Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Hawki]

That they aren't grimdark and backwards enough for 40k (some of the creators even mentioned this when they came out). And once they came out they appeared everywhere for a minor race isolated in the middle of nowhere.

None of which is a retcon.

On those specific complaints, I understand them, though don't agree with them. To said points:

-The tau do stand out in regards to the other (playable) races, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The tau are the new kids on the block, while every other race's history goes way back, and bar some exceptions, are arguably in a state of decline. The tau hold the role usually held by humans in sci-fi, and shows how the galaxy is a dynamic place. Obviously the tau seem out of place in a sense, and I do like how they became more sinister over time (which I like to think is due to them being 'hardened' by their experiences), but that's part of their charm, IMO.

-The tau being isolated isn't really an issue, since every other race can pretty much be anywhere - the Imperium and orks are spread throughout the galaxy, tyranids go where the food is, etc.

 

[Agema]

Also, read the points I made. I stated above that in-universe that there's not much that would stop female Space Marines from being created, that's not why I think female Space Marines would be, to quote, "iffy." I mean, there's countless fictional organizations that are all one gender (be it male or female), and if people want the writer(s) to change that, there should be a good reason.

Yes, there's no internal consistency reason to not have female space marines. So what is the reason? Mumble mumble "lore" mumble. In a universe such as 40k, this is tantamount to not being a reason.

When we get to the real reason, it's that the development of 40K lore has been driven by commercial imperatives. When they first made space marines, customers wouldn't buy the female space marines so they stopped making them, so when the lore developed later female marines were omitted. They made a load of stuff for the Squats, but they didn't sell well enough so they just cleared the drawing board by annihilating them. New aliens appeared because novelty creates sales, stops it getting stale. There is no "story" to be true to, everything is mutable as sales and PR require. If enough women gamers decide to start up 40K and wanted a female space marine chapter, they'd just make it happen, because the story needs to respond to their customer base. (Although I guess they could satisfactorily "halfway house" and announce the Adepta Sororitas now have gene engineering so they are directly equivalent to space marines, if separate.) The sole meaningful reason there aren't female space marines is lack of customer demand / public pressure.

Thus when you say "iffy", all you mean is from your own subjective sense of conservatism / traditionalism relating to 40K.

 

[Hawki]

Yes, there's no internal consistency reason to not have female space marines. So what is the reason? Mumble mumble "lore" mumble. In a universe such as 40k, this is tantamount to not being a reason.

Completely disagree. I've given my reasons. You're entitled to disagree with them, but "mumble mumble" isn't much of a counter-argument.

When we get to the real reason, it's that the development of 40K lore has been driven by commercial imperatives. When they first made space marines, customers wouldn't buy the female space marines so they stopped making them, so when the lore developed later female marines were omitted. They made a load of stuff for the Squats, but they didn't sell well enough so they just cleared the drawing board by annihilating them. New aliens appeared because novelty creates sales, stops it getting stale. There is no "story" to be true to, everything is mutable as sales and PR require.

A lot of that is true, but they're not the smackdowns you think they are. To address them:

-Commercial Imperatives: True. That's academic to in-universe consistency.

-Female Space Marine Omission: Also true. However, I want to point out a difference here, in that female Space Marines, as far as I'm aware, were confined to Rogue Trader, which was an era where there was little consistency, period. Space Marine lore has developed immensely since then, and in such a manner that having Space Marines now would be, as I said, "iffy," from both a plot and thematic standpoint.

-Squats: Except the squats were brought back, and while there were real-world reasons for elimating the squats, the difference is that the setting never denied that squats, at some point, existed, and in-universe reasons were provided for their absence. In contrast, there's never been a moment in any 40K lore that I'm aware of where anyone has even mentioned female Space Marines. Squats and female Space Marines have been handled very differently, so they aren't really equivalent.

-Yes, new aliens have appeared over time, often for commercial reasons. Again, this is irrelevant to the lore, because every playable alien race has a huge amount of backstory attached to it, and the setting is designed in such a manner that there's an infinite no. of alien races that could be playable, because it's well established that there's countless alien species in the galaxy, just that we don't get to play with all of them. This isn't the same as female Space Marines which are, to borrow a phrase, "conspicuous by absence." It would actually be easier to justify a new alien species than female Space Marines because you'd have to explain why no-one's even mentioned them up to this point.

