Game mechanics you're glad have (virtually) died.

[Dalisclock]

Oh thank you for reminding me those existed. I actually do love point and click adventures and maybe I am a complete dumbass and not get the solution to them but I do know when a game has a bad case of those.

Namely the fact in King's Quest V in order to beat the entire game you need to save a talking mouse from a cat which feels like a complete background event that you would miss it. Said mouse saves you from some drunks who tie Graham in a basement which requires the mouse to chew through the rope. The fact the game is completely unwinnable for this random event just kind of ruins it for me. I feel like most games let you figure out the solution eventually without destroying the game and making you go back and lose a ton of progress. It makes me just want to save after every screen or so.

Sierra was full of that shit. Kings Quest in particular, where not only could you die because you didn't see one particular, easily missable detail, you could be fucked hours later by the same token. Notably the infamous "Throw the pie at the yeti" puzzle, where not buying the pie before you go up the mountain and/or eating it when prompted that you're starving can leave you fucked. And there's no way to go back by that point, so you pretty much have to revert to an earlier save(hope you have one).

Codename Iceman had a puzzle that required you to win a dice game several times. Also, if you try to save scum, the game accuses you of cheating and fails you(to make it worse, it's to get a part for the submarine you're on to fix it, from the engineering crew members, who apparently don't feel like fixing their ship is part of their job and the captain AKA you need to do it, but only if you can beat them in a game of chance). And of course, the not quite moon logic, but still dickish bit where you could easily not notice you got the wrong ID card at the beginning and not notice it till hours later when you need it again and there's no way to go back and get it other then start the game over.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that Sierra hates you.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Puzzles in action games like DMC or God of War. They're even kept more to a minimum/simplified or just plain gone. This started with Bayonetta 1, but became more noticeable around 2013-2014 with DmC (only having one puzzle throughout the entire game), Bayo2's being even more simple, and with DMC5 having no puzzles period. I don't mind the change, because honestly, got in the way of the action. At it's worst in these type of games was DMC3, 4, & any of the God of Wars. Especially in DMC4, where you can tell the puzzle well was running dry. Lazy reuse of puzzles being complete time wasters. Yes, I am referring to the dice maze. Once you figure out how the gimmick works, it's surprisingly easy, they should have just done a regular boss rush.

Booooo, the puzzles in God of War were great. It perfectly fit the setting and the character. It highlighted how lethal the world was beyond the monsters, and how crazy (badass) Kratos is for going through all this shit. The Temple of Pandora in God of War 1 wouldn't have been the insane vault that no man could conquer, and that drove its archtect to madness trying to contstruct it, without the puzzles. It was Sen's Fortress before Sen's Fortress.

Puzzles also incite more creative level design, which is likely why Platinum games and Devil May Cry 5 really aren't the greatest at it. I can't think of a Platinum game that doesn't make me feel like I'm wandering around an empty parking lot, except maybe for Astral Chain.

 

[BrawlMan]

Booooo, the puzzles in God of War were great. It perfectly fit the setting and the character. It highlighted how lethal the world was beyond the monsters, and how crazy (badass) Kratos is for going through all this shit. The Temple of Pandora in God of War 1 wouldn't have been the insane vault that no man could conquer, and that drove its archtect to madness trying to contstruct it, without the puzzles. It was Sen's Fortress before Sen's Fortress.

Puzzles also incite more creative level design, which is likely why Platinum games and Devil May Cry 5 really aren't the greatest at it. I can't think of a Platinum game that doesn't make me feel like I'm wandering around an empty parking lot, except maybe for Astral Chain.

I can agree to an extent on the creativity and fitting of certain puzzles, but I just don't like them. I don't find them fun. Yes, Devil May Cry 5 does have its issues, but the combat is so great that the level design is really not a problem. Besides, Platinum can get creative with its level design. See Bayonetta's 1 and 2, and The Wonderful 101.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Came here to say just that. The cinematics in the Deus Ex reboot were so offputting. Really made you feel like you were playing a game made ages ago.

If you mean Human Revolution then yeah. It also had perspective changes for stealth, which were more understandable but still made me feel like I was playing two different games.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

That's untrue, in Jrpgs everything you kill respawns either after some time or once you zone even if they don't use random encounters.

