Game of Thrones' Brienne of Tarth Joins Cast of Star Wars VII

[jaibryan]

daisy ridley was named right after john boyega and is heavily rumored to be the co lead, so it's fairly progressive in regards to gender to right? i mean one lead role is all a group needs right? you have a legit complaint when it comes to jj and his use of women but i rather enjoyed the new trek movies and both female characters. where you loose me is how star wars treats women. the treated them like that for all 6 six movies, why expect something different now? thats like expecting subway all of the sodden to start serving burgers. that being said, there is nothing wrong with wanting more women in scifi/fantasy lead roles. my problem is with this bs outrage where everyone and their boyfriend points out the 2 to 8 ratio of women to men but didn't even blink at the 1 to 9 ratio of blacks to whites. now those ratios are 4 to 8 and 2 to 10. and once again all i want is a good movie, which should be what we all want but if you're going to get all outraged over a lack of diversity, make sure you stand up for all groups being shorted.

Co-lead a.k.a. probably the Love Interest. Haven't seen that before! And I'm not sure whether you are being sincere about your outrage. There's this weird trend where whenever someone tries to talk of any kind of representation (be it race or gender), there are these weird sniping commenters who bring in other under-represented sects, implying inclusion of one means the exclusion of the rest of them. When people are asking for more diverse roles for women, how do you know that don't include black women? Why should they be mutually exclusive? If you are telling someone you find an old movie refreshing because the black character isn't a stereotypically cussing comedy sidekicks, how would like someone to shit on your argument because the movie doesn't also represent Chinese-Americans?

the treated them like that for all 6 six movies, why expect something different now?

I dunno, because times change and so do expectations? Could you imagine a black lead in a major film like Star Wars back in the 80s? Because some people would like a to see the only important female character in a trilogy not die of a fucking 'broken heart' because of another man while giving birth?

you're getting to my point, why all the outrage over a lack of diversity from any group? every group expect for white males can make an argument. if this movies cast was 7 black males, 1 white male, and 1 female, would you still have the same complaint? or what about 7 women, 1 white man and 1 black man? the cast diversity shouldn't matter. in a world where 90% of movies are crap for a number of reasons do you really want to handicap writers by making them reach some sort of diversity quota? if the story jj has come up with calls for a mostly white male cast, as long as it's good isn't that the only thing that should matter? and say what you will about Padmé, she got more screen time and a more satisfying death than mace.

 

[Erttheking]

you're getting to my point, why all the outrage over a lack of diversity from any group? every group expect for white males can make an argument. if this movies cast was 7 black males, 1 white male, and 1 female, would you still have the same complaint? or what about 7 women, 1 white man and 1 black man? the cast diversity shouldn't matter. in a world where 90% of movies are crap for a number of reasons do you really want to handicap writers by making them reach some sort of diversity quota? if the story jj has come up with calls for a mostly white male cast, as long as it's good isn't that the only thing that should matter? and say what you will about Padmé, she got more screen time and a more satisfying death than mace.

The thing is, we're not going up to random shows and shouting "WHERE DIVERSITY!" it's about shows that have shown history of fucking up in the past with this kind of thing. I even saw one comment that said that odds are that Lupita would be playing Lando Calrissian is real, because all those jokes about Lando being the only black person in the galaxy came from somewhere. And the women, Jesus Christ that's fucking embarrassing. The best character we got from Star Wars that was female was Leia, who did manage to hold her own, but she was on her own in a big world and then the prequels came along and decided to fuck that up. Sorry, but Padme just isn't Leia. And it's being directed by J.J. Abrams, and after Into Darkness, him fucking up female characters is very likely, so concern is justified.

And I always hear talk of a quota when it comes to diversity, yet I don't seem to recall anyone even establishing this quota, so no, we are not advocating for a quota. We're criticizing this movie for it's depiction of women because we have reason to believe that it'll fuck it up.

Arguably yes. The problem is that most people aren't convinced it'll be good. That's the deal breaker here.

Quantity vs quality my friend.

 

[jaibryan]

you're getting to my point, why all the outrage over a lack of diversity from any group? every group expect for white males can make an argument. if this movies cast was 7 black males, 1 white male, and 1 female, would you still have the same complaint? or what about 7 women, 1 white man and 1 black man? the cast diversity shouldn't matter. in a world where 90% of movies are crap for a number of reasons do you really want to handicap writers by making them reach some sort of diversity quota? if the story jj has come up with calls for a mostly white male cast, as long as it's good isn't that the only thing that should matter? and say what you will about Padmé, she got more screen time and a more satisfying death than mace.

The thing is, we're not going up to random shows and shouting "WHERE DIVERSITY!" it's about shows that have shown history of fucking up in the past with this kind of thing. I even saw one comment that said that odds are that Lupita would be playing Lando Calrissian is real, because all those jokes about Lando being the only black person in the galaxy came from somewhere. And the women, Jesus Christ that's fucking embarrassing. The best character we got from Star Wars that was female was Leia, who did manage to hold her own, but she was on her own in a big world and then the prequels came along and decided to fuck that up. Sorry, but Padme just isn't Leia. And it's being directed by J.J. Abrams, and after Into Darkness, him fucking up female characters is very likely, so concern is justified.

