Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Agema]

The irony in this statement is that my compulsory intelligent design unit kind of WAS bush shaman lightning.

(Or more specifically the Rainbow Serpent.)

So, out of interest, what discipline was this intelligent design unit taught in and what was the remit?

There's also the general acknowledgement that science is self-correcting, unless you're referring to the so-called replication crisis that came into vogue not too long ago. There's plenty of beliefs in science that were once held to be true, and no longer aren't. Few would use the term "decolonize" for that.

I hate to break it to you, but there really is a replication crisis in some fields. Of course, one might argue the term "crisis" is open to interpretation, but let's just say that replicability of experiments in published literature appears to be a lot lower than many scientists are comfortable with.

Except usually that isn't what "decolonize science" usually refers to. And there's a broad spectrum from "teach scientific achievement from various cultures" (uncontroversial - certainly I learnt about them) to "the failed concept of linear time" (off the top of my head).

It's not about what decolonise science refers to, because that sentence is part of a separate issue, hence why it was moved to a separate paragraph. We do have a pretty good idea what decolonise science is about, people write about it plenty. I have, for the life of me, never seen any significant mention of the "failed concept of linear time" as part of it. In fact, I have no idea where you've sprung it from. If we can find zero to almost zero mention of it with relation to decolonise science, how do you think you can reasonably claim it's relevant and representative of decolonise science?

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

So, out of interest, what discipline was this intelligent design unit taught in and what was the remit?



I hate to break it to you, but there really is a replication crisis in some fields. Of course, one might argue the term "crisis" is open to interpretation, but let's just say that replicability of experiments in published literature appears to be a lot lower than many scientists are comfortable with.



It's not about what decolonise science refers to, because that sentence is part of a separate issue, hence why it was moved to a separate paragraph. We do have a pretty good idea what decolonise science is about, people write about it plenty. I have, for the life of me, never seen any significant mention of the "failed concept of linear time" as part of it. In fact, I have no idea where you've sprung it from. If we can find zero to almost zero mention of it with relation to decolonise science, how do you think you can reasonably claim it's relevant and representative of decolonise science?

The great Irony is the main replication crisis happened in Social Sciences and Psychology with a far smaller one in Neurology research which wasn't caught because it was a research niche where only 5 researchers in the world were doing research into it so it was rather reliant on the other 4 spotting it to even be known about. and yet the fields trying to use it as evidence for a problem in more core Stem are at best on the border of social science and at worst no-where near achieving the standards of research and or showing their work can be replicated and wasn't biased that even social science was. I'm talking fields that make claims about how people can't identify with anyone who doesn't look just like them who publish in journals like "The Feminist Journal of TV repair".

The failed concept of Linear Time is something from 'indigenous science' the thing a lot of the decolonise science lot seem to point to as some more pure decolonised version of science.

 

[Hawki]

So, out of interest, what discipline was this intelligent design unit taught in and what was the remit?

Subject was Earth Science. Not sure what you mean by remit - it wasn't a major part of the course if that's what you mean, just relevant enough that we had to spend a few lessons on it, and there was a question or two in the end of year exam.

It's not about what decolonise science refers to, because that sentence is part of a separate issue, hence why it was moved to a separate paragraph. We do have a pretty good idea what decolonise science is about, people write about it plenty. I have, for the life of me, never seen any significant mention of the "failed concept of linear time" as part of it. In fact, I have no idea where you've sprung it from. If we can find zero to almost zero mention of it with relation to decolonise science, how do you think you can reasonably claim it's relevant and representative of decolonise science?

To quote from the book After Australia, "Dates are based on the failed construct of linear time, which forms a dominant point of reference for the iteration of reality to which this message is addressed."*

What's ironic is that the message is coming from a starship, so I'm not sure how you're going to navigate space if linear time is a "failed construct." And while you can point to that as an example of fiction, it's fiction that resembles numerous ideas of cyclical time (e.g. the blog Welcome to Country), or "the tyranny of the clock" (to quote "Saint Andrewism"). These are generally on the fringe, but they're close cousins of the "decolonize science" movement, since they're usually presented in the context (e.g. the "decolonize light" symposium in Canada, or the idea that the Inuit could detect dark matter through intuition).

