Forza 3 Dev Throws A DLC Wrench Into Used Game Sales

[theultimateend]

Slightly Cheaper?

Want to get people to buy your game new more often? Make a quality game at a reasonable price. Yes I realize your game took 1 million dollars to make, but charging 60 bucks a pop means that you are less likely to get the 'experimental crowd' buying who make up a large part of the used market.

Data please. Thanks.

So wait...you want me to provide data that people less willing to spend money (at times 40-50% more if they are dealing with gamefly) on a new game and thus buy used exist? Ugh...I suppose I'd just point you to the ... I dunno... used gaming market.

I'm not even sure what other kind of people would be in the used market.

It's a good idea in theory, but I usually go for a better deal if given the option. I can't say if more people would got for the better deal other than extra content, but it's something to consider. It's still better than a pre-order bonus.

A more reasonable price would be a much better idea, but apparently suggesting that is blasphemy to publishers.

So true. I didn't think about that.

 

[hebdomad]

I'm a gamer who wants to support games. I want my money to go to the developer who makes the games... Second hand games are evil, so are publishers. Money grabbing middle men. It's all they are.

 

[Amnestic]

Slightly Cheaper?

Want to get people to buy your game new more often? Make a quality game at a reasonable price. Yes I realize your game took 1 million dollars to make, but charging 60 bucks a pop means that you are less likely to get the 'experimental crowd' buying who make up a large part of the used market.

Data please. Thanks.

So wait...you want me to provide data that people less willing to spend money (at times 40-50% more if they are dealing with gamefly) on a new game and thus buy used exist? Ugh...I suppose I'd just point you to the ... I dunno... used gaming market.

I'm not even sure what other kind of people would be in the used market.

Students, definitely. Pretty much every game purchase I've made bar one or two (which I buy new on release day) over the past two years has been Used simply because they're so much cheaper to pick up and I'm a poor, lazy student.

I'm a gamer who wants to support games. I want my money to go to the developer who makes the games... Second hand games are evil, so are publishers. Money grabbing middle men. It's all they are.

Then Digital Distribution is your friend, however that's not really got much to do with Used Game Sales.

 

[theultimateend]

Slightly Cheaper?

Want to get people to buy your game new more often? Make a quality game at a reasonable price. Yes I realize your game took 1 million dollars to make, but charging 60 bucks a pop means that you are less likely to get the 'experimental crowd' buying who make up a large part of the used market.

Data please. Thanks.

So wait...you want me to provide data that people less willing to spend money (at times 40-50% more if they are dealing with gamefly) on a new game and thus buy used exist? Ugh...I suppose I'd just point you to the ... I dunno... used gaming market.

I'm not even sure what other kind of people would be in the used market.

Students, definitely. Pretty much every game purchase I've made bar one or two (which I buy new on release day) over the past two years has been Used simply because they're so much cheaper to pick up and I'm a poor, lazy student.

I'm a gamer who wants to support games. I want my money to go to the developer who makes the games... Second hand games are evil, so are publishers. Money grabbing middle men. It's all they are.

Then Digital Distribution is your friend, however that's not really got much to do with Used Game Sales.

Well I'm under the same boat. I assumed that that fell under experimental folks.

I suppose I made too fancy a word for "folks who can't afford to blow 60 bucks all the time".

PS. I prefer to own my games indefinately. So digital distribution is rarely my friend these days.

unless we are talking about games from gog.

 

[Hamster at Dawn]

Gears of War 2 kinda already did this but I still like the idea. I approve of supporting game developers.

 

[manaman]

My PS3 blew up. Well burned up. What would have happened to me if I had already used my "one time redeemable code" to download the content and then the system decided to wanted a firey death? For that matter what would have happened if it was stolen, damaged, hard drive failure.

 

[Poopie McGhee]

GameSpots and Game Crazys
(It's "GameSTOP") (Sorry for that)...
OP: I like buying used games, and am glad that it's on a game that i'm not going to buy anyway...

 

[Amnestic]

My PS3 blew up. Well burned up. What would have happened to me if I had already used my "one time redeemable code" to download the content and then the system decided to wanted a firey death? For that matter what would have happened if it was stolen, damaged, hard drive failure.