-I wouldn't go so far to say that 40K doesn't have a story, but I do agree that it's setting-driven rather than plot-driven. And you're also right, the setting is mutable. It's been 'mutated' before. I agree. What we seem to disagree on is how benign that is. I mean, for instance, if Games Workshop said today that the orks had secretly been mind controlled by some outside force all this time and were really peace-loving souls who actually detested violence, I don't think it would be out of place for me to say "well that's fucking stupid." Any setting is mutable, that doesn't mean it's good writing/worldbuilding to change/add/remove things on a whim without the proper thought attached. You can see my earlier thoughts on the necrons on what I consider a bad 'mutation,' and how it could have been handled better.

If enough women gamers decide to start up 40K and wanted a female space marine chapter, they'd just make it happen, because the story needs to respond to their customer base. (Although I guess they could satisfactorily "halfway house" and announce the Adepta Sororitas now have gene engineering so they are directly equivalent to space marines, if separate.) The sole meaningful reason there aren't female space marines is lack of customer demand / public pressure.

All true. However, my point still stands. GW could announce female Space Marines today based on customer demand. They could do anything based on customer demand. That doesn't make it a good thing to do from an artistic standpoint.

This isn't even that new to 40K. I've seen people accuse the tau of "pandering" to anime fans for instance, which is part of why some people think they're out of place. My personal views on the tau aside, if that was indeed the sole reason to do so, it's a pretty shoddy one.

Thus when you say "iffy", all you mean is from your own subjective sense of conservatism / traditionalism relating to 40K.

And your view is less subjective because...?

I mean, sure, every reason I've given why I don't think female Space Marines are a good idea is subjective. Pretty much everything written on the subject by everyone here has been subjective. But the reasons you've given basically boil down to:

1: The lore is mutable.

2: Games Workshop will adjust things based on profit.

Both of which are true, but they aren't good reasons from an artistic standpoint. You could apply the same logic to every fictional setting, but, well, if someone started requesting male Bene Gesserit or Aes Sedai for instance, my first reaction would be "go home, you're drunk."

 

[Agema]

-Commercial Imperatives: True. That's academic to in-universe consistency.

If you want to argue that GW suddenly tries to claim that chapters had female space marines all along, it's just none of them ever appeared in any history or stories, sure that's difficult. But they have credible ways to innovate round that and maintain consistency. The simplest is that given they just made primaris marines, precedent exists that someone can develop new genetic engineering. So apply that to women, now there are female space marines. Done.

Something slightly more ambitious and likely to rankle - albeit still reasonable: 40K also has precedent that lots of history is hazy, lost (even banned). So maybe the emperor also had a female primarch program that never got to release running after the main primarch program, and was lost/forgotten with the emperor's quasi-death. Someone comes across it, finds it's good to go when someone presses the big green button so now there can be female space marines. Done.

There is no convincing "consistency" or "lore" argument against this sort of narrative development.

1: The lore is mutable.

Yes, it's a narrative in development. And as per the above, it is laughably easy to narratively develop female space marines in a manner consistent with the existing lore.

Both of which are true, but they aren't good reasons from an artistic standpoint. You could apply the same logic to every fictional setting, but, well, if someone started requesting male Bene Gesserit or Aes Sedai for instance, my first reaction would be "go home, you're drunk."

But there are male mages, aren't there? The Aes Sedai exist as a college for mages who are all women because the men go insane and have to be put down. Yes, it makes no sense - within the limits of the closed narrative that is WoT - for there to be male Aes Sedai. But one could imagine a theoretical century hence from the source being cleansed, when RJ's estate flog the IP for spin-off lit, Tar Valon trains men and women alike, so there are actual or de facto male "Aes Sedai". Why not?

Your argument amounts to that it is fundamentally problematic for genetically engineered women to exist and fight for the Imperium in powered armour and organised into chapters in any sense. What is the response to that other than... "Whuh?" You may as well be someone in the 1960s arguing women will never be jet pilots or astronauts.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If you want to argue that GW suddenly tries to claim that chapters had female space marines all along, it's just none of them ever appeared in any history or stories, sure that's difficult. But they have credible ways to innovate round that and maintain consistency. The simplest is that given they just made primaris marines, precedent exists that someone can develop new genetic engineering. So apply that to women, now there are female space marines. Done.

Something slightly more ambitious and likely to rankle - albeit still reasonable: 40K also has precedent that lots of history is hazy, lost (even banned). So maybe the emperor also had a female primarch program that never got to release running after the main primarch program, and was lost/forgotten with the emperor's quasi-death. Someone comes across it, finds it's good to go when someone presses the big green button so now there can be female space marines. Done.