And I always hear talk of a quota when it comes to diversity, yet I don't seem to recall anyone even establishing this quota, so no, we are not advocating for a quota. We're criticizing this movie for it's depiction of women because we have reason to believe that it'll fuck it up.

Arguably yes. The problem is that most people aren't convinced it'll be good. That's the deal breaker here.

Quantity vs quality my friend.

that's a valid argument. but most people are just talking about the amount of women, not their roles or quality of roles. if the argument was how they will be used, i can get behind that.

 

[RA92]

you're getting to my point

I wasn't getting to your point. I was pointing out the red herring you are using to drive the conversation off the main topic.

if this movies cast was 7 black males, 1 white male, and 1 female, would you still have the same complaint? or what about 7 women, 1 white man and 1 black man?



If we lived in a universe where Hollywood was run by black women, and 90% of all Hollywood movies starred black women as protagonists, then of course I would complain about the lack of white men in cinemas. But we don't live in that universe, do we?


the cast diversity shouldn't matter. in a world where 90% of movies are crap for a number of reasons do you really want to handicap writers by making them reach some sort of diversity quota?

That's like someone in 2011 telling me not to complain about nearly all major game developers seemingly only making shooters, as by asking them to make something new and different I'm supposedly handicapping them.

You have white males as leads most of the time in mainstream cinema because it's safe and that's what the suits want, not because of any creative decisions. Otherwise we wouldn't have terrible cliches being played over and over again.



if the story jj has come up with calls for a mostly white male cast, as long as it's good isn't that the only thing that should matter?


No. Star Wars is a big franchise with a huge cultural impact, and thus have certain responsibilities. If you're a kid and you want to get a Star Wars costume or your Halloween, you are spoiled for choice. If you're a girl, though...?

Trends in pop culture reflects those of the real world, and when last year only <url=http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2013_It%27s_a_Man%27s_World_Report.pdf>15% of protagonists were female and consisted of only 30% of speaking characters, you have a clear picture of marginalization (especially considering women consist of 51% of the population).

People keep bringing up the term 'forced inclusion', but I really feel like asking why they are so uncomfortable with people asking to include more roles for women. What is it about women that they feel is so unift for fiction, that the mere inclusion of them is seen as 'politically correct'?


and say what you will about Padmé, she got more screen time and a more satisfying death than mace.

I don't even... Windu was a badass, who nearly took down the main villain of the Star Wars universe, only killed through betrayal. Padme died because she 'lost the will to live'. Some real agency of character there.

most people are just talking about the amount of women, not their roles or quality of roles. if the argument was how they will be used, i can get behind that.

I originally wasn't talking about the amount of women. I was arguing that if there's only one female character, she's probably there as a love interest; a few more characters meant more diverse roles, which is what people are asking for. When I mentioned John Boyega, it was you who made it an argument about numbers and the ratio of white to black men.

 

[jaibryan]

I wasn't getting to your point. I was pointing out the red herring you are using to drive the conversation off the main topic.


That's like someone in 2011 telling me not to complain about nearly all major game developers seemingly only making shooters, as by asking them to make something new and different I'm supposedly handicapping them.

You have white males as leads most of the time in mainstream cinema because it's safe and that's what the suits want, not because of any creative decisions. Otherwise we wouldn't have terrible cliches being played over and over again.

No. Star Wars is a big franchise with a huge cultural impact, and thus have certain responsibilities. If you're a kid and you want to get a Star Wars costume or your Halloween, you are spoiled for choice. If you're a girl, though...?

Trends in pop culture reflects those of the real world, and when last year only <url=http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/files/2013_It%27s_a_Man%27s_World_Report.pdf>15% of protagonists were female and consisted of only 30% of speaking characters, you have a clear picture of marginalization (especially considering women consist of 51% of the population).

People keep bringing up the term 'forced inclusion', but I really feel like asking why they are so uncomfortable with people asking to include more roles for women. What is it about women that they feel is so unift for fiction, that the mere inclusion of them is seen as 'politically correct'?

when you start saying that a good movie isn't the only thing that matters, you loose me completely. george lucas, Kathleen Kennedy, jj abrams, disney and film makers in general don't owe any group anything. they give us entertainment: if you like it, you keep watching, if you don't, than don't. starwars has no responsibility to be inclusive because movies aren't meant to be inclusive. they can be, but they are made to entertain, that's all. if we get a 10 star movie, we can't complain about anything. there are plenty of other franchises out there that are way more inclusive. if that's the main thing your looking for, look at one of them. boys like buffy, legend of korra and power puff girls despite the lack of quality male characters(in my opinion), why can't women do the same? and it wouldn't be like asking them them to make something different than a shooter, it would be like asking them to put in elements from every game genre in their game to be inclusive. and people bring up forced inclusion because it is forced inclusion. the story teller has a story they want to tell but people keep bringing up "why can't you put more women in this?" that's forcing the issue, you can't tell someone to change their story.