They probably have an appeal system in place? I doubt the QA/PR teams for Forza's publishers would let this slip through without a backup system in place in case such a thing occured. After all, it's not as if console death is exactly unusual for current generation (4.2 Wii firmware, 3.0 PS3 firmware, Yellow Triangle of Death, Red Ring of Death, E74 error. The list goes on).

 

[Jandau]

I'm fascinated how the games industry thinks it should be exempt from the second-hand market. Like they are special and better than everyone else. You can buy used cars, used clothes, used books, used music CDs, used DVDs, used furniture, used pretty much everything...

But videogames? They are "special"! It hurts their profits too much! They are barely scraping along... [/sarcasm]

Seriously...

 

[GloatingSwine]

I'm fascinated how the games industry thinks it should be exempt from the second-hand market. Like they are special and better than everyone else. You can buy used cars, used clothes, used books, used music CDs, used DVDs, used furniture, used pretty much everything...

True, though most of those have significantly smaller and more specialist used markets than games. You generally don't walk into a music store and have both new and pre-owned albums in the same shop. Same with books, used bookstores are a specialist market.

Second hand games are not like this, there are some specialist second hand retailers, but most retailers sell new and used side by side.

I think this kind of incentive for new purchasers is the best way to handle the market, and even if I weren't already buying Forza 3 on launch day (Seriously, I've booked a week's holiday to play it) I would now, especially as I love classic cars in this type of game.

 

[TheRealCJ]

Right, so when I'm finished with a game I NO LONGER PLAY, I should just shove it on a shelf somewhere and never play it again.

Or... I could trade it in, and buy a new game for cheaper. Who cares?

 

[xMacx]

Right, so when I'm finished with a game I NO LONGER PLAY, I should just shove it on a shelf somewhere and never play it again.

Or... I could trade it in, and buy a new game for cheaper. Who cares?

People who work in the games industry care...a lot. Imagine you sell 4 million units of a game. 2 million are sold back, then sold to another consumer for $5 less. The devs who made the game..the publisher who backed it...see none of the 2 million units that are resold.

It hurts anyone who makes money making games.

 

[Zer_]

Right, so when I'm finished with a game I NO LONGER PLAY, I should just shove it on a shelf somewhere and never play it again.

Or... I could trade it in, and buy a new game for cheaper. Who cares?

People who work in the games industry care...a lot. Imagine you sell 4 million units of a game. 2 million are sold back, then sold to another consumer for $5 less. The devs who made the game..the publisher who backed it...see none of the 2 million units that are resold.

It hurts anyone who makes money making games.

Not necessarily, because the person who is reselling the game is probably going to use that money to buy new games anyways. As for the guy buying the used game, well he wasn't going to buy the game at the full retail price anyways.

 

[xMacx]

Slightly Cheaper?

Want to get people to buy your game new more often? Make a quality game at a reasonable price. Yes I realize your game took 1 million dollars to make, but charging 60 bucks a pop means that you are less likely to get the 'experimental crowd' buying who make up a large part of the used market.

Data please. Thanks.

So wait...you want me to provide data that people less willing to spend money (at times 40-50% more if they are dealing with gamefly) on a new game and thus buy used exist? Ugh...I suppose I'd just point you to the ... I dunno... used gaming market.

I'm not even sure what other kind of people would be in the used market.

Well I'm under the same boat. I assumed that that fell under experimental folks.

I suppose I made too fancy a word for "folks who can't afford to blow 60 bucks all the time".

To be clear, I was asking for data on the bolded part. Not that experimental gamers or broke students or cheap bastards exist (it's clear they do), but that they make up a large part of the used market.

Or to put it another way, if you have or have seen some kind of data like that, then you can make recommendations - if students make up the largest percentage of the used market, then maybe you offer digital deals or restricted copies for high school or college students. If it's cheap bastards, maybe you offer a free to play model or a mode designed to provide additional features as an incentive to pay more money.

Or to put it in another way, think deeper about what your saying - if it's your opinion about who makes up the used market, then it's not very useful. If you don't know, you don't know. And unless we know, simply making things cheaper won't work.

For example, say publishers say "F... it, we're going to screw gamestop and drop all our prices to $15." Gamestop responds by dropping their prices on used games to $10. I bet the same students you're talking about buy the $10 game. So how does your solution address the issue of the used game market?

Again, data if you've got it, or I'm going to guess you're way oversimplifying to support your point.