*I went over the text again, and, well, to quote a subsequent line, "Our crew is mainly Indigenous, because Indigenous minds are the most adept at understanding how to move gently through relationships. Without such knowledge, it is not possible to travel spacetime, because spacetime is relationships." I'm not stranger to kooky ideas in science fiction (take the Enderverse for instance and how philotes work), but it's played straight, and, well, remember the whole "humour is balanced by gravity?" Yeah...

This isn't an argument against TEK, but cripes...

 

[Agema]

To quote from the book After Australia, "Dates are based on the failed construct of linear time, which forms a dominant point of reference for the iteration of reality to which this message is addressed."

Okay, let's make this clear. That speculative fiction short story collection is pretty much nothing whatsoever to do with decolonising science.

The best you can really say is that decolonise science is an attempt to introduce more non-white elements into science, and that is a book that gives voice to non-white speculative fiction, so they have a sort of theme in common. And... that's it. An indigenous Australian fiction author's ideas about linear time are no more a demand for us to rethink physics than a Star Trek teleporter is. It is not "decolonising science", it's "decolonising science fiction literature".

Although, if I were to be totally fair, how we understand time is not necessarily what may be true. We perceive time in a certain way, which makes linear (Newtonian) ideas of time readily "make sense". However, ever since Einstein, there's a lot of reason to think our perception may be a form of illusion, and the reality of what time is quite different.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Welcome to Woke World where following the Cop26 conference Biden is doing the biggest ever selling of Oil drilling right

Climate groups slam Biden administration oil auction as 'hypocritical'

On the heels of the Glasgow Climate Conference, the Biden administration is preparing to hold an auction for drilling rights that's raised concerns among climate groups.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Trunkage]

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that's what I'm saying, but let's go over this.

First, everyone has biaises. It's all very well to say you should fight biaises, but not only can that go into overcorrection, but how can you fight something that you don't even know you have?

Second, what's actually lost by doing blind resumes? The name isn't important to any job I can think of. So instead of relying on individuals to fight biaises they may or may not have, you have a standardized procedure that removes the possibilty of bias altogether. Yes, this doesn't help you with the interview stage (where any number of things can work against you - physical appearance for instance), but it does help get your foot in the door.

Seriously, I don't know how this is objectionable.

You seem to be implying that biases magically go away when you hire someone. Which contradict you first statement

 

[Trunkage]

Welcome to Woke World where following the Cop26 conference Biden is doing the biggest ever selling of Oil drilling right

Climate groups slam Biden administration oil auction as 'hypocritical'

On the heels of the Glasgow Climate Conference, the Biden administration is preparing to hold an auction for drilling rights that's raised concerns among climate groups.

abcnews.go.com

I'm pretty sure most people can agree that Biden is an idiot

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

One from woke world that I knew was out there but I've not been able to pin down until now

Here's what you should know about babywearing and cultural appropriation - Today's Parent

Pregnancy, baby, toddler advice for Canadian parents

www.todaysparent.com

Companies using certain fabrics or designs for baby carriers is cultural appropriation because other groups used them even though in an increasingly global world the idea of something becoming globalised is more common rather than any groups owning things outright as such.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Another one which just highlights kind of how silly things are getting

DeSantis says vaccinated citizens without boosters could lose jobs - is it true?

The director of the CDC says the Biden administration has no plans to reclassify vaccinated people as unvaccinated if they don’t get boosters

www.independent.co.uk

Fauci suggests boosters may be required to be considered fully vaccinated

Several states are expanding eligibility for adults to get boosters even though federal agencies have not yet recommended the practice

www.independent.co.uk

What a difference 2 weeks makes?

Politicians suggests something but they're deemed on the wrong side and they couldn't possibly know anything and it's all conspiracy theories and we the press know better. Then 2 weeks on it's looking like he wasn't far off base with the claims.

 

[Hawki]

You seem to be implying that biases magically go away when you hire someone. Which contradict you first statement

I don't know how you read that and got that impression, but no, biaises don't go away after you hire someone. However, once you're hired, you're already 'in.'

I can talk from plenty of experience that I'd rather have a job which involves working alongside assholes than being free from those assholes at the cost of being unemployed.

 

[Trunkage]

I don't know how you read that and got that impression, but no, biaises don't go away after you hire someone. However, once you're hired, you're already 'in.'

I can talk from plenty of experience that I'd rather have a job which involves working alongside assholes than being free from those assholes at the cost of being unemployed.

Alongside?

Does the person who hires you for a position normally work alongside you? What kind of wierd organization do you work for?