There is no convincing "consistency" or "lore" argument against this sort of narrative development.

Oh, I know, the second and eleventh primarchs were female, which wasn't what the Emperor wanted (or wanted people to know about), and that's why they were removed from the records, or sent out to fight the nids in their own galaxy and have just popped back to stock up on the stuff that's been built since then.

If they want to keep Space Wolves all male, but introduce the Space Jackals who are all female...maybe?

 

[Agema]

Oh, I know, the second and eleventh primarchs were female, which wasn't what the Emperor wanted (or wanted people to know about), and that's why they were removed from the records, or sent out to fight the nids in their own galaxy and have just popped back to stock up on the stuff that's been built since then.

Maybe. It could be tricky as some novels imply that they were around long enough to create legions, but that there was some major disgrace or fall into degeneracy such that the emperor ordered those primarchs and their chapters to be exterminated. Plus, that they were also male. On the other hand, GW explicitly said they left two open so players could make their own chapters, although this later became unnecessary when they expanded from the original 18 (/20).

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I mean, if you want female SM, whether individuals, whole chapters, or even legions, loyalist or traitor, it's as easy as saying "Slaanesh moves in mysterious ways". Though yes, Cawl coming up with female loyalist SM is the most straightforward and it's not at all hard to sell the idea that the current metaplot requires a larger recruitment pool. You know, except to the grognards who never want female SM and only ever bring up the daemonculaba as a joke against it.

 

[Trunkage]

Um, yes? Games Workshop made a product, people bought the product, the product was adjusted, etc. Not seeing the problem here.

I mean, I like MLP, even though I'm not the target audience in either age or gender. I've never insisted that the setting change to suit my tastes, or any other one. I mean, for instance, why is it that every alicorn has been a female? Don't particuarly care, don't see it as a problem, don't think there's anything that prevents male alicorns from existing, but it's a non-issue. I mean, I've written plenty of stuff for both settings (and others) on FFN, and that's a far more creative outlet than whining that things change in settings with supersoldiers and talking equines for "reasons."

If there was a male alicorn introduced in a reboot, would you be offended?

 

[Gordon_4]

I mean, if you want female SM, whether individuals, whole chapters, or even legions, loyalist or traitor, it's as easy as saying "Slaanesh moves in mysterious ways". Though yes, Cawl coming up with female loyalist SM is the most straightforward and it's not at all hard to sell the idea that the current metaplot requires a larger recruitment pool. You know, except to the grognards who never want female SM and only ever bring up the daemonculaba as a joke against it.

I always thought the easiest way to get female Astartes would be to have the Adeptus Sororitas track down a true born daughter of the Emperor (like the Sensei) and use her as the Geneseed to create them.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I always thought the easiest way to get female Astartes would be to have the Adeptus Sororitas track down a true born daughter of the Emperor (like the Sensei) and use her as the Geneseed to create them.

Not quite since while the primarchs are based on the Emperor's DNA, they're still augmented through technosorcery and by more recent lore, possibly by warpstuff. Merely being a child of the Emperor isn't enough to make a primarch/astartes.

 

[Gordon_4]

Not quite since while the primarchs are based on the Emperor's DNA, they're still augmented through technosorcery and by more recent lore, possibly by warpstuff. Merely being a child of the Emperor isn't enough to make a primarch/astartes.

Still, its a strong enough base to start from. Nothing to stop the applications of heretical mad science later in the process.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

 

[Hawki]

If you want to argue that GW suddenly tries to claim that chapters had female space marines all along, it's just none of them ever appeared in any history or stories, sure that's difficult. But they have credible ways to innovate round that and maintain consistency. The simplest is that given they just made primaris marines, precedent exists that someone can develop new genetic engineering. So apply that to women, now there are female space marines. Done.

I've already pointed out the Primaris marines. I think they're silly for numerous reasons, among which is the conceit that they were there all along. But that's also part of my point. If there was a time to introduce female Marines, the Primaris marines would have been the time to do so. If you want to reveal Primaris Marines, AND female Marines, you're effectively double-dipping into big reveals.

Something slightly more ambitious and likely to rankle - albeit still reasonable: 40K also has precedent that lots of history is hazy, lost (even banned). So maybe the emperor also had a female primarch program that never got to release running after the main primarch program, and was lost/forgotten with the emperor's quasi-death. Someone comes across it, finds it's good to go when someone presses the big green button so now there can be female space marines. Done.

That could work. I think there's overlap with Primaris marines, but it could work.