 

[xMacx]

Right, so when I'm finished with a game I NO LONGER PLAY, I should just shove it on a shelf somewhere and never play it again.

Or... I could trade it in, and buy a new game for cheaper. Who cares?

People who work in the games industry care...a lot. Imagine you sell 4 million units of a game. 2 million are sold back, then sold to another consumer for $5 less. The devs who made the game..the publisher who backed it...see none of the 2 million units that are resold.

It hurts anyone who makes money making games.

Not necessarily, because the person who is reselling the game is probably going to use that money to buy new games anyways. As for the guy buying the used game, well he wasn't going to buy the game at the full retail price anyways.

If the game is resold, then the publisher who could have sold a new copy to the next player who buys it always loses money. the only way the publisher doesn't lose money is if no one ever buys the resold version of the game.

I dig what you're saying - that if a game is resold but used to buy another game, then some publisher gets a portion of the resale money on another title. But the original seller always gets hurt.

think about it this way (example, numbers made up):

EA sells new game, makes $20
Player A sells back game to Gamestop
Player A buys new game from Ubisoft, Ubisoft makes $20
Player B buys used EA game, Gamestop makes $15

So the split of the pie goes:
EA: 20 out of 40 possible
Ubisoft: 20
Gamestop: 15

EA just lost out on $20.


Consider your version:
EA sells new game, makes $20
Player A sells back game to Gamestop
Player A buys new game from EA, EA makes $20
Player B buys used EA game, Gamestop makes $15

So the split of the pie goes:
EA: 40 out of 60 possible
Gamestop: 15

EA still loses out on $20.


The only way your scenario works is if:

EA sells new game, makes $20
Player A sells back game to Gamestop
Player B never buys used EA game from gamestop. Ever.

EA makes the same money, because no one ever buys a used copy of the game.






So the only way that scenario works out is if a game is never resold. If a game is resold and someone else buys it, the publisher always loses out on a customer.

 

[TheRealCJ]

Right, so when I'm finished with a game I NO LONGER PLAY, I should just shove it on a shelf somewhere and never play it again.

Or... I could trade it in, and buy a new game for cheaper. Who cares?

People who work in the games industry care...a lot. Imagine you sell 4 million units of a game. 2 million are sold back, then sold to another consumer for $5 less. The devs who made the game..the publisher who backed it...see none of the 2 million units that are resold.

It hurts anyone who makes money making games.

So does used books, cars, furniture, hell, anything that can be traded second-hand.

that argument is, simply put, unfeasable. Once the game is bought once, why should we be forced to pay for it again? It's like EA and it's '3 install' DRM policy that they tried not long ago.

They're really just trying to dollar-and-cent us into paying full price for games. Another EA example: Spore. They came out with the game, less than two months after, they came out with creature packs. Not even expansion packs that include more story, just bits of animation that you had to pay (in Australia, at least) the same price as the FULL GAME.

If I got sick of spore, and wanted to get another game, why should I be punished by not being able to get back at least some money from the TWO full priced games I bought?

Once a game is bought, that's it. The Developer already has the money, who cares if someone sells it again? Why should DLC, which is free anyway, be restricted to those who originally bought the game.

Here's another scenario: My Live or Steam account, for whatever reason, becomes unusable, I bought a game like Forza 3 for full price, first-hand, but the original live account I registered it with I can no longer use. I will lose my DLC because I'm playing the game 'second-hand'.

One of the major advantages (in the past) of Consoles over PCs was the fact that there was less DRM - you didn't need to provide a key to play it, or only install it on one computer, if your mate wanted to play - or even buy - a game from you, all he had to do was have a compatible system. But now you need accounts, internet connections, and more, to play a game on an expensive system that runs that game exclusively. Hell, companies are even discluding off-line multiplayer so gamers who want to play with their freinds have to buy 2 systems, 2 games.

And besides, now that games are getting more-and-more PAID DLCs, wouldn't it make sense to keep the games in circulation? If I bought Fallout 3 right now in the shops brand new, it would cost me 105 Australian Dollars. However, if I bought that same game for 50 dollars pre-owned, I might just consider immediately downloading The Pitt, or Operation Anchorage for an addional 20 dollars. Bam, Bethesda have just made the money off the original game from the original buyer, plus whatever DLCs he got, plus whatever DLCs I got.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

What I'm trying to say is, once the game is sold originally, it's out of the developers hands, They should have nothing more to do with it. If I buy a second-hand car, I don't want to have the airbags missing because the money I spend isn't going to Toyota.

