Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Gergar12

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Oh, the idea of getting rid of candidates because their policies are too progressive...that hasn't put the Dems in a good place. OTOH, the idea that this election is to stave off disaster, need to get a win...well, assuming there still are elections, that's going to be true. Again.
Getting rid of guns... puts the power of force into the Trump administration. ICE has had to deport people not from homes but from, like, courthouses and targets of opportunities due to US firearms. Imagine if no one had a gun, and they could raid entire apartment blocks for anyone that looks Central American or Venezuelan without preparation. By the time a judge complains, they will already be in an El Salvadorian prison camp.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Getting rid of guns... puts the power of force into the Trump administration. ICE has had to deport people not from homes but from, like, courthouses and targets of opportunities due to US firearms. Imagine if no one had a gun, and they could raid entire apartment blocks for anyone that looks Central American or Venezuelan without preparation. By the time a judge complains, they will already be in an El Salvadorian prison camp.
Ok, there's that (assuming he's trying to ban, not restrict, guns), but I'm not seeing gun possessing people defending themselves from ICE etc.
 

Gergar12

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Ok, there's that (assuming he's trying to ban, not restrict, guns), but I'm not seeing gun possessing people defending themselves from ICE etc.
That's because ICE is not doing mass raids on apartment buildings in the middle of the night. But just in case fascism comes to the US it will be liberal gun owners who will be able to protect themselves, their family, and friends with guns.

Edit: Also, most guns are semi-automatic, and the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the US.
 

Phoenixmgs

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No, it absolutely doesn't. The Constitution guarantees Habeas, not only for citizens, and explicitly bars the government from suspending it except in exceptional grounds of rebellion or war.



Funny, then, that the Trump administration rushed these deportations through, to try to get then out before the courts could block them. Funny also that Trump responded to the court's decision by slandering the judge.



...and none of them allow habeas to be bypassed or for these things to be done with zero notice of a change in status.

Trump used the AEA. Federal Court ruled that's unlawful. You speculating (incorrectly) that he could have used alternative methods-- methods you can't even identify!-- is rather irrelevant.
Habeas doesn't apply in this situation is my point.

Funny, then, that you guys claimed Trump would ignore court orders and just do it anyway. I said that was stupid and not gonna happen. The stuff you guys worry about that's not gonna happen is beyond ridiculous.

Again, habeas does not apply...
 

Silvanus

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Habeas doesn't apply in this situation is my point.
Supreme Court ruling, word for word: "Challenges to removal under the AEA must be brought in habeas".

Funny, then, that you guys claimed Trump would ignore court orders and just do it anyway. I said that was stupid and not gonna happen. The stuff you guys worry about that's not gonna happen is beyond ridiculous.
Court said not to take off. Planes took off.
Court said planes have to turn back if they've already taken off. Planes did not do so.
Court said to return the wrongly imprisoned. Trump said he could, but won't.
 

Agema

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But just in case fascism comes to the US it will be liberal gun owners who will be able to protect themselves, their family, and friends with guns.
It almost certainly won't though.

In fascism, what happens is a squad of paramilitary police, agents, or actual military turn up mob handed with overwhelming force. Any gun owner of any political stripe that resists is most likely to end up dead - plus quite possibly their family and friends as collateral damage in the shoot-out.

A well-trained gun owner backed up by a suitably large squad of other well-trained gun owners capable of resisting a squad of fascists would last only as long as it took the fascists to get even more overwhelming force: heavy weapons, tanks, air support.

Enough well trained and organised gun-owners could run some sort of guerrilla resistance movement with hit and run tactics. But I'm not quite sure that this qualifies as protecting themselves, their family and friends, because they'd probably be a great deal safer through meek compliance with the regime.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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Funny, then, that you guys claimed Trump would ignore court orders and just do it anyway. I said that was stupid and not gonna happen.
The fact that it did happen notwithstanding....

A well-trained gun owner backed up by a suitably large squad of other well-trained gun owners capable of resisting a squad of fascists would last only as long as it took the fascists to get even more overwhelming force: heavy weapons, tanks, air support.
See also: Ruby Ridge and Waco, where the government wasn't overtly trying to kill everyone involved.
 
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BrawlMan

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Funny, then, that you guys claimed Trump would ignore court orders and just do it anyway. I said that was stupid and not gonna happen. The stuff you guys worry about that's not gonna happen is beyond ridiculous
And as always, you're foolish enough to believe his bullshit and he did it anyway.
 

Schadrach

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Edit: Also, most guns are semi-automatic, and the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the US.
This. People act like the AR-15 is some sort of obscure rifle with no use outside of public mass shootings, but AR-15 and workalikes are the most popular kind of rifle in the US, by a decent margin. In part because they're flexible, with lots of interchangeable parts and variations of those parts made by a bunch of manufacturers that mean you can essentially make it whatever you need it to be (hence the "modular" in the term modular sporting rifle). It's almost more of a platform than a specific firearm.

They get used in public mass shootings not because they're especially well suited to them but because those kind of shootings don't generally involve someone purpose buying a gun to do them with, but more often either using a gun they already have or a weapon of opportunity (a family member not properly securing their firearm, for example). IOW, they're popular in mass shootings because they're popular generally.

If you were purpose-buying guns for a mass shooting, it would make more sense to get handguns (most common homicide weapon in the US by a huge margin) or (borderline to) short rifles, something like a PS90 (civilian version of the P90, a rifle designed for urban combat) that you can get 30- and 50-round magazines for, can change magazines extremely quickly with some practice, and is quite concealable which means it's less likely someone will realize you've got a gun until you pull it out and start shooting and is relatively easy to modify for full auto fire on top of it all.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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This. People act like the AR-15 is some sort of obscure rifle with no use outside of public mass shootings, but AR-15 and workalikes are the most popular kind of rifle in the US, by a decent margin.
It also has the "cache" of having heavily influenced the M16 and M4, both used by the US military for decades and therefore seen as "freedom's arsenal". (The NRA openly called it "America's rifle".)
 