And no you have no idea how the superboss type enemies work lol. They often require you to be multiple tens of levels higher than the final boss.

But why? That's not how they HAVE TO work.

Again, why do superboss endgame type enemies require you to grind to get arbitrary numbers up when they could have numbers and stats that could be defeated with characters that had the numbers and stats to beat the final boss of the story? It's not like you're grinding to get better at combat or develop the right strats to beat the superbosses, you're grinding only so that your numbers allow you to beat the superbosses. Not to mention JRPGs end story bosses are usually literally god or the god of gods or some shit like that. Why didn't the superboss endgame enemies kill the pitiful god before you?

I am fully aware of how JRPGs "work" but they don't have to work like that. Half of JRPG mechanics are literally there to fix other bad game design decisions. The only reason the games have respawning enemies is so the player can grind to beat those endgame superbosses that are set at ridiculous high levels. If those superbosses weren't set at ridiculous high levels, then they player wouldn't need to get their characters to ridiculous high levels to beat them and thus not need enemies to respawn. The reason why random encounters originally existed was due to hardware limitations, why didn't they just go away once the hardware got better? And, then you say, random battles can work because a game like Bravely Default gives the player the option to adjust the encounter rate. However, that's applying a 2nd thing to fix the 1st thing when you can just remove the 1st thing that doesn't work to begin with.

God, we get it, you hate RPGs. Leave the genre alone for the rest of us.

Then why are my most anticipated games Wasteland 3 (waiting on patches to fix things before playing), Baldur's Gate 3, Gamedec, Weird West, and Gloomhaven (when it exits early access)?

You'd be surprised. They are people who only care about the combat, story, and not the puzzles. I've seen and met plenty who don't like puzzles in God of War.

I'm not surprised that puzzles aren't a reason why people like the games. But if you want God of War to be nothing but combat and story, you can go other places and get those things done much better. God of War is kinda like Uncharted in the sense that it's the whole package that makes it worth playing. If you just want a great pure shooter, then why are you playing Uncharted? Same thing with wanting a great spectacle fighter and playing God of War for that because it'll disappoint. Juggling different elements and doing them well is what makes or breaks a God of War or Uncharted game.

 

[SilentPony]

Its not dead, but definitely dying from bloat and rot, but Souls-like games. As much as I don't like Dark Souls 1, I liked Dark Souls 3 and loved Bloodborne. And FromSoftware just does it better than anyone else.
To me other Souls clones took the basic principle, they're difficult games, and just ran with that as if its the only thing needed. So many Souls clones are just hard games, without the lore, the look, the feel, the characters or weapon variety. And it feels lazy. Just ramp up the enemy health or ramp down the player health, boom, it is now a masterpiece like Dark Souls 3.

Also zombie games. I love me a zombie game, but so many devs use zombies as an excuse not to program enemy AI. Why program weapons, tactics, survival skills, ability to interact with objects, and record voices, when you can just smear jam on the models and have them shambling forward going 'BRAINS'. There. It is now fun, like Left 4 Dead 2.

 

[BrawlMan]

But why? That's not how they HAVE TO work.

Again, why do superboss endgame type enemies require you to grind to get arbitrary numbers up when they could have numbers and stats that could be defeated with characters that had the numbers and stats to beat the final boss of the story? It's not like you're grinding to get better at combat or develop the right strats to beat the superbosses, you're grinding only so that your numbers allow you to beat the superbosses. Not to mention JRPGs end story bosses are usually literally god or the god of gods or some shit like that. Why didn't the superboss endgame enemies kill the pitiful god before you?

I am fully aware of how JRPGs "work" but they don't have to work like that. Half of JRPG mechanics are literally there to fix other bad game design decisions. The only reason the games have respawning enemies is so the player can grind to beat those endgame superbosses that are set at ridiculous high levels. If those superbosses weren't set at ridiculous high levels, then they player wouldn't need to get their characters to ridiculous high levels to beat them and thus not need enemies to respawn. The reason why random encounters originally existed was due to hardware limitations, why didn't they just go away once the hardware got better? And, then you say, random battles can work because a game like Bravely Default gives the player the option to adjust the encounter rate. However, that's applying a 2nd thing to fix the 1st thing when you can just remove the 1st thing that doesn't work to begin with.