 

[GamingAwesome1]

When I first read the title I thought they were going to do some huge ***** move that would totally screw over a lot of people.

But nope, it's just a plain simple little incentive for people to buy a new copy instead of those asses running the pre-owned boxes.

Not that I care I hate Forza.

 

[theultimateend]

Slightly Cheaper?

Want to get people to buy your game new more often? Make a quality game at a reasonable price. Yes I realize your game took 1 million dollars to make, but charging 60 bucks a pop means that you are less likely to get the 'experimental crowd' buying who make up a large part of the used market.

Data please. Thanks.

So wait...you want me to provide data that people less willing to spend money (at times 40-50% more if they are dealing with gamefly) on a new game and thus buy used exist? Ugh...I suppose I'd just point you to the ... I dunno... used gaming market.

I'm not even sure what other kind of people would be in the used market.

Well I'm under the same boat. I assumed that that fell under experimental folks.

I suppose I made too fancy a word for "folks who can't afford to blow 60 bucks all the time".

To be clear, I was asking for data on the bolded part. Not that experimental gamers or broke students or cheap bastards exist (it's clear they do), but that they make up a large part of the used market.

Or to put it another way, if you have or have seen some kind of data like that, then you can make recommendations - if students make up the largest percentage of the used market, then maybe you offer digital deals or restricted copies for high school or college students. If it's cheap bastards, maybe you offer a free to play model or a mode designed to provide additional features as an incentive to pay more money.

Or to put it in another way, think deeper about what your saying - if it's your opinion about who makes up the used market, then it's not very useful. If you don't know, you don't know. And unless we know, simply making things cheaper won't work.

For example, say publishers say "F... it, we're going to screw gamestop and drop all our prices to $15." Gamestop responds by dropping their prices on used games to $10. I bet the same students you're talking about buy the $10 game. So how does your solution address the issue of the used game market?

Again, data if you've got it, or I'm going to guess you're way oversimplifying to support your point.

I'd go off on you for being kind of a prick but you did make some sensible points in there.

My point was simple, games are too expensive and that is why there is a used gaming market. I called people who buy games cheaper "experimental" because I figured it was a safe enough term to describe people who aren't sure they are going to get 60 bucks worth out of a game.

As it stands, I don't buy anything at gamefly, why? Because I use gamefly, it provides me with services at a cost Gamestop is unwilling to do. Does gamefly use any gimmicks to punish me for using the products it provides after someone else? Not at all.

As it stands, the problem I see is information in a different direction. Who is to say that a used gaming purchaser is going to buy a game new if they lose their used options? When yugioh stopped being a cost viable tcg for me I stopped buying it completely. When PC games started being more cost than value (the few I've been interested in, not as a whole mind you) I stopped buying them.

There is a mighty big assumption that people will pay whatever you price things at as long as they don't have any other options.

Games are a luxury, luxury items are not necessities, and thusly they cannot be priced in the same manner that necessities tend to be.

Someone mentioned that the DLC idea is better than preorder bonuses and I fully agree. Because all preorder bonuses seem to do is fluff numbers, at least this still has to compete with bad word of mouth if it sucks.

As it stands, whenever a game is well made and nicely priced I (that cheap college graduate demographic) buy it. Playstation Network Games? I have bought quite a few. If I could sell them would I? Likely never, I have never in my life sold a game after I bought it, I have returned a really terrible one once though...after much objection from the staff member.

Everytime a bundle pack for a game comes out I see them fly off the shelves, now that is admittedly merely an observational point. However it is one that is constantly reaffirmed. People who weren't originally going to buy the game see the game at a new more reasonable price with some extra fluff to boot.

The thing about bundles is 99% of the time you can grab the stuff via DLC if you already owned the original non bundle. (Or it was just the other games or expansions you could have bought)

Basically if nicely priced setups don't actually sell, someone should inform the marketing team behind all of sony's 3 game PS2 packs that have been all the rage . *Points to his MGS 3 pack* Worth every penny.

TL;DR version, yes I don't have any documentation on my statements, albeit I don't see any to the contrary on your part either but alas it is not the duty of people to prove something doesn't exist (which is a view I support).

I wish Forza dev team the best, the more companies ignore change the more companies will fail.