Friends Zone (AKA why aren't we doing this?)
- Thread starter barbzilla
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Ah, yes, because rape *is* the answer. Why ask them out, or tolerate mere friendship, when I can DEMAND respect by throwing them down and having my way with them! I see now. Thank you, Arehexes, for showing us the way!Arehexes said:
I've got some advice for you, Arehexes: Advice should be a little more helpful than, "Shutcher faggoty little mouth and grow a pair!"
Confidence does not come from being told to man up. Respect does not come from demanding it. Bad feelings do not go away just because we wish they would.
Some of us get so lost, the very idea that we could ever be happy seems absurd. You don't find your way back from that kind of attitude just because someone tells you to stop whining.
Doc, you and I have the same problem. We lack confidence because we don't love ourselves. It may be the corniest thing I've ever said but that doesn't make it a lie: no one will love you until you love yourself.Doclector said:
Right now, you are acting like road kill. You're hurt and you think you're all done. You feel squashed and dead, like there's nothing left except to lie there and wait for the crows to come pick you away bit by bit.
This attitude isn't attractive in the slightest. Women can sense it from a mile away. They know how you feel before you do.
Try to stop thinking about how much it hurts, or how much you NEED to be loved. Whatever women want -- I don't claim to know exactly what that is, it's different for each one -- I'm pretty confident most of them do not want a bottomless pit of pain and need they have to keep trying to fill up.
The very fact that you are still alive to feel the hurt means you are NOT all done. You haven't been killed, only hurt. It'll happen again. Only way to stop it is to die, and that's not really a solution.
Concentrate on something good. If they're willing to be friends at all, it means you aren't a total loss. It means you have something to start with, some crumb of a positive trait from which to build a base. If they think you're worth telling their problems to, then that's something. It might not seem like much -- and it won't be, in the beginning. But it's a start.
Take that little spark of self-esteem and blow on it. Try thinking of yourself as a trusted confidant with excellent empathy. Sounds better than road kill, does it not? Do things to make yourself more attractive: exercise, stop slouching, practice your smile, learn to banter.
Remember this companionship and affection you so desire will have its own set of needs. Trivializing those needs as a "problem dump" will get you exactly nowhere.
As a final note, do your best to ignore people like Arehexes. Their blustery crap can't help anyone.
That's the best thing I've read on this site in at least two months.DigitalAtlas said:
No, THIS is the best thing I've read on this site in two months. Knowing there is even one woman in the world who actually thinks like this is enough to galvanize any right-thinking guy.Geekiest said:
One I didn't say rape you are, thanks for putting words in my mouth prick. I was saying if they don't want to even give you a chance then why bother, don't be their lap dog who is a friend when you want more. Just drop that "friend" and move on since people are better then that.Johnny Impact said:
Two sometimes you gotta show that your not some wuss who will just life push him around.
And for your advice you gave me, yes that does work for some people because if your are going to sit and say "well I wish things go my way" or "I should just give up since nothing works" then you have to man up. And you know what I have friends tell me the same damn thing I said and they are right. People can sit there and listen and talk and try to help but if your not willing to help yourself then why should they help you. It all boils down on you.
And I wanna point this out
That was me in high school since I was more or less mocked and made fun of by most of my school since I wasn't "black" (i.e. like the same things other people at my school liked). Or my asking out girls and getting stood up or reject through a lie. So yeah I was there and you know what I did what my advice yes, I manned the hell up and got over it. I got sick and tired of being depressed and I was sick of feeling bad for myself. Once I god out of high school I changed and you know what, I'm much better off. So yeah piss off for acting like "manning up" doesn't work for people. And yeah I got respect from my peers because I don't take crap from them and I showed them my skills and worth as a person in my major. So again you can just piss off prick. I don't need to feel bad for myself because I know that I have the respect of my family and friends and I respect them back.
Woah.The Jackal said:
I gotta say, those were quite eye-opening.
Thanks.
People seem to be very closed and desperate when it comes to romance, attraction and dating. It's like those feelings are too sacred and scary to be discussed. Yes, such feelings can be very powerful, but it's always better to be open instead of let tension brew underneath all of the smiles. You can't run from them and hope everything will come to you smoothly. You have to approach them head on with a straight head and an open heart.
People like you, who are brimming over with confidence, who reduce everything to very simple terms, simply rub me the wrong way. You always have.Arehexes said:
Maybe it's because I'm detail-oriented. I can see all the ways in which a thing can go wrong. I'm a critic. I find flaws. I don't consider that a defect, I consider it a useful skill. But, as a result, great confidence always seems somewhat foolish to me.
Maybe it's because the people who used to bully me did so with complete confidence. There was never any doubt in their minds that I was there for their amusement. I was a hole in which they could dump their own frustrations. They could do whatever they wanted, it was their right. It was that simple. Absolute, insufferable confidence.