There is no convincing "consistency" or "lore" argument against this sort of narrative development.

Not those specific ones, no.

But there are male mages, aren't there? The Aes Sedai exist as a college for mages who are all women because the men go insane and have to be put down. Yes, it makes no sense - within the limits of the closed narrative that is WoT - for there to be male Aes Sedai. But one could imagine a theoretical century hence from the source being cleansed, when RJ's estate flog the IP for spin-off lit, Tar Valon trains men and women alike, so there are actual or de facto male "Aes Sedai". Why not?

Come on, you know what I meant. Male Aes Sedai in the Third Age is lorebreaking. You could set stories in the Second or Fourth Age and have male Aes Sedai, just as GW could have female Space Marines in "Warhammer 50K" without having to explain much.

Your argument amounts to that it is fundamentally problematic for genetically engineered women to exist and fight for the Imperium in powered armour and organised into chapters in any sense. What is the response to that other than... "Whuh?" You may as well be someone in the 1960s arguing women will never be jet pilots or astronauts.

No, that isn't my argument. There's no hard rule that I'm aware of that prevents genetic engineering on women in the setting. Since you insist on strawmanning it, here's why I think female Space Marines are iffy:

-Space Marines have been male up to this point. You have the original twenty legions, you have over 1000 subsequent chapters, all of whom have been male. Female Marines or any kind are a massive deviation from the status quo that would have to be accounted for.

-The Imperium has a symmetry with its forces - you have one all-male faction (Space Marines), one all female faction (Sisters of Battle), and everything else being mixed.

-That the Space Marines have been male up to this point has been worked into elements such as motif and theme. Male godlike being, worshipped by all-male order - father, son, worship, deification, etc. There's a parallel to the Sisters, in that all their saints are female.

-The Imperium is notorious against change, so if you want to have such a shift in the status quo, you have to do the legwork. If anything, I'll give the Primaris marines this, the fact that they were created ages ago rather than something that came from advances in technology is something that fits the Imperium.

-There's also something I've noticed with the whole Space Marine debate, is that the reasons people often want female Space Marines is "just because," or "representation." I'd be more sympathetic to it if people cited story/lore aspects, and/or wanted male Sisters of Battle, but it rarely happens. You at least know the lore, so there's that, but it's the exception to the rule. Often people asking for female Space Marines come from outside the fanbase.

And sure, you're right, GW could make female Space Marines today for corporate reasons to get more people invested. Personally, I think that's silly (after Primaris marines, I'm so done with the "secret/uber Space Marine" trope...least the Legio Custodes are cool, if you're counting them), and I'd hope that they'd do their best to justify it, but meh.

If there was a male alicorn introduced in a reboot, would you be offended?

Um, no? Of course not.

I already said that there was no rules I was aware of that prevents male alicorns from existing. It's not a question of offence, it's a question of consistency. It would actually be easier to introduce male alicorns than female Space Marines given the differences in size and nature of lore. But if your starting point is "I want male alicorns because reasons," it's fairly eyebrow raising.

If anything, a reboot of any kind might irritate me more, since G5 is a continuation of G4, just set way after it, and while I'm mixed about that, that's another issue.

 

[Hawki]

Fury as publisher Verso calls women 'womb carriers' in tweet

Verso Books, which claims to be the largest independent radical publishing house in the English-speaking world, used the 'misogynistic' term in a series of 'degrading' tweets.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Even as a sperm incubator, this is pretty disgusting.

What's ironic is that "womb carrier" is probably the kind of degrading language the IHS would have used to justify its sterilizations.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Oh yes, this is great messaging right now.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh yes, this is great messaging right now.

And the GOP is just going to say "The Dems want to defund the police" anyway, so why bother? What vote is she picking up here?

 

[Trunkage]

And the GOP is just going to say "The Dems want to defund the police" anyway, so why bother? What vote is she picking up here?

The police unions are the biggest unions in the US. Like the NRA, they are a very small portion of the general populace but have a massive control of politics

Everyone knows what happens when you piss off either group

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The police unions are the biggest unions in the US. Like the NRA, they are a very small portion of the general populace but have a massive control of politics

Everyone knows what happens when you piss off either group

And the only way they're gonna vote for a Democrat is if the Democrat is a Republican, so again...

 

[Trunkage]

And the only way they're gonna vote for a Democrat is if the Democrat is a Republican, so again...

There is a difference between getting them to vote for you and getting them NOT to tank your nomination

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I hate them so very goddamned much