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Gergar12

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It almost certainly won't though.

In fascism, what happens is a squad of paramilitary police, agents, or actual military turn up mob handed with overwhelming force. Any gun owner of any political stripe that resists is most likely to end up dead - plus quite possibly their family and friends as collateral damage in the shoot-out.

A well-trained gun owner backed up by a suitably large squad of other well-trained gun owners capable of resisting a squad of fascists would last only as long as it took the fascists to get even more overwhelming force: heavy weapons, tanks, air support.

Enough well trained and organised gun-owners could run some sort of guerrilla resistance movement with hit and run tactics. But I'm not quite sure that this qualifies as protecting themselves, their family and friends, because they'd probably be a great deal safer through meek compliance with the regime.
What about state governments or paramilitaries?
 

Agema

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What about state governments or paramilitaries?
Let's imagine fascists took over the US federal government. Implicitly, this means at least approximately half the country backed the fascists, so that's how bad it is at the start point. It's unlikely the non-fascists all agree the fascists need to be resisted: a load of them will be too afraid, or think they can follow the laws and systems and prep for the next election, so the non-fascists will be disunified, cautious and indecisive.

This is then where the fascists slowly boil the frog. Gradually soften or erode any forms of resistance: disrupt or disempower resisting state governments, cripple opposition media, suborn the police and courts, establish strong additional power bases outside the state etc (e.g. their own party militia or secret police). Eventually maybe enough non-facsists realise they need to fight... and it's way too late because the systems, networks and resources they needed in order to do so effectively are already gone.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Supreme Court ruling, word for word: "Challenges to removal under the AEA must be brought in habeas".



Court said not to take off. Planes took off.
Court said planes have to turn back if they've already taken off. Planes did not do so.
Court said to return the wrongly imprisoned. Trump said he could, but won't.
I thought habeas was just for imprisonment, not just detention as well. Also, you do realize, none of the illegal immigrants will win writ of habeas corpus, right?

We already covered the plane incident. Surely Trump, the fascist!!!, is still deporting people in the same manner today, right?


The fact that it did happen notwithstanding....
Proof?
 

Trunkage

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Let's imagine fascists took over the US federal government. Implicitly, this means at least approximately half the country backed the fascists, so that's how bad it is at the start point. It's unlikely the non-fascists all agree the fascists need to be resisted: a load of them will be too afraid, or think they can follow the laws and systems and prep for the next election, so the non-fascists will be disunified, cautious and indecisive.

This is then where the fascists slowly boil the frog. Gradually soften or erode any forms of resistance: disrupt or disempower resisting state governments, cripple opposition media, suborn the police and courts, establish strong additional power bases outside the state etc (e.g. their own party militia or secret police). Eventually maybe enough non-facsists realise they need to fight... and it's way too late because the systems, networks and resources they needed in order to do so effectively are already gone.
I don't know if backed is the right word here. You actually don't need a lot of fascist to take over the country. You just need a population that is unwilling to do anything to stop them. Far too many people are willing to let genocides happen as long as its not happening to them

Gregar is very wrong here. And it's more because they've listened to gun toting propagandist. None of these people would stand up to a fascist. They're saying that to look tough. It's a fake identity that falls apart at the smallest inconvenience
 
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Thaluikhain

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Gregar is very wrong here. And it's more because they've listened to gun toting propagandist. None of these people would stand up to a fascist. They're saying that to look tough. It's a fake identity that falls apart at the smallest inconvenience
A lot of then might well support fascism, while claiming to oppose it, though.
 
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Silvanus

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Supreme Court rules again against the administration's efforts to deport Venezuelans.

The Supreme Court's prior ruling (from 7 April, posted earlier in the thread) already stated that detainees ordered deported under AEA must be given notice and the chance to challenge under habeas. This new ruling reiterates these rights, explicitly stating the notice given was insufficient.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Supreme Court rules again against the administration's efforts to deport Venezuelans.

The Supreme Court's prior ruling (from 7 April, posted earlier in the thread) already stated that detainees ordered deported under AEA must be given notice and the chance to challenge under habeas. This new ruling reiterates these rights, explicitly stating the notice given was insufficient.
How dare the court care more about law than the will of Emperor Trump!
 

Gergar12

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No, he isn't(Global Birthrate). And every time this issue gets brought up, people deflect, especially from the center left to the left.

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Agema

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Why does anyone give a shit what Vaush thinks? These people aren't insightful or interesting, they are just marketing campaigns. They have people to go round researching what issues are likely to get attention, and then a schtick to win over some audience share.

* * *

Why is anyone worrying about extinction? Surely we have to realise that extinction by underbreeding is many, many centuries away. If each generation is 75% smaller than the last, and taking 30 years per generation, it would take over 250 years for the population to shrink to 10% of the start point. Essentially, with this model there would still be a billion people on earth in 2300 - that would be similar to 1800, when no-one would say there was a shortage of humans.

There's no reason to worry at this point.

I'll tell you why it matters to some people: misogyny. Basically, some people want women back in the kitchen / bedroom. This is a roundabout way of saying that we need to return to a world where men have jobs and work, and women look after the house and have babies. And quite likely don't vote and can't ask for divorce and can't have abortions etc. too. This is the manosphere attempting to slip one of their obsessions in under the guise of a more universal issue.
 
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