Enough self-analysis. I should not judge you for having a different attitude from mine, nor by the actions of others.
I apologize.
Okay. Discussion.
First, what I meant by the rape comment: The only way to demand another person's attention -- actually, undeniably demand it -- is with physical assault. You said man up, grab what you want, demand what you think you're owed. That's a dangerous way to talk to someone as frustrated as that guy. Guys like him can bottle everything up for ever and ever, becoming pressure cookers of internalized rage and sick need. If it's not allowed to bleed off slowly, it might all come out at once. You tell him to demand respect, you might end up with a result you really did not intend. It's why pushy football players aren't the only rapists or murderers. Sometimes it's the quiet, mousy-looking guy down the street, who nobody figured would ever hurt a fly.
If you have recovered from depression, as you claim, you know there's a bit more to it than simply getting tired of the way you feel. If that's all that happened to bring you out of it -- you got tired of feeling bad -- then you are either lucky or didn't have a serious problem. Is that your argument, that he doesn't have a problem? He sure as hell thinks he has one. His perception might be creating the problem but the problem still exists. It's just a problem of perception rather than fact. You see a man stuck in a cell of his own construction and all you can do is rattle the bars and yell at him, "Fuck you, there is no cell!" I see that same man and I look for something that might be a key.
There's more to a man than just confidence. I said confidence and respect do not come on demand and I stand by that. I said bad feelings do not go away by wishing and I stand by that.
I disagree not with the gist of your argument but with your statement for how to get there. I can't help but feel that "manning up" has more negative connotations than positive ones. It seems more like picking a fight instead of talking things out, or developing a shell of arrogance to cover pain and insecurity which are, in fact, still present. You make it sound like a quick fix. It isn't. It sounds misleading when stated so simply. It would be a disservice to this guy to tell him it's easy, or simple, or quick.
When building a house, one does not start with the living room, the comfy place one will spend the most time in later. One starts with the foundations. Confidence comes in small positive steps. "Today I changed the brake pads on my car for the first time." Now you know there's a thing you can do that not everyone can. "Today when I was in line at Starbuck's a woman smiled at me, and it wasn't just out of courtesy." Another brick of confidence to build your home with. It takes many bricks but you get there eventually.
Once you've established some confidence, respect follows. People see the house you're building and they like it.
It sounded to me like he doesn't know how to take that first step. All he can see is what's wrong. He's throwing the bricks away because he doesn't think he'll ever have enough. And as long as he keeps throwing them away, he WILL never have enough. I'm trying to get him to keep just one brick, to get him started.
Am I making sense?
Upon deeper consideration I suppose your method is as valid as mine. No offense but I doubt either one of us helped him at all. He's going to have to help himself. (You reading this, bud? No one can help you. Sorry, that's the breaks.)
Now that I look back, I see both of us suggested positive thinking was the answer.
So again, I'm sorry. I'm bigger than childish bullshit and if I'm not I should be.
tl;dr I don't understand women or the concept of sexual attraction.barbzilla said:
This post makes me so angry I don't want to risk getting reported and my response has probably already been replicated in this thread. But yeah, stop being so freakin' pretentious when talking to women about something that doesn't exist
Wow. Thanks. I try for logic-centric, clearly delineated, consequence-based decision making. Been trying to proselytize all my girl friends into that kind of behavior as well, with mixed results, but the ones I've made the most progress with are both doing really well in the relationship department(one with a good long-term relationship, and another learning to dodge the bad short-term ones). If there're women you know who need a dose of that and are willing I'm always good with spreading my philosophies.Johnny Impact said:
Here's to hoping some day I find I guy who can appreciate it.
The Friend Zone is what happens when a man or a woman isn't upfront with the person they have feelings for because they're afraid of rejection.
I'm not saying it's impossible for friendship to develop into a romantic relationship, but every girl I've ever dated began with me going up to her and making things clear from the start. Every friendzone I've ended up in began with me trying to get to know a girl first and be the nice guy. I was friends with a girl for four years of my life despite hardly ever spending time a girl. Doesn't work, in my experience.
Girls who's first impression of a guy is "nice guy friend" have a hard time reconciling their image of him when he comes out and say that their several year long friendship was all just a front to get near her. It's creepy.
As for my experience. I chased after one girl for most of my time through high school. I dated a few girls, but was never really happy with them. I wanted this one girl, and we were friends. I finally opened up, and she says she thinks of me as a friend. Shit sucked, but that was my fault for waiting. Years later, I don't know what I was thinking. She's getting fat. She's a mean, spiteful, and lazy. The only thing going for her is her looks. I was a fool. I let down far better girls.
