grow and become better.
 

Do4600

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Kern says that this leads to fatigue from both players and developers, which is causing the genre to stagnate. Players don't want to play another "WoW clone" but developers are afraid of deviating from the formula that WoW has ironically made players interested in the MMO genre in the first place.
Also see every genre since 2007 and why the games I'm the most excited by are all crowd sourced independently developed games like 7 Days to Die and Star Citizen.
 

AgedGrunt

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saintdane05 said:
Yeah! How DARE people try to get into and enjoy a game! How DARE THEY!
Sarcasm or not, it is a marketing issue. Games are a lot like movies in that fans tend to enjoy familiarity. That's why Hollywood clings to iconic IP and why "leveling" is in everything now, even racing games.

Farmville never got popular for being an awesome game, it created addicts who got hooked on a simple reward system. Click water can, click soil, watch your reward sprout up. MMOs are, under the hood, designed to produce the same feelings and keep players rewarded and happy. There is literally established theory in creating addiction and developers understand it.

Personally I agree with the write-up, only I can't lay the blame at WoW's feet. Developers may need to emulate in order to keep players interested, but there's no excuse not to evolve. Guild Wars 2 had one of the most inspiring and perfect opportunities to do this, yet ArenaNet took so much of what made the last game unique and brilliant yet deviated, borrowed too much from the standard MMO. It's still great, but could have redefined the genre.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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For me personally, the OP is spot on.

I think part of the problem with MMOs is the community that has grown around the genre. When I played EQ1, everything felt so novel largely because people hadn't yet grasped the optimum play styles, groupings, and social structures for defeating all of the content. Now, everything is just spreadsheet. You read your gear and raid strats online, implement them through repetition, download mods to handle bosses, macro everything you possibly can...

And the devs have played right into it, too. Want to conquer a dungeon? Press a button to instantly queue. Want to travel somewhere? Walk through a portal. Want to find a quest objective? Check your map. Everything is handed to the player on a silver platter. There's no sense of world anymore because you teleport everywhere and instant queue everything. The quests are meaningless, trite, and legion. The challenge is nonexistent.

But more than anything, it's the competitive aspects of the genre that have turned me away. I'd love to explore a huge fantasy world with a handful of my friends, but you can't do that without running into people who play 24/7, shred all the content, and pretty much control the server. I'm not at all jealous of these people. I just wish I didn't have to play with them. I'd like a game that moves at my pace. That's why I play SP mostly these days.