Then why are my most anticipated games Wasteland 3 (waiting on patches to fix things before playing), Baldur's Gate 3, Gamedec, Weird West, and Gloomhaven (when it exits early access)?


I'm not surprised that puzzles aren't a reason why people like the games. But if you want God of War to be nothing but combat and story, you can go other places and get those things done much better. God of War is kinda like Uncharted in the sense that it's the whole package that makes it worth playing. If you just want a great pure shooter, then why are you playing Uncharted? Same thing with wanting a great spectacle fighter and playing God of War for that because it'll disappoint. Juggling different elements and doing them well is what makes or breaks a God of War or Uncharted game.

That's nice and all, but it doesn't exactly make it right or good. God of War does the spectacle and platforming (mostly) fine, but most of the puzzles are either mediocre, or just tedious and monotonous. A good amount of the puzzles are just some variation of the block pushing puzzle. It didn't help that certain God of War clones were copying the puzzles verbatim. Though there are some that got creative and I give credit to; Dante's Inferno had some creative puzzles. I still don't like that game much either. That's my other problem with the older God of War games, that they're pacing always came to a crawl at the middle or early late area with that much happening. I just feel like you're going to the motions and things start to drag. DMC's 2, 3, and 4 have these to more or lesser extent depending on the game. I'd say out of that series that 4 did it the worst. Followed by 3 with some of its late mission puzzles. Mainly missions 16-18 in the last quarter of the game.

 

[Baffle]

Putting coins in when I die.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

That's nice and all, but it doesn't exactly make it right or good. God of War does the spectacle and platforming (mostly) fine, but most of the puzzles are either mediocre, or just tedious and monotonous. A good amount of the puzzles are just some variation of the block pushing puzzle. It didn't help that certain God of War clones were copying the puzzles verbatim. Though there are some that got creative and I give credit to; Dante's Inferno had some creative puzzles. I still don't like that game much either. That's my other problem with the older God of War games, that they're pacing always came to a crawl at the middle or early late area with that much happening. I just feel like you're going to the motions and things start to drag. Dmc's 2, 3, and 4 have these to more or lesser extent depending on the game. I'd say out of that series that 4 did it the worst. Followed by 3 with some of its late mission puzzles. Mainly missions 16-18 in the last quarter of the game.

I played God of War way back on release and I'd probably need to replay it to refresh my memory on the puzzles but I recall liking them mostly. I never found the actual combat to be anything extraordinary, it was just good enough to be enjoyable while being smooth and polished for what it is. The platforming is the main thing I recall being the worst as I still vividly remember trying to walk on wooden planks and the turning spikes in Hell. The original God of War needed one more boss as I think there's on 3 total but the pacing was solid overall. New God of War was paced horribly IMO. And, the other God of Wars were just shit. I only ever played the demo of Dante's Inferno and it was literally just copy-pasted God of War, even the colors of the chests were the same, so I couldn't care less about it. If you wanna make a game, don't copy something else; make your own game or greatly improve another one at least. That's why I despise souls-likes and stuff like Ubisoft: The Game so much.

 

[BrawlMan]

New God of War was paced horribly IMO.

I disagree. There were a couple of slow moments with the forced walking/unskippable cut-scenes. Thankfully, nearly all of that has been remedied with a patch, so it's not a big deal. At least the slow moments built up suspense and anticipation in 4 than the other GoW sequels/prequels/gaiden games.

I never found the actual combat to be anything extraordinary, it was just good enough to be enjoyable while being smooth and polished for what it is.

The combat is still good and better than most of its clones. Sure, it ain't Bayo or DMC good, but GoW still had a huge influence on other games for better or worse. See DMC4 & 5 (Nero), Bayo herself to an extent, Mad World (though God Hand was a bigger influence), and No More Heroes. Also, you got plenty of sick combo vids of III & 4.

Spoiler: God of War Combo Mad

 

[BrawlMan]

Also zombie games. I love me a zombie game, but so many devs use zombies as an excuse not to program enemy AI. Why program weapons, tactics, survival skills, ability to interact with objects, and record voices, when you can just smear jam on the models and have them shambling forward going 'BRAINS'. There. It is now fun, like Left 4 Dead 2.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I disagree. There were a couple of slow moments with the forced walking/unskippable cut-scenes. Thankfully, nearly all of that has been remedied with a patch, so it's not a big deal. At least the slow moments built up suspense and anticipation in 4 than the other GoW sequels/prequels/gaiden games.