Because, in the real world, the persom who hires you tends to be your BOSS, not someone you work alongside. Thus any biases will immediately come back into play. And those biases will be used against you. If they are biased, you're very unlikely to get through the probation period. One mistake will lead to disciplinary actions or firing. They can get other employees to turn against you. They dont even have to worry about putting effort in to get you fired. Even if you get through that, they can make sure they cripple your career by blocking access to promotions even if you are worthy. This one in particular, I've personally seen hundreds of times. And when I heard it, it was always based on race, not on the individuals ability. If you leave, they can cripple future job prospects. They can bad mouth you to client or potential employers. Think of cancellers but they are actually in control

What you are suggesting is about as useful as Youtube removing the dislike button. Highly unlikely to help the person who is being targeted. The study was NOT meant to be an example of curing the problem. It was meant to show that there WAS a problem. Slap dash solution don't defeat assholes. And assholes, if they are in positions of power, can destroy your life

 

[tstorm823]

Alongside?

Does the person who hires you for a position normally work alongside you? What kind of wierd organization do you work for?

Every job I've ever had, from a small family business to UPS, every boss who got to put the final stamp on hiring was ultimately also someone right in the thick of the work when things got busy. I would say I worked alongside every boss I've ever had.

 

[Hawki]

Alongside?

Does the person who hires you for a position normally work alongside you? What kind of wierd organization do you work for?

Alongside, sometimes yes, sometimes no, and to various extents. That's pretty common in my experience.

In case you're wondering, I work in libraries. The people who were there at the hiring process in at least one network I see on a semi-regular basis, and on a completely regular basis for workplace evaluation.

Because, in the real world, the persom who hires you tends to be your BOSS, not someone you work alongside. Thus any biases will immediately come back into play. And those biases will be used against you. If they are biased, you're very unlikely to get through the probation period. One mistake will lead to disciplinary actions or firing. They can get other employees to turn against you. They dont even have to worry about putting effort in to get you fired. Even if you get through that, they can make sure they cripple your career by blocking access to promotions even if you are worthy. This one in particular, I've personally seen hundreds of times. And when I heard it, it was always based on race, not on the individuals ability. If you leave, they can cripple future job prospects. They can bad mouth you to client or potential employers. Think of cancellers but they are actually in control

You don't need to tell me about probation periods and losing jobs - before I got steady employment with libraries, I had a series of short-term jobs with various bosses, some of whom were better than others. But good luck in proving that any poor treatment or dismissal was based on bias. I've had people complain of bias when I felt the treatment was appropriate, and I've felt singled out when I'm sure others would feel that I wasn't.

I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't had some experience at work where they felt they were being unfairly treated, or haven't had frustrations with people above you, or co-workers, but that's life in general. Wish it wasn't, but it is.

What you are suggesting is about as useful as Youtube removing the dislike button. Highly unlikely to help the person who is being targeted. The study was NOT meant to be an example of curing the problem. It was meant to show that there WAS a problem. Slap dash solution don't defeat assholes. And assholes, if they are in positions of power, can destroy your life

Except there's always going to be assholes. That's why HR exists.

Blind resumes are a way of removing assholery and bias entirely with the application stage.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Anyway, I briefly looked at the articles, and, okay, sure, they say the same thing. Not disputing that. But it's the first time I've encountered any of the stereotypes listed bar the most vague of awarenesses. I mean, what struck me as a case of cultural divergence is that if I say "black sapphire" here for instance, someone's first thought is probably going to be of the film The Sapphires.

I find this argument kind of interesting. I've noticed it before, but this one is so blatant that I feel compelled to comment on it.

The idea that black people are less reasonable and more emotionally driven than white people is one most people openly believed was true until quite recently. Even after psychologists began to show that racial differences in intelligence didn't really exist, the assumption of emotionally driven black psychology never really went away. If anything, the civil rights movement intensified the idea of black people as angry, because that happens to any group arguing against its own mistreatment.

Assumptions about black people's emotions are still literally everywhere. It's why so many memes feature images of black people, it's why white people online sometimes affect mangled AAVE when they want to express how strongly they feel about something. The assumption is that it's normal for black people to have strong emotions, including anger, and unlike white anger black anger can be funny because it's excessive, it's silly and performative. It's not something that has to be taken seriously (unless it happens in person, and then it's deeply threatening and someone's probably calling the cops). Many of the black characters we see in media and enjoy are ultimately stereotypes to one degree or another, including stereotypes about angry black people. Even if they're not, they often end up being read through those stereotypes anyway.