Another time in college, I did it again. We ended up going on a date for my military ball, and the night before I let it slip how I felt directly. Made sense at the time, because why the Hell else would she agree to go out with me? Nope, just friends. The night turned out really awkwardly for both of us. We haven't really talked sense.
There was this one girl who was always my friend through High School. Even though I hardly talked to her, she always wanted to talk with me. I found out after I graduated she had a massive crush on me from her friend, but never had the nerve to talk to me. To give you an idea how oblivious I was, we even joked about having sex with each other. I told I thought it would be weird because we're friends. I was a complete idiot.
The girl I'm dating now, I just walked up to her in the coffee shop, said, "Hi, I'm Irvine." Sat down, and we talked for a couple hours. Mostly about how she liked to program computers. End of the day, I had her phone number.
I'm not saying it's impossible for friendship to develop into a romantic relationship, but every girl I've ever dated began with me going up to her and making things clear from the start. Every friendzone I've ended up in began with me trying to get to know a girl first and be the nice guy. I was friends with a girl for four years of my life despite hardly ever spending time a girl. Doesn't work, in my experience.
Girls who's first impression of a guy is "nice guy friend" have a hard time reconciling their image of him when he comes out and say that their several year long friendship was all just a front to get near her. It's creepy.
As for my experience. I chased after one girl for most of my time through high school. I dated a few girls, but was never really happy with them. I wanted this one girl, and we were friends. I finally opened up, and she says she thinks of me as a friend. Shit sucked, but that was my fault for waiting. Years later, I don't know what I was thinking. She's getting fat. She's a mean, spiteful, and lazy. The only thing going for her is her looks. I was a fool. I let down far better girls.
Another time in college, I did it again. We ended up going on a date for my military ball, and the night before I let it slip how I felt directly. Made sense at the time, because why the Hell else would she agree to go out with me? Nope, just friends. The night turned out really awkwardly for both of us. We haven't really talked sense.
There was this one girl who was always my friend through High School. Even though I hardly talked to her, she always wanted to talk with me. I found out after I graduated she had a massive crush on me from her friend, but never had the nerve to talk to me. To give you an idea how oblivious I was, we even joked about having sex with each other. I told I thought it would be weird because we're friends. I was a complete idiot.
The girl I'm dating now, I just walked up to her in the coffee shop, said, "Hi, I'm Irvine." Sat down, and we talked for a couple hours. Mostly about how she liked to program computers. End of the day, I had her phone number.
I hate the friend zone when girls still talk about their sexual experiences and how can you help them please their man better. Or when they ***** about how this guy treats them like shit. After they you there for them longer then the current BF. Guys don't like getting played with like women don't like it.
I can say having friends when you can talk about anything too is good. Yet it isn't fair to them when they're sexually attracted to the other party and the other one knows about it. Either make it extremely clear that you don't want any intimate interaction and they're only a friend. Or at lease give them their one wish to be closer to you, a one night stand, date, something so they don't feel like they're hanging on a line. Not letting them know anything and stringing them along hurts them more then you really know. You either need to make it very clear when somebody states they have feeling for you and they're a good person that you want to keep things simple or try to take it to another level.
I can say having friends when you can talk about anything too is good. Yet it isn't fair to them when they're sexually attracted to the other party and the other one knows about it. Either make it extremely clear that you don't want any intimate interaction and they're only a friend. Or at lease give them their one wish to be closer to you, a one night stand, date, something so they don't feel like they're hanging on a line. Not letting them know anything and stringing them along hurts them more then you really know. You either need to make it very clear when somebody states they have feeling for you and they're a good person that you want to keep things simple or try to take it to another level.
Sorry, I find blaming women a little harsh.
I've had plenty of guys put me in the friend zone. "Wah, I can't find a girl who shares my enthusiasm for my hobbies!"
I play the games they do, enjoy the sports they do, like the same foods as they do but I get put in the friend zone because I'm "one of the guys"
I've had plenty of guys put me in the friend zone. "Wah, I can't find a girl who shares my enthusiasm for my hobbies!"
I play the games they do, enjoy the sports they do, like the same foods as they do but I get put in the friend zone because I'm "one of the guys"
Quite a varied responce to this thread. To those interested and who have not already seen it, the follow up to this thread is
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.302782-Man-Up-AKA-How-to-be-yourself
I am not going to bother multi quoting, but I would like to point out to a few people that they should read the full thread before responding to the OP. Often there are further qualifiers that are revealed further down the line. I suppose I could take the effort to EDIT my first post, but that just seems like work and I am working on my follow up to the Man Up thread.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.302782-Man-Up-AKA-How-to-be-yourself
I am not going to bother multi quoting, but I would like to point out to a few people that they should read the full thread before responding to the OP. Often there are further qualifiers that are revealed further down the line. I suppose I could take the effort to EDIT my first post, but that just seems like work and I am working on my follow up to the Man Up thread.