The combat is still good and better than most of its clones. Sure, it ain't Bayo or DMC good, but GoW still had a huge influence on other games for better worst. See DMC4 & 5 (Nero), Bayo herself to an extent, Mad World (though God Hand was a bigger influence), and No More Heroes. Also, you got plenty of sick combo vids of III & 4.

Spoiler: God of War Combo Mad

It wasn't because of that that I found the story poorly paced. It was at least once, maybe even twice, where you think you're on your way to getting to the end (giant's world) and you're told you need another whatchamacallit, it was all very video game-y. That also causes the relationship between Kratos and boy to be stretched thin. Of course, if you stray from the main story path to do optional stuff, the pacing gets worse. The story is just right for your standard movie length.

I've always seen God of War aping (and expanding) Prince of Persia combat. Classic GOW doesn't have near the execution skill to match the cool looking stuff you see on the screen, it's just too easy to perform. Nu-GOW has a far more intricate system combat system let down by the RPG elements and just doing the little things wrong. Due to the RPG level/loot level system, there's times when you can say trip an enemy by throwing your axe and times you can't trip that very same enemy. There's also the whole horrible move-assist issue with both Kratos and the enemy. There's just so much inconsistency. Then, some of the moves you unlock mess up executing other moves control-wise.

 

[Gordon_4]

If you mean Human Revolution then yeah. It also had perspective changes for stealth, which were more understandable but still made me feel like I was playing two different games.

I have literally never had that problem in Human Revolution. The perspective changes fee natural for the sort of movement you’re doing. First person for run and gun, third person for sneaky stealth. Because stealth in first person is fucking shite.

 

[BrawlMan]

you're told you need another whatchamacallit, it was all very video game-y.

I noticed, but it's not that bad for me.

Of course, if you stray from the main story path to do optional stuff, the pacing gets worse.

In your opinion, but nearly all the side quests I was never bored or not having any fun. The one with poison realm can fuck off though.

Classic GOW doesn't have near the execution skill to match the cool looking stuff you see on the screen, it's just too easy to perform.

Tell that combo mad player, because they don't give a shit and will tell you otherwise.

Due to the RPG level/loot level system, there's times when you can say trip an enemy by throwing your axe and times you can't trip that very same enemy. There's also the whole horrible move-assist issue with both Kratos and the enemy. There's just so much inconsistency. Then, some of the moves you unlock mess up executing other moves control-wise.

I already know. Everyone's mentioned it about a 1000 times. There are ways around a lot of what you're talking about. Not a complete fix, but at least you can options and exploits. The RPG loot system I did not like either, and is something I hope they drop in the sequel. Add a jump button and get rid of the enemy magnet issue and I am great to go.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I already know. Everyone's mentioned it about a 1000 times. There are ways around a lot of what you're talking about. Not a complete fix, but at least you can options and exploits. The RPG loot system I did not like either, and is something I hope they drop in the sequel. Add a jump button and get rid of the enemy magnet issue and I am great to go.

They just really need to get rid of or fix the seiór (or however the hell you write that) enemies; the yellow poison guys. They're the fucking worst. Along with to a lesser extent the hellwalkers, they're the guys who pull those long reaching sword swings that can get you caught and kill you very quickly. None of the draugr have those annoying magnetized combos, except maybe for the dual wielding hatchet draugr, and those are STILL better to fight then the poison guys. Then there's the big club wielding dudes who have that three-hit overhead attack that's typically unblockable. And individually they're okay to fight, but you add any more enemies and it becomes a real chore.

So yeah, get rid of or fix those guys at least.

 

[BrawlMan]

They just really need to get rid of or fix the seiór (or however the hell you write that) enemies; the yellow poison guys. They're the fucking worst. Along with to a lesser extent the hellwalkers, they're the guys who pull those long reaching sword swings that can get you caught and kill you very quickly. None of the draugr have those annoying magnetized combos, except maybe for the dual wielding hatchet draugr, and those are STILL better to fight then the poison guys. Then there's the big club wielding dudes who have that three-hit overhead attack that's typically unblockable. And individually they're okay to fight, but you add any more enemies and it becomes a real chore.