So what you're saying when you say "I've never encountered these stereotypes" is not that you've never encountered them. You absolutely have. It's that you've never been aware of them, and that's not a good thing. That doesn't suggest that you've somehow overcome racism by virtue of being an innocent widdle baby who through pure naiveite has escaped any cultural education whatsoever, it suggests that you've just absorbed everything you see as normal, as not worth thinking about or even noticing, and that you're willing to argue to preserve that ignorance dressed up as innocence even if it means denying someone else's lived experience.

It's just not a good look, or a good argument.

 

[BrawlMan]

I find this argument kind of interesting. I've noticed it before, but this one is so blatant that I feel compelled to comment on it.

The idea that black people are less reasonable and more emotionally driven than white people is one most people openly believed was true until quite recently. Even after psychologists began to show that racial differences in intelligence didn't really exist, the assumption of emotionally driven black psychology never really went away. If anything, the civil rights movement intensified the idea of black people as angry, because that happens to any group arguing against its own mistreatment.

Assumptions about black people's emotions are still literally everywhere. It's why so many memes feature images of black people, it's why white people online sometimes affect mangled AAVE when they want to express how strongly they feel about something. The assumption is that it's normal for black people to have strong emotions, including anger, and unlike white anger black anger can be funny because it's excessive, it's silly and performative. It's not something that has to be taken seriously (unless it happens in person, and then it's deeply threatening and someone's probably calling the cops). Many of the black characters we see in media and enjoy are ultimately stereotypes to one degree or another, including stereotypes about angry black people. Even if they're not, they often end up being read through those stereotypes anyway.

So what you're saying when you say "I've never encountered these stereotypes" is not that you've never encountered them. You absolutely have. It's that you've never been aware of them, and that's not a good thing. That doesn't suggest that you've somehow overcome racism by virtue of being an innocent widdle baby who through pure naiveite has escaped any cultural education whatsoever, it suggests that you've just absorbed everything you see as normal, as not worth thinking about or even noticing, and that you're willing to argue to preserve that ignorance dressed up as innocence even if it means denying someone else's lived experience.

It's just not a good look, or a good argument.

​

 

[Satinavian]

So what you're saying when you say "I've never encountered these stereotypes" is not that you've never encountered them. You absolutely have. It's that you've never been aware of them, and that's not a good thing. That doesn't suggest that you've somehow overcome racism by virtue of being an innocent widdle baby who through pure naiveite has escaped any cultural education whatsoever, it suggests that you've just absorbed everything you see as normal, as not worth thinking about or even noticing, and that you're willing to argue to preserve that ignorance dressed up as innocence even if it means denying someone else's lived experience.

Or maybe he is Australian and while Australia sure has more than enough racism controversies and stereotypes those are not necessarily identical to American ones or informed by the US civil rights movement.

"Western culture" is a myth.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Or maybe he is Australian and while Australia sure has more than enough racism controversies and stereotypes those are not necessarily identical to American ones or informed by the US civil rights movement.

"Western culture" is a myth.

Terminal Blue is not American neither, if I remember correctly.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Terminal Blue is not American neither, if I remember correctly.

Correct, I'm not.

"Western culture" is a myth, but it's a myth that was created by and reflects a very real feature of our postcolonial world, namely that certain countries predominantly populated by white people (and particularly by English speaking white people) have come to understand themselves as possessing a shared cultural identity. Western culture being a myth also doesn't change the fact that US cultural hegemony is very real. A significant proportion of the media English-speaking people consume is going to be from the US.

What happens in the US influences the rest of the world through cultural products. Most of us have just become used to it at this point, we accept that when we go see a major film or pick up a AAA video game it's probably going to have a US-centric perspective.

And yes, Australia is a bit different in that it has an indigenous black population. But, while as a non-Australian I feel a bit weird about making this assumption, I would absolutely take the bet that the average white Australian has seen far more representations of black Americans in media than they have indigenous Australians, and is intimately familiar with the trends surrounding the portrayal of black Americans in media.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Does this have anywhere near the same impact without the racial trope?


Of course it doesn't.

 

[Kwak]

Or maybe he is Australian and while Australia sure has more than enough racism controversies and stereotypes those are not necessarily identical to American ones or informed by the US civil rights movement.

"Western culture" is a myth.

Western media saturation (via capitalism) ensures those stereotypes get exposure pretty much everywhere.