So yeah, get rid of or fix those guys at least.

I know if you have a Atreus at near or max stats and use the lighting magic, the poison guys and the hammer guys gets stunned super easily. Especially if you use the magic attack that summons the birds or the boars. Also, for the hammer guys, if you have the amulet that grants you witch time or it's more powerful versions, their attacks are easy to dodge and exploit for free hits. But yeah, I agree, definitely could use a fix.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I know if you have a Atreus at near or max stats and use the lighting magic, the poison guys and the hammer guys gets stunned super easily. Especially if you use the magic attack that summons the birds or the boars. Also, for the hammer guys, if you have the amulet that grants you witch time or it's more powerful versions, their attacks are easy to dodge and exploit for free hits. But yeah, I agree, definitely could use a fix.

Well, it's right after you get to the Lake of Nine where they're the worst. Once you're past Alfheim and you got some better gear it's not so bad. That part where you first meet Sindri and you to fight a whole bunch of poison guys and tatzelwurms at the same time, on Give Me God of War that's just fucking stupid cheap.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

In your opinion, but nearly all the side quests I was never bored or not having any fun. The one with poison realm can fuck off though.

I already know. Everyone's mentioned it about a 1000 times. There are ways around a lot of what you're talking about. Not a complete fix, but at least you can options and exploits. The RPG loot system I did not like either, and is something I hope they drop in the sequel. Add a jump button and get rid of the enemy magnet issue and I am great to go.

I didn't say anything to the quality of the sidequests, it just ruins the pacing of the main story regardless, which itself was stretched thin already. Same thing with Ghost of Tsushima.

I was done with God of War like halfway through because of the junk in its game systems. Why bother putting time into "fixing" such a game when I can go back and play something like Bayo? It's the same reason I don't play any new multiplayer games because older games were better and I play those if I wanna scratch that itch. I very much doubt they're going to remove the loot system because every critic said the game was AMAZING so why would they change anything. The new one will probably be bigger and more bloated; it's AAA so there's like a 90% chance of that being the case. I don't have any faith in Santa Monica making a tight game from a mechanics standpoint because they've never done that outside of the time Jaffe was director.

 

[BrawlMan]

I didn't say anything to the quality of the sidequests, it just ruins the pacing of the main story regardless, which itself was stretched thin already. Same thing with Ghost of Tsushima.

I was done with God of War like halfway through because of the junk in its game systems. Why bother putting time into "fixing" such a game when I can go back and play something like Bayo? It's the same reason I don't play any new multiplayer games because older games were better and I play those if I wanna scratch that itch. I very much doubt they're going to remove the loot system because every critic said the game was AMAZING so why would they change anything. The new one will probably be bigger and more bloated; it's AAA so there's like a 90% chance of that being the case. I don't have any faith in Santa Monica making a tight game from a mechanics standpoint because they've never done that outside of the time Jaffe was director.

Good for you, I don't care. I love God of War 4, Bayonetta, and Devil May Cry. The fact that Bayo 2 happened (Now if Big N & Platinum get off their asses and have an honest to Heavenly Buddah release date and actual gameplay for Bayonetta 3), DMC5 happened, Streets of Rage 4 is a thing (with the brawler genre back in full swing), and that God of War 4 exists makes me a happy guy. Something I thought not possible. Whatever happens in GoW 5, good or bad I will call to it if it bothers me or they did something worse. I will wait and see,. Until then, ciao.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Just throwing my 2 cents in regarding GoW puzzles - I thought the classic games were at their best when they combined them with platforming and combat. It flowed so well, even on the handhelds like the Atlas level in Chains of Olympus for example. They did a good job making levels feel larger than life; Unlocking Pandora's Temple, setting in motion the Steeds of Time, the titan set pieces, etc. I'd put the level design of these games (including Ascension) at a mark that wouldn't be bested until Dark Souls came along, but even that's not comparing apples to apples. DS level design was geared purely towards exploration, whereas GoW's level design had often factored in each of three main tenets: combat, platforming and puzzle solving. Nowhere is this more evident than perhaps the Labyrinth in GoW 3.


Man I gotta run through this game again soon on the Remaster. Looks so crisp and smooth.